[SKC-auto]

Hemanth or anyone let us know what was discussed on Saturday and the conclusion.

[hemanth.anand]

So here is my report from the 28.01.2020 event at Delhi

My flight was at 6:30AM. I got up at 2AM, got ready and left home at 3AM in our E2O+. When I came to the car, I took out the charging cable and put it in the boot and shut the door. Immediately I realised that I had put the key also in the boot!! But thanks to the app on my phone I could unlock it using and get it.
This was the first time I was taking the E2O+ to the airport…it is 45kms from my home. Drove only in F mode and not in B mode to conserve energy to return back home in 1 charge in the Worst case. I had called the airport parking team the previous day and confirmed that there is a charging point, but I still didn’t want to take any chances. I went there and found the slot. it was painted in Blue, and “Reserved” was written. but they had put barricades, luggage carts and everything like a dump yard. I moved the barricades and all the carts away and parked my car. Pulled out the charging plug but it wasn’t charging. There was a Fuse somewhere inside the junction box which I found out and after I turned it on, it started charging. I was relieved that I can go back home in B mode. There was 60kms of range left (45kms journey had consumed 50kms of range) which was actually very good for the E2O.
I realized here that I had forgotten my jacket at home and I was worried of the Dilli ki Sardi. But since I'd be mostly indoors, it was okay I felt



Met some other owners like me who were also invited and also Ather co-founder Swapnil at the airport. As soon as I landed, one of the Ather team members received us and we were taken to The Lalit in couple of Innovas. enroute we were discussing about the probable price of 450x…our guesses varied from 125000 to 150000. It was raining and luckily not very cold. Met Ather customer #1 Aditya too and other people from Chennai.

The event started a bit late than scheduled but it gave some time to have some tea and freshen up. Very soon we were seated and the unveil started.



Tarun explained the journey so far - the funding, the team the patents etc. The future roadmap was also shown about expanding to 10 cities by 2021 and 24 cities in 2022. There was a special mention of the community. many owners starred in a short movie. My watch skin, My helmet, My nephew’s Rakhi and his Ather themed birthday cake made a special appearance on the stage.





With all those done, It was time for the product to take centre stage. Tarun started with a comparison to the market benchmark - Activa and how 450 was faster off the blocks. Then it was time for the 450x specs (or rather the improvement over 450).

• 18650 to 21700 form factor cells.
• Range increase of 107kms to 116 kms ARAI & 75kms to 85 kms in Trurange (Mainly because of the new cells)
• Peak power from 5.4Kw to 6Kw
• Peak torque from 20.5Nm to 26Nm
• Weight reduction by 10 Kgs to 108kgs…current 450 had already reduced to 110kg compared to my 450
• A new Warp mode…With this, The 450x would be the fastest scooter in India
• Charging time at grid increased by by 50% to 1.5km/min…nice but I don’t use the grid at all!
• Android open source OS with snapdragon processor.
• Bluetooth with calling alerts
• Dark theme
• Smart accessories like smart helmet, TPMS
• Side stand indicator
• Toe/Theft indicator

All these were nice upgrades. The ad film of the 450x astarted and the scooters arrived on stage in all 3 shades. Black and yellow looked mean, White and green looked beautiful as usual but a bit more sportier with the all-black handle cover, Green and red looked gaudy and not very nice.







Tarun then explained that there would be two variants or subscription models similar to a netflix subscription. Ather 450 itself had some new ownership models that were never heard of in the 2 wheeler segment earlier (lease, service subscription etc). This was taking it to the next level. Even performance would change according to the subscription model. Plus and Pro as they like to call it.

The Plus and Pro are basically the same scooter with different performance maps. It is something like the ‘Plus’ being the successor of 340 and the ‘Pro’ is the successor of 450. If you opt for the Plus plan, the map will restrict many parameters and if you opt for Pro, the full potential of the scooter will be unlocked. I guess it will be done through OTA updates.
For example, when I see the spec sheet of the 450x, only installed capacity of the battery is mentioned (2.9kwh). In the 450 spec sheet they had 2.7kwh installed capacity and 2.4kwh usable capacity. I guess Pro plan lets you use 100% capacity and in Plus plan, only 80% of battery is usable.





