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Old 12th January 2020, 01:07   #1
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Default Advice needed on tuning my old Apache RTR 180

Quick back story, had a 2008 model Apache 180 RTR, but went abroad within months of picking it up and in my return 5 years later barely used it.

As of 2017 it had been driven a total of 12k kms, in 2017 I gave the bike to a relative who was looking for a reliable commute, and he has now driven it up to 40k kms. He has in the past 3 years been servicing it regularly (every 6 months) in a TVS centre, changed the clutch, tyres and overhauled the engine in TvS.

He is now picking up a Dominar and I will be getting the bike back. After seeing the threads here on restoration of older (and worse Condition) Yamahas to mint condition, I am not inclined to sell it. I need the following advice

1) can an Apache engine be remapped, what changes can be done to improve power and pick up (no free flows though, at 40 I hate the sound they make, though my pulsar from my college days did have a ff exhaust)

2) the stock tires look skinny, what's a good size / brand to upgrade it to

3) how to treat the rusted exhaust? Is it possible to derust and paint it (my office is in Egmore and near GP road so I can get it done there) or purchase a new one in TVs.

If anyone knows a good mechanic in the Anna Nagar and Egmore area please do let me know.

Idea is to tweak the engine to make it a funner ride and use it for short road trips (150-300kms).
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Old 12th January 2020, 21:53   #2
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Default Re: Advice needed on tuning my old Apache RTR 180

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Originally Posted by Stribog View Post
1) can an Apache engine be remapped, what changes can be done to improve power and pick up (no free flows though, at 40 I hate the sound they make, though my pulsar from my college days did have a ff exhaust)
You can look at reboring instead, but since the bike has not been in your hands for some time - why not first restore it, use it for some time and then decide before doing performance modifications?

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Originally Posted by Stribog View Post
2) the stock tires look skinny, what's a good size / brand to upgrade it to
Have seen RTR guys running 120 section tyres at the rear. I believe the stock tyres are 110?

Stickier compound brings better results than upsizing though.
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Old 12th January 2020, 23:14   #3
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Default Re: Advice needed on tuning my old Apache RTR 180

If I were in your shoes I'd simply get a brand new Apache 200 Cylinder and Head and install it on the RTR180, the carburetor and the exhaust would also be changed with the one on the A200 since you're already contemplating getting a new exhaust.

And since you're installing a new cylinder it is only commonsense to split the case as you're uncertain about the motorcycles history, rebuild from the crank upwards, or better yet get a A200 crankshaft as well.

While you're at it you could get the slipper clutch, though not a personal favourite but if you're into that stuff then all is well.

Once you're done with the engine, before assembly you can get the chassis and swingarm repainted.

And while you're at it change the Swingarm bush, engine mountings, conest and rebuild your forks. Rear suspension can be changed or reused depending on condition, preferably changed.

Change tyres to better compounds don't oversize cause tire size is dependent on rim width and that is something you don't want to mess up. While you're at it replace wheel bearings and brake pads on both ends, inspecting lines and changing fluid goes without saying.

After that you may deal with the cosmetics as you see fit. Change panels and repaint tank if it comes to that, while you have the tank off make sure to change the fuel tap.

Changing all control cables and nitty gritties like the hand grips etc goes without saying at this point.

Now you have what is called a sleeper build!

Looks like an angel, rides likes the devil!

P.S. A friend and fellow enthusiast owns a sleeper P150 UG3 that can clock a true 150kmph on the GPS, and trust me, nothing beats the joy of riding such a motorcycle, especially when some random millenial with his R15 thinks he can smoke you but instead your sleeper ends up crushing his hopes and dreams. Priceless I tell ya!

Have Fun and Ride Safe.

Cheers,
A.P.

Last edited by ashwinprakas : 12th January 2020 at 23:30.
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Old 13th January 2020, 09:46   #4
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Default Re: Advice needed on tuning my old Apache RTR 180

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Originally Posted by ashwinprakas View Post
P.S. A friend and fellow enthusiast owns a sleeper P150 UG3 that can clock a true 150kmph on the GPS, and trust me, nothing beats the joy of riding such a motorcycle, especially when some random millenial with his R15 thinks he can smoke you but instead your sleeper ends up crushing his hopes and dreams. Priceless I tell ya!

Have Fun and Ride Safe.

Cheers,
A.P.
I wonder if it will stop safely from those speeds in an emergency though. Am pretty sure the stock brake set up is not designed for such speeds.

