[narayan]

Thought I’ll post one more related query on this thread. There is lot of discussion around lubricating motorcycle chains very often. Back in the day when most of us had 100-150cc motorcycles in the college days (90s), I don’t recall much attention to this topic. In fact I’ve never done it myself in my bikes or noticed my mechanic doing. Has anything changed since then ? I do observe that the old 100cc bikes usually had a closed chamber covering the chain. What is the right interval for cleaning and lubricating the chain and any related procedures to be mindful of ? Thanks

[ashwinprakas]

Originally Posted by sagarpadaki

True. However there are many people who use diesel/petrol engine oils in bike and are happy with it.

Amen!

This is an international practice irrespective of motorcycle configuration, the belief being HDEO Diesel oils offer better sheer resistance which helps with high intensity use and on engines that have more metal to metal contract like with the use of gear operated valves.

I use them cause they're cheap and with about 15~20 oil changes a year the difference is quite noticeable especially when considering bulk purchases and discounts.

This for example costs me Rs.190/Liter

Originally Posted by Gansan

The car oils will have certain components which will not be included in the bike oils. If one uses car oils in bikes, pretty soon the clutch will start slipping.

I've heard of this from the time I'd started riding but being someone who regularly uses HDEO's on motorcycles I have not experienced the same and I am not the only one, in my friends circles there are enthusiasts who have about 200k km's on the same single cylinder motorcycle running on factory internals without a rebuild.

Below is an older pic of a friends R15v2 when the motorcycle had clocked over 170k km's, about 20k km's is missing as this is his second speedometer(warranty replacement).



1500~2000 km's/liter drain intervals and still on stock internals in spite of running on HDEO's.

They follow the same practice on their multi cylinder motorcycles as well without a care in the world. You can find their ownership reviews on the xBhp forum if you Google a bit.

Originally Posted by narayan

Has anything changed since then ?

Yes. Most manufacturers have shifted to Sealed chains over conventional mechanical(?) chains.

Meaning the crucial part of the chain i.e the link pin is pre-lubed from factory and sealed using seals of different designs i.e O,X,Z etc to prevent the pin from running dry.

Here's a snap of the O ring's on the chain from my P220, excuse the grit as I do not believe in cleaning chains and make do with lubing with Gear Oil alone.



Chain was Split using a chain breaker to alter length as I was experimenting with different size sprockets at the time.

I do observe that the old 100cc bikes usually had a closed chamber covering the chain.

In the case of older mechanical(?) chains they came with a chain cover as their link pins weren't sealed and more sensitive to lubrication. Having said that with or without chain covers the chain on my CT100B hasn't clocked over 25k km's per set.

What is the right interval for cleaning and lubricating the chain and any related procedures to be mindful of ? Thanks

Lube it when you see the rollers start to shine.

The purpose of lubing sealed chains(X,O,Z etc.) is to prevent the seals from wearing down and the chain from rusting, which can cause links to seize and render the chain risky to use.

So you see, recommending a km's interval or a time interval cannot really do you good cause you could either be the kind that clocks 500 km's a month or the kind that clocks 500 km's a day. So a best practice would be to keep an eye on it every time you hop on the motorcycle, similar to keeping an eye on the oil inspection window before riding.

Ride Safe,
A.P.

DISCLAIMER: Stick to the owners manual if you are uncertain, Experiment after proper research rather than listening to a guy on the internet.

[srini1785]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Which suggest that viscosity is a direct and all inclusive measurement of the overall state of the oil. Which it simply is not. It is an indicator.

Is it not?. I was under the distinct impression that viscosity is the most important, if not the only indicator of healthiness of engine oil. All additives , are added to maintain two things

1. Thermal transfer characteristics
2. Friction characteristics

I don't know any other function of the engine oil. For a 20W50 grade engine oil, there are multiple brands available in the market all claiming to maintain excellent flow characteristics even at high temperatures ( courtesy engine oil ads) so for the wanna be Motorcycle scientist , how to find the best suitable engine oil?.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by srini1785

Is it not?. I was under the distinct impression that viscosity is the most important, if not the only indicator of healthiness of engine oil.

Viscosity is an important parameter, but it is not the only one. It is the one that is easiest measurable with even simple DIY tools.

Originally Posted by srini1785

All additives , are added to maintain two things

1. Thermal transfer characteristics
2. Friction characteristics

I don't know any other function of the engine oil. For a 20W50 grade engine oil, there are multiple brands available in the market all claiming to maintain excellent flow characteristics even at high temperatures ( courtesy engine oil ads) so for the wanna be Motorcycle scientist , how to find the best suitable engine oil?.

The additives are there for the engine oil to maintain those characteristics over a long time. Additives, to some point also determine the viscosity characteristics of the oil as well. The basic purpose of the various additives is to enhance existing base oil properties with antioxidants, corrosion inhibitors, anti-foam agents and demulsifying agents. In addition antiwear agents, extreme-pressure additives, and viscosity index improvers etc. The list goes on for a modern oil.

Viscosity is not a good indicator of the state of those additives perse. Also, actual wear particles tend to have a small effect on the viscosity, whereas it has a big effect on your engine.