Then came the pricing part. When Tarun told that the 450x would cost 99000 and I was like "Whoa!". But then the catch was it would cost 1699 for Pro and 1999 for Plus. The immediate question I got was "How will this work?" He went on to explain that users can change this anytime they want and pause it when they go for vacation may be. “Interesting” I thought. He told that battery maintenance, replacement and everything would be taken care of by Ather under this plan. Which means users would literally get infinite warranty of the battery and they need not worry about degradation and replacement after 3 years.
These subscriptions never suit me personally…be it Netflix or anything. I don’t have Netflix or Hotstar subscriptions, I have Amazon prime only because Airtel gave it for free. I still have a DTH connection. I wanted to know the outright cost. He told that users can buy outright at ₹1,49,999 for Plus and ₹1,59,999 for Pro. Tarun told that outright purchase would mean that battery warranty would be only the standard 3 years that’s available for 450 right now. I was like "Thankfully I got it in the initial batches"

Pricing was not very important for me to be frank. I was more interested to see what upgrade programs that 450 owners like us would be getting. Sadly and surprisingly there was no mention of this in the event.
Q&A started and someone asked about the upgrade program and it was told that it will be revealed later.
Someone asked if these subscriptions also cover the service and data like for the 450, he told yes but again, it was followed with “more on that later”
Someone asked how will lease work on subscription. Answer was lease will be available but more details will follow in the coming days
For deliveries it was told that 450x would start deliveries from July on wards pan-India
Other questions covered dealer network and how they’ll work on that front
Later we were allowed to take pictures of the scooter but by the time I went none were switched on :frowning:
For me the disappointment was that there were a lot of questions left unanswered or pushed for later.



The price was way higher than my guess and I didn’t know how people would react. But it didn’t take much time to realize when I interacted with others at the event and reading the forums. People were shocked at the price. I felt happy that I got a good deal for my 450. Two of my friends have booked the 450 and were waiting for this. I called them and told that the 450x is wonderful scooter no doubt but expensive at the same time. I told them to decide what they want personally from the scooter. One guy immediately completed the payment for the 450 and cancelled his 450x pre-order. the other wanted a high performance scooter and he decided to cancel the 450 order.

In the event we also spoke to Ather team and What I could gather that the 450x launch was more a business driven step. Ather 450 has not been generating revenue and the investors will obviously want returns and this event was a step in that direction. It works out to around 50k more than the 450 to the end customer making it the most expensive scooter in the country. All parties may be right in their respective position, but after the launch no body was talking about the scooter and everyone is talking about only the price. Everyone is telling “It is a good product no doubt but way too expensive and confusing”

Pricing apart, I loved the matte black colour, I hated the mint shade. It was better in natural light but on stage it was really bad. I could take some pictures of it in natural light after the event





Coming to the competition, everyone is talking about Chetak and iQube. I feel Chetak is the closest to Ather. I don’t think the iQube will even come close to these two, considering it is a hub driven scooter like the crappy Okinawa scooters. My test ride experience of the Chetak is here


By the time I reached airport and boarded the flight the sentiment was loud and clear on the forums. While many were angry with the pricing, I felt disappointed as lot of questions that were supposed to be answered were not.

I came to my E2O+ and saw that it wasn’t charging. I doubted some foul play but everything was untouched. there was 66kms range left. Only 4% SOC and 6kms Range was added since morning. Reason was that the charging plug was in tension and it was pulling a bit and that was enough for it lose contact and stop charging. Wish it had a solenoid lock like Ather! Anyway, it was enough charge but I had to drive back in the F mode. I reached home at 12:45am with 20kms range left. I slept immediately.



The next morning when I woke up at 6, I saw some 100s of messages on the Ather Forum. Glanced through it as every post looked the same. But the silver lining is Ather was still ready to listen. They had invited all Bengaluru owners for an open house in two days. No idea what exactly they had in mind, but “explanation of pricing and taking feedback” is what they’ve mentioned.

If anyone interested in buying the 450x asks me for suggestions, I’ll say the following

Who should buy the 450X?

• Someone who can appreciate the finer details, features and wants a vehicle with good riding experience.
• A gadget person who wants something that leaves a smile to the face after every twist of the throttle.
• Someone who rides more than 30-40km a day, whereby savings on running cost will be available.
• A person ‘wants it’ more than ‘needs it’.