The R15 probably will.
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Old 13th January 2020, 09:58   #5
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Default Re: Advice needed on tuning my old Apache RTR 180

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashwinprakas View Post
If I were in your shoes I'd simply get a brand new Apache 200 Cylinder and Head and install it on the RTR180, the carburetor and the exhaust would also be changed with the one on the A200 since you're already contemplating getting a new exhaust.

And since you're installing a new cylinder it is only commonsense to split the case as you're uncertain about the motorcycles history, rebuild from the crank upwards, or better yet get a A200 crankshaft as well.

While you're at it you could get the slipper clutch, though not a personal favourite but if you're into that stuff then all is well.

Once you're done with the engine, before assembly you can get the chassis and swingarm repainted.

And while you're at it change the Swingarm bush, engine mountings, conest and rebuild your forks. Rear suspension can be changed or reused depending on condition, preferably changed.

Change tyres to better compounds don't oversize cause tire size is dependent on rim width and that is something you don't want to mess up. While you're at it replace wheel bearings and brake pads on both ends, inspecting lines and changing fluid goes without saying.
Ashwin,

The OP's bike was just standing for 2 years and there seems to be no big engine damage. Why this whole re engineering on a bike who's only fault was that it was standing for 2 years?. It seems like you are prescribing a throat operation for a cold . I would would not suggest doing any changes at all and get the bike running for some time and to figure out what needs to be done. Of course , since the exhaust is rusted, i would replace it with an OEM one and fluids needs to be changed ( if required).

@Stribog,
Only one piece of advise, although i doubt it, see if any TVS A.S.S would take this bike for service.

Last edited by srini1785 : 13th January 2020 at 10:05.
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Old 13th January 2020, 10:09   #6
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Default Re: Advice needed on tuning my old Apache RTR 180

If there is any sentimental value I can understand, but if the bike has mostly been used by others, and just standing around, why bother? Would it not be better to pick up a used Duke 200 or R15 and start hacking those up? Atleast with those two bikes you will have the chassis, brakes, suspension and tyres to handle more performance or who knows you might even be satisfied with the performance they offer on their own itself.
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Old 13th January 2020, 13:08   #7
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Default Re: Advice needed on tuning my old Apache RTR 180

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashwinprakas View Post
If I were in your shoes I'd simply get a brand new Apache 200 Cylinder and Head and install it on the RTR180, the carburetor and the exhaust would also be changed with the one on the A200 since you're already contemplating getting a new exhaust.
A.P.
You definitely are the enthusiast aren't you, I had to Google half the words you said

Could I reach out to you via Telegram / Whatsapp? I really want some solid advice on this and it would be easier via text.

Is this okay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
You can look at reboring instead, but since the bike has not been in your hands for some time - why not first restore it, use it for some time and then decide before doing performance modifications?
This is sound advice and am starting with this, Gobumpr has a specific engine reboring pack (4,999) and am getting this done over the weekend post Pongal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by srini1785 View Post
Ashwin,
@Stribog,
Only one piece of advise, although i doubt it, see if any TVS A.S.S would take this bike for service.
Spoke with my regular TVS guys (they service my wife's Wego), and they would be happy to service it regularly. Explained to them I might be getting some basic mods and they said it would void any warranty but then that ship has sailed long ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post
If there is any sentimental value I can understand, but if the bike has mostly been used by others, and just standing around, why bother? Would it not be better to pick up a used Duke 200 or R15 and start hacking those up? Atleast with those two bikes you will have the chassis, brakes, suspension and tyres to handle more performance or who knows you might even be satisfied with the performance they offer on their own itself.
Hey Ishaan, I am planning on eventually picking up the RR310 or Dominar, but my wife / folks have said you ride this consistently for a year, and hit 7-8k kms and we will allow you to buy a nice bike

Jokes aside, I spent a relative bomb on the tyres, HiD set up, a nice helmet when I got back from Europe and then drove 1k km in 2 years or something, so they have a point. The bug has bitten me good this time though.

Also I am completely unused to any bike above 125 cc (Activa) and have not ridden more than a 15 km radius in years. I drove a friends Ninja (baby Ninja) and I really felt out of sorts, even rode my own Apache last week and the gear slotting was all over, and I was not composed at all, so before I invest in a new / good 2nd hand bike, I want to relearn biking.

I plan on spending around 15k for the bike and maybe 10k for decent accessories, bring it to work at least 2 times a week, and a couple of long trips (300km one way) before the summer and then will think of upgrading.
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Old 13th January 2020, 13:43   #8
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Default Re: Advice needed on tuning my old Apache RTR 180

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Originally Posted by Red Liner View Post
I wonder if it will stop safely from those speeds in an emergency though. Am pretty sure the stock brake set up is not designed for such speeds.
The brakes are kept dulled down for a reason as due to the weight of the motorcycle being very less, we have some concerns that need to be rectified, starting with raising the rear end to make the motorcycle more front biased.

We have already installed a RTR petal rotor at the front, the MC would shortly be replaced with the one that came stock on my P220, the caliper is the Bybre unit lifted off another P220. It is decent for the time being, once we have the weight distribution dialed in we can go for better hardware.

Quote:
The R15 probably will.
No doubt about that. The hardware on the R15 front alone costs 12k without the brake line, compared to that the one on my P220 costs about 3k!

Quote:
Originally Posted by srini1785 View Post
Why this whole re engineering on a bike who's only fault was that it was standing for 2 years?.
The OP did mention that he intends to get the motorcycle tricked, so I thought why not invest in reliable OEM parts than go for some half-baked performance kit from one of those Indian Tooners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stribog View Post
You definitely are the enthusiast aren't you, I had to Google half the words you said
Just head to the Fiero thread on xBhp, the enthusiasts there have practical experience with this stuff, you'd get more substantial help from them compared to aspirational motivation from me.

Here's a quote regarding such a conversion of a RTR160 to 200cc using OEM parts;

Quote:
Finally my Apache 160 has been transplanted with RTR 200 4v setup.But bike is not near perfect few things to be sorted out.
Well the RTR 4v isn't a direct bolt-on job for Apache RTR 160/180 and few minor modifications to be done, but for fiero its almost bolt-on Job.
Advice needed on tuning my old Apache RTR 180-img_20180825_153025.jpg
It is always best to stick with OEM parts and only a very few motorcycles have such an option to upgrade with factory parts, so I'd suggest you take advantage of it considering reliability and personal safety into account.

P.S. The minor modification being mentioned here is mostly rerouting the oil passages which aren't that hard a job on the RTR's considering that they have external oil pipes.

Cheers,
A.P.

Last edited by ashwinprakas : 13th January 2020 at 13:48.
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Old 13th January 2020, 15:58   #9
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Default Re: Advice needed on tuning my old Apache RTR 180

@stribog: Since you say you need to readjust yourself to biking and you plan to upgrade in a year or something, I'd say just don't even touch the engine or exhaust for modding at this point.

If I were in your place, I'd just get some basic maintenance done, replace all fluids (engine, brake, suspension), cables and lines(accelerator, clutch, brake), brake pads, sprockets and tires if need be, and just ride. Gets you back into riding for cheap. Even if the engine feels underpowered, it's gonna work out in your favor during the process of refamiliarizing yourself with biking. Maybe get some comfort mods done like seats, usb charger etc.

......

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashwinprakas View Post
Here's a quote regarding such a conversion of a RTR160 to 200cc using OEM parts
Thanks for this. Didn't even think the Fiero thread was still active (I've been a tbhp lurker on and off for years).

We have an old Fiero lying around in the family. Done about 1 lakh fifty km, but barely sees much use these days. I'd been toying around with the idea of injecting some new life into it with A180 engine parts and swingarm, some aftermarket suspension, brake and wheel components from here and there, and turn it into a dual sport. Might look awkward, but I wouldn't mind ugly looks as long as it is a fun ride.

A200 engine being a straight fit is just perfect in this case. Only worried about breaking the bank for all the mods though. And also coming out with a bike that, even after the mods, could perhaps turn out to be a lesser machine in certain aspects than my bonestock impulse. I mean there's bound to be niggles and countless adjustments to set it up right, and in the end may not work out like imagined. But dirt bikes have been done before, and the platform seems so good, it's very tempting to put some money into it and see what can come out.

We also have a 10y/o gs150r that seems like a perfect base to build an "adventure" bike -or in other words, a comfortable tourer- out of.

All I need to do is probably just switch out the suspension for long travel ones, get dual purpose tires, replace the 35w headlight bulb with LEDs, get the plastic skidplate off the xpulse, get a gel seat, and call it done. It's that good a base for the purpose, atleast IMO.