Who shouldn’t buy the 450x?

• Someone who wants something like a PointA-PointB scooter like Activa.
• A person who wants to save money by riding electric.
• Whose usage is just for getting groceries or dropping kids to the bus stop.
• Someone who is comparing the 450X to Chetak or iQube just because they too are electric.

Now for the report of the Open house meeting that Ather had called on Saturday to explain the pricing. I attended to gather information about the upgrade program. The event started at 10:30 and around 50% of existing owners like me and another 50% who had booked the 450X had gathered at Ather's office. The event started with Tarun showing the presentation slides from Delhi and explain the story behind the pricing.

He told that the initial batches of the 450 that were delivered in 2018 costed them roughly 3lakhs and the 450s being sold right now is costing them 1.9lakhs ex-factory. To enter and capture the market, they are selling it at loss. A cost increase was inevitable. But with the new factory and higher expected sales volumes due to more number of cities, they expect it to come down to 1.60lakhs ex-factory. This is exactly the price of the 450xPro. He told that they'll still take a loss even on the Plus variant.

There was a question as to why they are discontinuing the 450, He told that they actually wanted to call the 450x Plus as 450 (which is what it is mostly) itself and 450x Pro as 450x. 450 is kind of not getting discontinued but renamed as 450xPlus

Someone asked "When both Plus and Pro have the same hardware, why limit only via software?" He told "1, the software costs money too and 2, they expect people not to go for the Plus variant but if there are sufficient people who would be interested, they'd further make hardware changes (which they don't plan to do right now due to higher complexity in changes) and negate the losses even in that.

Explaining more on the subscription plans, He told that the subscription plans were their idea of removing the customers' anxiety of replacing the battery after warranty. He told that they expect the battery to last for 5 years at least, people need not worry about the replacing it. Anytime the battery degrades below 80%, it would be replaced without any questions asked. basically the upfront payment is the cost of the scooter minus the battery and the subscription fees is the repayment of a virtual loan taken on the battery. He also told that anyone is willing to exit this anytime by paying the differential amount of the battery and own the scooter completely

Regarding the Ather connect that was mentioned as mandatory, is not mandatory but only recommended. If anyone don't want to go for it, he is free but he will lose out on Data, connectivity and other connected features.

Then there was another Ather team member handling sales explaining the upgrade programs. They told non-lease and lease scooters would be treated differently.
Non-Lease: Owners should close finance if any and then get the scooter to Ather where they'll issue a "Health certificate" which gives a buyback value and the buy back agency will buy the scooter at that cost. That can be used to buy the 450x (with of without subscription)
Lease: owners with 1 year lease only can upgrade. They will get the buy back value as per their contract for their 450 (60% of lease downpayment after 1 year and 80% after 2 years). That can be used as down payment for the purchase of 450x
Alternatively Ather would come up with an option for 450 users where they can upgrade only the dashboard and 4G module. The cost of which they told will be announced soon.

The formal session ended with lunch at their canteen and we headed home. many others were asking questions. one-on-one questions later but I came back as I had no more questions. I had expected some really angry people at the event but the environment was calm and cool.

Looking at the, I'm thinking of upgrading only the dashboard and 4G module whenever they come up with it. That upgrade is enough for me. If I upgrade the scooter, I'll loose out on the small portable charger, the good looking home charger, the on-board charger etc.. I'm happy with my scooter as is and it is not making sense to upgrade right now.

[sri_tesla]

Originally Posted by hemanth.anand

He told that the initial batches of the 450 that were delivered in 2018 cost them roughly 3lakhs and the 450s being sold right now is costing them 1.9lakhs ex-factory. To enter and capture the market, they are selling it at loss. A cost increase was inevitable. But with the new factory and higher expected sales volumes due to more number of cities, they expect it to come down to 1.60lakhs ex-factory. This is exactly the price of the 450xPro. He told that they'll still take a loss even on the Plus variant.

Unless he is including the fixed costs of employee wages and plant leases, those numbers seem exorbitant. Assuming electric motor costs and petrol engine costs are equal, only battery pack costs should be extra for Ather. Ather 450 has 2.7 kWh battery. Average battery pack costs in 2018 as per Bloomberg is $180 per kWh and in 2019 its $156. These include cells and BMS, etc... Even if we assume it cost Ater $300 per kWh at pack level, it will be Rs 58,000 for total battery in Ather 450. Another 50,000 for the remaining part of the scooter with the electric motor.