The engine is a gem of tractability, cruisability and also has a fun streak with a peakish powerband (if you can be satisfied with a 150), and I wouldn't want to trade these characteristics for anything. The fuel tank is huge, and the bike comes with a 6th overdrive gear for effortless and efficient cruising. The 18 inch enkei alloy wheels seem overengineered, theyre amazingly tough and have taken an awful amount of off-road beating and mild jumping in their stride, considering they were made for a roadbike (touchwood, I hope it continues to be that way). I won't even consider wire wheels or a bigger wheel at the front. The frame, for being a stressed-member-engine type, has held up well too, afaik.

.....

@ OP, i dont mean to hijack the thread. Just had a gush of enthusiasm that had to find an outlet.
It may be an interesting read for you too.
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Old 13th January 2020, 17:25   #10
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Default Re: Advice needed on tuning my old Apache RTR 180

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Thanks for this. Didn't even think the Fiero thread was still active (I've been a tbhp lurker on and off for years).
......
I am a lurker of the xBhp Fiero thread from as far as I can recall being on Forum's, the enthusiasts who own Fiero's are a class apart when it comes to their knowledge of the motorcycle.

Fiero builds are quite common these days, though upgrading suspension, swing arm and engine seems like the right way to go, I'd not contemplate radical changes, the motorcycle is set up really good to begin with, be it for riding in bad roads or no roads. So why fix something that's not broken?

Quote:
We also have a 10y/o gs150r that seems like a perfect base to build an "adventure" bike -or in other words, a comfortable tourer- out of....
The GS150R is by far one of the better 150's ever rolled out to Indian consumers, its really sad that the first generation units were plagued with rusting issues, it was the only reason I didn't opt for it as my first motorcycle considering that I used to live in a coastal district.

The motorcycle rode like something from a displacement class above, had ample torque to pull city speeds even in taller gears and the ride quality was simply amazing, especially on the highways.

I'd suggest you keep the GS completely stock, it is a potent tourer even in its stock form.

Regards,
A.P.
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Old 13th January 2020, 23:12   #11
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Default Re: Advice needed on tuning my old Apache RTR 180

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Originally Posted by ashwinprakas View Post
Fiero builds are quite common these days, though upgrading suspension, swing arm and engine seems like the right way to go, I'd not contemplate radical changes, the motorcycle is set up really good to begin with, be it for riding in bad roads or no roads. So why fix something that's not broken?
Quote:
I'd suggest you keep the GS completely stock, it is a potent tourer even in its stock form.
Well, my intention for both bikes is to increase their usability/ride-ability, to make them more versatile than they presently are.

I tend to do a lot of riding away from the highways, on secondary roads, go exploring into trails, and things like that. I mean highways are great for covering distance, but you tend to miss out on a lot of cultural and natural/geographical features of a region by sticking only to highways.... stuff like obscure temples or historical structures, beaches or lakes accessible only through tough trails, or maybe just passing through villages connected by heavily pockmarked single lane roads just to take in the air of rural life. Travelling by night along those kinds of unlit rural roads, in pitch dark with just your headlight and sometimes the moonlight to guide you is quite the experience (without taking unnecessary risks, of course, especially when it's easy to get lost even in daylight). Not that it's always great. I've also stumbled into unpleasant, unwanted and sometimes scary things like wild animal carcasses, graveyards, abandoned buildings and colonies, restricted government property, etc. Even got chased by a wild boar once, and a duck another time. : But more often than not, it's fun riding.

I've ridden both of these bikes fairly hard on a lot of rough trails, and they handle them adequately well for being road bikes, especially the gs150r is an unexpectedly graceful performer. But I miss the freedom, comfort and control that something like an impulse can give. I'd be scared to ride these bikes the way I can ride the impulse.The suspension on these bikes also can't withstand off-road abuse for very long. The front suspensions are leaking on both these bikes due to excessive bashing about even though they were worked on just a few thousand km ago. The gs messily bled out the oil in the rear shocks after a jump, and now the suspension action is left only to the spongy springs that make me feel like I'm on a boat. I plan to get them fixed or change them out anyway. I'm thinking I might as well get better parts.

Apart from the mildly radical Apache200 engine on the fiero (now that you've pointed me there), the changes I want are not radical at all. I want a bike that's going to be reliable, and easy to fix anywhere. In low-end equipment I trust. Off the top of my head, i was initially thinking of getting parts off other bikes, mostly the impulse and xpulse. Parts like front suspension, wheels, disc brake setups, levers, handlebar. These parts I know are built to take a fair bit of abuse and come relatively cheap. But if I can justify the extra spend, I could go with some specific aftermarket equipment like suspension from professionals like Zedling. I've read and heard good things about them.

The thing I'm apprehensive about is getting the engine built properly. And there's the worry of getting everything else to work as per intent. It might take a quite a bit of trial and error, and effort gone into massaging niggles, and the results might possibly still turn out to be underwhelming in relation to the effort.

If I act on this, I'll probably take it slow and easy, one at a time, instead of jumping into it all at once. Maybe I can start with the wheels, brakes and swing-arm, and see how that goes. The bike is already running a non stock 16inch wheel at the rear, and 17 inch stock front wheel. So, a 19/17 or 18/17 combination shouldn't upset it much I'm guessing.

As for the gs, the only major change would be long travel suspension, front and back. In my mind, that would complete its design purpose, making it kind of a mini v-strom, but without the v.

I also want a better sitting position for myself with my back a bit more upright. I'm around 6ft tall and I tend to slump into a hunched position while riding these bikes.

Last edited by BlackPearl : 13th January 2020 at 23:20. Reason: Fixed broken quotes. Thanks
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Old 15th January 2020, 18:22   #12
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Default Re: Advice needed on tuning my old Apache RTR 180

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stribog View Post
1) can an Apache engine be remapped, what changes can be done to improve power and pick up (no free flows though, at 40 I hate the sound they make, though my pulsar from my college days did have a ff exhaust)
Went through your posts and i would say do not remap it since in a years time, your family will let you acquire a "nice bike".

Quote:
2) the stock tires look skinny, what's a good size / brand to upgrade it to
They look skinny but then so did the tyres on the gen 1 Yamaha R15. I have had Pirelli Sport Demon system tyres 90/90/17 49P TL front and 130/70/17 62H TL rear. Very good tyres but be warned that they are no good after 10k km. Also it seems you can now get PSD in 120 section as well. Or you can get the setup for the R15 which is also very good.

Quote:
3) how to treat the rusted exhaust?
Change it to a new one.

Quote:
Idea is to tweak the engine to make it a funner ride and use it for short road trips (150-300kms).
I have the RTR 160 eFI and have owned the 180 as well. It is quite good in stock form. If you are looking to build a sleeper that can do ego crushing runs, Ashwin Prakash is your go to man. For all other intents and purposes, stock will do nicely.
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Old 17th January 2020, 04:22   #13
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Default Re: Advice needed on tuning my old Apache RTR 180

You could consider any of the 120/80- R17 tyres from Micheline, MRF, CEAT, Pirelli or TVS Srichakra. I have used all of these except Pirelli on My 2010 Apache RTR 180.

TVS Sri Chakra- Was the OEM supplied set on 110/80 cross-sections. This tyre was a disaster under most riding conditions except tyre life. Would fishtail at the drop of a hat and rains would make it go out character.

Micheline Pilot- This tyre lasted the longest and gave me one of the best performance but lacked grip under the wet condition as it got over 18000KM.

MRF Masseter- This is the current set and I have to agree the best so far. Performance is above expectation(MRF was not a global brand like others). Tyre life was impressive in addition to being almost puncture-proof
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Old 21st January 2020, 11:27   #14
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Default Re: Advice needed on tuning my old Apache RTR 180

Hey Guys, quick update - after considering all your expert advice, decided on the following,

1) Identified a capable mechanic through referral (Madmonkeys Motomotive, Porur Chennai)

2) Would be doing a full engine overhaul / repair - the madmonkeys guys drove the bike over the weekend, checked it and said poor maintainence including oil change schedules not being adhered to has possibly caused the downturn in power and a full engine overhaul is needed - cost would be approx 10k. This would include changing the clutch plate mechanism which is now in a pathetic shape.

3) They did not recommend a silencer change, but said will derust it (is this a word?), coat it with heat resistant paint and it should be good for a lot more usage - cost approx 3k

4) Basic stage 1 rebore, upjetting, said this would give me a 15% bump in power (approx as they clearly said without checking it with a Dyno, they never give specific figures) in total. Cost 3k

They will include a general service, K&N air filters (my suggestion), Synth oil change.

So for a total of approx 16k-20k, I should get a solidly built machine with a decent enough performance boost.

They also said further boosts would require extensive rebuilds and did not recommend it.

I personally am happy with a roughly 20-21 BHP power on this old machine.
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