The reason why everyone disappointed with Ather is when they announced Ather 450, they also mentioned that they will release even cheaper models in the next 2-3 years. Tarun himself mentioned in few interviews and also mentioned of their future plans of increasing scale quickly. In fact even just 6 months back, he said they will set up a new plant in 2020 with a capacity of 10 lakhs.

Few observations after following Ather for 4 years:

• I think their fixed costs are high and increasing at a rapid rate. Vehicle manufacturing is extremely business.

• Scale is very important in this industry, especially for companies like Ather who might have hundreds of highly paid engineers (software), it will be much more difficult to run the business.

• Ather is not able to increase the scale due to manufacturing issues, supplier delays, etc... Even today there is months of waiting time after the order even though they are only selling in 2 cities and in limited numbers. Without scale, per unit part costs won't come down.

• Ather has few industry veterans to help in manufacturing and mangement which might have resulted in even higher costs for the company.

• Tarun mentioned immediately after the reveal of 450X that they are planning to raise huge amounts for manufacturing plant. I wonder if Hero will be interested in increasing their stake. Hero already owns 35% of Ather and invested around Rs 330 crores till now.

• Hero motocorp can not use their own Hero brand name for electric vehicles as per the agreement with Hero Electric. So, Ather will be good fit for Hero Motocorp which will give both brand value and technology with Ather. Hero can easily infuse funds into Ather and increase the scale quickly.

[am1m]

Originally Posted by hemanth.anand

Who shouldn’t buy the 450x?

• Someone who wants something like a PointA-PointB scooter like Activa.

You've absolutely nailed it with your report and conclusions, thanks!

Right now, all I'd look for in an EV, 2 or 4 wheeled, is point-a-b. Am sure EVs will get exciting in the days to come, but even the Ather is frankly less exciting than ANY 200-cc+ ICE bike in the market today, so why should I buy one for the rush? The commute is all I'd look for in an EV today and at that price, doesn't make sense at all.

Suspected the 450x must have been an investor/revenue/business driven thing. And yeah, any business needs to make money. But would be great if Ather continues to give a clear picture up front with TCO numbers rather than throwaway answers like 'Apple/Samsung feature/cost' and such nonsense!

[Laxman9192]

All said and done it all comes down to pricing which to be very honest is not competitive, especially considering the fact that it currently caters to only a handful of markets with plans to expand to the rest of the country. The pricing could serve as a deterrent to those prospective markets who hitherto were anticipating Ather's foray.

[pogo0120]

He told that the initial batches of the 450 that were delivered in 2018 costed them roughly 3lakhs and the 450s being sold right now is costing them 1.9lakhs ex-factory. To enter and capture the market, they are selling it at loss. A cost increase was inevitable. But with the new factory and higher expected sales volumes due to more number of cities, they expect it to come down to 1.60lakhs ex-factory.

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motor...ml#post4741190

Well some how, I guessed it. I am rarely right at things, except this one..

How can they do this when eChethak is just around corner? Or did Ather loose money on every 450 they produced and 450x is the realistic pricing of the product? What is happening?

[AnniHilat0R]

So any update on the possible price re-structuring that was being mentioned ?

[motor_breathing]

Originally Posted by hemanth.anand

Who shouldn’t buy the 450x?

• Someone who wants something like a PointA-PointB scooter like Activa.
• A person who wants to save money by riding electric.
• Whose usage is just for getting groceries or dropping kids to the bus stop.
• Someone who is comparing the 450X to Chetak or iQube just because they too are electric.

Thanks a lot for the detailed write up and also the above points . I have booked both 450 and 450X. Two weeks back got a mail about payment window being open for the 450 booking. I have cancelled the 450 because did not want to go for an "old" model when 450x is just around the corner. I have an year+ old TVS Jupiter whose odo reads 1500+kms now. and the suspension is the best for broken roads in my locality. My usage is very minimal, max 1000 Km a year and just use for grocery or 2-5km weekend run about. Was interested in ather for the novelty factor. I haven't cancelled the 450x booking yet. Will take a decision later. My 14year old son is hell bent that I ditch ICE scooter and get electric!!


While booking I was expecting 450X to be around 1.4L maximum.

[Newpunter]

Looks like they are sticking with the same price for now. I have seen a lot of pre-orders get cancelled, but maybe Ather still has a lot of orders that haven't been cancelled yet. So maybe they think they can be profitable with the current orders.

I read all the answers that they have given to the user questions and i understand that they were losing money on every scooter that they were selling. But I still believe that increasing the cost so much is the wrong strategy. Ideally, they should have worked to cut costs elsewhere and possibly remove a few features, to keep the costs low. In that way, they could have sold more volumes and probably made a profit eventually.

With the current strategy, the volumes will come down so much that I doubt they can ever be profitable. The 450 was already a pretty niche vehicle with people losing interest once I told them that the price was more than 1 lakh. At the current price, it is going to be an even smaller niche market for them.

The price increase could probably have been justified if the range had increased to over 100 kms, but the range has hardly increased and in the warp mode, I doubt it would last more than 50 kms. They have concentrated on improving the performance, which maybe impressive for a 1 lakh scooter, but at the price that they are asking, there are much better options. If I'm going to pay 1.6 lakhs for an Ather, why not buy a Pulsar 220 or other 200cc bikes which are faster and cheaper? And they run longer as well, so I can take them out of the city without worrying about getting stranded on the highway.

The only advantage i can see with the 450x compared to the 200cc bikes, are the connected features. I own a 450 and although I love the connected features, they are not features that I cannot live without. They are more for showing off to my friends rather than something that is genuinely useful for me. I do like the option to have OTA updates, but then I would have to pay an extra 400 p.m to get those. In the last 6 months or more of owning the 450, I got barely 2-3 updates and only 1 of those was a major one. So I don't see the value in paying around 5000 rs per year for that.

All in all, I feel that Ather badly miscalculated the price that customers would be willing to pay for their product. The company maybe spending 2 lakhs on building a vehicle, but then, the customer should also feel that the vehicle is worth that much. In this case, for most people that I have talked to, the answer is an emphatic no.

Which is very sad because I want Ather to succeed and believe that they were the ones who kickstarted the electric scooter revolution in India. Before they launched, all we had were crappy Hero electric or Okinawa scooters. Now they have forced Bajaj and TVS to take this market seriously. But there is a serious risk that they might be relegated into a small niche corner of the market.

[XRoader_001]

Ather Energy Ceo Tarun Mehta took to Twitter explaining Ather 450X pricing in form of FAQ , jury will be out on pricing explanation. Its sad that we see everyone discussing the price of Ather 450X rather than its features as super scooter. It seems to me that Ather Energy are under investor pressure. Ather team updated information on Collector's edition as per forum the owners will get One year free of servicing and a design change “Inside out” colours will remain same.

[Romins]

More explanation from Ather CEO. Click here to read the blog.

[hemanth.anand]

Originally Posted by XRoader_001

Ather team updated information on Collector's edition as per forum the owners will get One year free of servicing and a design change “Inside out” colours will remain same.

They told this about the Collector's edition in the Open House last Saturday. The clue they gave was some pictures. Out of the many pictures, I remember the following three.







Many told transparent body but they told no. No idea what exactly it is.

Image source:Google image search

[wheelguy]

Ather Energy to launch TPMS as an accessory for Ather 450X - Link

[hemanth.anand]

The Forum of Ather completed 2 years in August 2020. As some of you may know, I'm one of the five User-Moderators (4 in Bengaluru and 1 in Chennai). Because of this, we were invited to an early trial of Warp mode. On Ganesha Chathurthi day, we were called to Ather's office. We were not informed of the actual agenda. They asked us to come at noon. But being a festival day, one couldn't attend and I asked to reschedule so that we could return home for lunch.

Looking at how how confidential looking it was, I was expecting to see the collector's edition. But when I reached there, I saw a camera crew. We were filmed during our casual chat in face mask+face shield+gloves (which were mandatory). After sometime, We were told that we were invited there to do the warp mode trials as they wanted to give us moderators the first taste of the warp mode! We were taken to their parking lot where 3 450Xs were lined up for us. Two Blacks and a Mint were standing there.

They told that this is the 450x but…without the android dashboard. It was basically a 450 but with the battery pack and the motor of a 450X. We could only test the warp mode and nothing else.

One by one we were told to ride in the warp mode in the parking lot. It was a ~300mtr dash up and down. Took 3 laps and it was just an amazing experience! the vehicle pulls beautifully. The instant torque is beautiful and that too for a scooter! Already the 450 was amazing in Sports mode...the warp mode in 450X is a notch above that.

Later one of us took a 450 for comparison. With the 450 in sports mode and the 450X in warp we had a drag! We also swapped the vehicles but irrespective of the rider, the 450 just could’t catch the 450X.

Obviously, I had two questions. Was the normal 450 given to us purposely slowed down to make the 450x appear faster? Isn’t this too short a ride to feel the scooter?
The second question was answered when we were told that we could keep this 450X for a couple of days. They told they’ll deliver our scooter home while I could ride back in this. Those 2 days would give me time to find answers for my first question. After some formalities and some points to remember, we were ready to go home.

Later in the evening and the next morning, I got enough time to compare the sports mode in my 450 and the new scooter's warp mode. From the spec sheet, the 0-40kmph for the 450 is 3.9s and 3.3s for the 450X. The difference of 0.6s may seem small but on road the difference is considerably more. The ease with which it takes off is just wonderful to see. Although it looks the same, the difference in X is clearly visible! couple of videos that I shot

http://youtu.be/MoeiqkW0J0Q

The difference between 450 in sports and 450X in warp at full throttle

http://youtu.be/dn95esN0DYw

A slo-mo of both scooter together

http://youtu.be/nu_yNaD1inI

and an exaggerated slo-mo

That was pretty much it. Being a beta scooter, the dashboard was same as 450. We couldn’t connect to a mobile app either (which I sorely missed) to check the numbers. It would’ve been good if we could see some more numbers. The portable charger I was given seemed to have some loose connection. only in a particular position, it was charging. it wasn't difficult to find that position though. Therefore I couldn’t track the charging times properly but it seemed similar to the new 450 on sale now. It would've been better if we could also check the Android interface that'll come up in the production model. Last week, these test rides are open to all the Forum members (only scheduled) and next everyone can go and ride it. Even those are without the Android dashboard. So looks like the development is not complete.

Anyway, here are some snaps I took of the Black 450X.

[hemanth.anand]

Today Ather had a live unveil event of the Ather 450X Collector's edition Series 1
I heard that there was a separate event for the press yesterday, but today all the people who had pre-booked the scooter had got an invite wherein the scooter was unveiled and shown to us and the embargo for the press was lifted too.

Collector's edition "Series 1" is a limited edition scooter for people who had pre-booked the scooter when the 450X bookings opened.

The scooter is glossy black with red accents in terms of an additional graphics. The special thing about this limited edition is... In what is probably a first, This scooter will have Translucent panels! This theme is in line with the "Inside-out" theme that was announced sometime back. The below video is what was shared in today's event

http://youtu.be/duX6q5Ppt7A

Ather took a few questions from participants and Some things that I gathered.

• Deliveries will start from November along with 450X
• There will be no difference between the normal 450X is zero.
• The translucent panels are a special grade of Polycarbonate which has better hardness than the ABS panels of 450X. ABS isn't suitable for transparency.
• The translucent panels will not reveal contents in the under seat storage space and privacy isn't compromised. mainly the aluminum frame will be visible
• one year service subscription is included additionally for the Series 1
• Performance tyres "option" (free upgrade at the cost of some Range) will be available from early next year...will not be available from November.
• There is not be a fixed number of units but will be some thousands- produced only till March 2021.
• Accessories (TPMS and Helmet) will also be released next year...each one at different timelines.
• Upgrade plans for existing customers will be announced soon.
• Apart from the looks, Series 1 will be same as 450X.
• The older 450 may still be sold in Bengaluru Chennai and all new cities even after 450X is available. Earlier it was told 450 would be discontinued in Bengaluru and Chennai and won't be available in other cities

I just loved the way it looks. But liking and upgrading are two different things. Waiting for upgrade options that Ather provide to us to take a call.
On the downside, Since there will be a few thousands, exclusivity factor is lost
This is named Series1 and they told there will be next series Collector's editions in future too. So that further takes away the exclusivity.
Translucent panels are harder to maintain than opaque panels. first the scratches on the outside and second the dirt inside will be visible.