In my opinion there is absolutely no way to tell what the best suitable engine oil is for your car/bike. Despite the fact that every car forum in the world has many many threads dedicated to oil. The only way to actually have an informed opinion on lub oil is by extensive very precise measurements on both the oil and the engine over a prolonged, controlled period of time.

What you will see on the oil threads is endless hugely subjective opinions, quoting sounds, noises, vibrations, revving of engine, smoke etc etc. All highly subjective, very debatable.

I have said it many times: You just look up the recommended oil specification in the car / bike owners manual; Next you buy the cheapest one and stick to the recommended maintenance intervals and you (or rather your engine) will be fine!

As I mentioned before, make sure always to change the oil filter as well.

Many years ago I was involved in an extensive field trial on the effect of different brands of lub oil (same specification) on marine diesel. I wrote the details somewhere on this forum, but I can’t for the life of me remember where). For many months we ran these engines, monitor and measuring all parameters. After so many hours we took them apart, measured the bearings, the cylinders, piston (rings etc). Normalised the measurement between the engines using different brands of lub. And found no measurable difference in wear between the very expensive A brands and the very cheap B brands.

So without taking engines apart and actually measuring the effects of wear, or lack there of, any debate on what constitutes a suitable oil is completely useless as far as I am concerned. There is simply no way of telling.

As long as you use oil with a specification compliant to the manufacturer recommendation your engine will be fine. Engine wear due to people letting their cold engine idle for minutes before driving away is much, much worse. Lots of short city drives are harder on an engine, than lots of motorway driving. But even so, rarely to the point that they start showing up in undue wear till at least 150-200K.

Even a little wear of the engine, resulting is some oil consumption is no problem at all. Just add a bit of oil now and then. Rule of thumb: on most car engines; adding up to 0,5l per 1000 km is no problem. This has been debated somewhere else on the forum as well. And several members confirmed the above as the formal recommendation found in their car owner manuals.

Many people sell their car at 100-120K. With normal routine maintenance engine wear by and large would be very minimal and most engines these days will easily do double that mileage without any major overhaul. Just running on whatever the manufacturer recommended. Why put more expensive, or supposedly better oil in it? (Well, I actually love guys that do it, because I typically buy cars with high mileage, so I am the one that gets the benefits, not the guy who drove the first 100K )

Testing be it for viscosity or otherwise on car / bike engines has little value in my opinion. As I explained, viscosity alone is not an indicator of the health of your oil. If you keep to the recommended oil change frequencies the likelihood of any abnormal engine wear is virtually nil. (Under normal running circumstances of course).

A lub oil is hugely important for an engine. But use the recommended one, change it at the recommended interval, together with the oil filter, and it becomes just about the most mundane aspect of your car / bike not worth bothering about!

Jeroen

[Nalin1]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Viscosity is an important parameter, but it is not the only one. It is the one that is easiest measurable with even simple DIY tools.

Viscosity is not a good indicator of the state of those additives perse. Also, actual wear particles tend to have a small effect on the viscosity, whereas it has a big effect on your engine.

Hi Jeroen,

Does the oil lose any of its viscosity (or any other effectiveness) beyond the recommended oil change interval even if the vehicle has not done enough kilometers?

That is, for one year/10,000 kms change interval, if I have only done around 6,000 to 7,000 kms at the end of the 12 month period, does delaying oil change by two or three months have any bad effect? Let's say the car runs another 2,000 kms in those two or three months.

My query is for all three types- Mineral, Synthetic or Semi-synthetic.

[rakesh_r]

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

Amen!

This is an international practice irrespective of motorcycle configuration, the belief being HDEO Diesel oils offer better sheer resistance which helps with high intensity use and on engines that have more metal to metal contract like with the use of gear operated valves.

Very much true, I had been using the Castrol CRB oil 20W50 on my P150 which happily ran for more than 80k on the odo before selling it off. But what if the manufacturer recommends to use only semi synthetic? Currently I have a Himalayan and owner's manual specifically states to use only Semi Synthetic oil.

[Lalvaz]

Originally Posted by Justin

Also, most commuter 2 wheelers use mineral oil or semi-synthetic engine oil whereas all 4 wheelers use fully synthetic oil.

Not true, my car uses semi synthetic oil, which is as per the manufacturer's recommendation. Some of my previous cars have used mineral oils as well.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Engine wear due to people letting their cold engine idle for minutes before driving away is much, much worse. Lots of short city drives are harder on an engine, than lots of motorway driving. But even so, rarely to the point that they start showing up in undue wear till at least 150-200K.

Jeroen

I thought idling a cold engine was recommended, especially for say a Diesel to allow the engine to reach optimum operating temperatures faster. From your quote, it appears that was a wrong practice. What do you suggest instead? Should one drive off rightaway even in a cold start? Also, what sort of damage are we talking about in case I idle my engine for a few minutes before taking off? Thanks!

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by Nalin1

Does the oil lose any of its viscosity (or any other effectiveness) beyond the recommended oil change interval even if the vehicle has not done enough kilometers?

That is, for one year/10,000 kms change interval, if I have only done around 6,000 to 7,000 kms at the end of the 12 month period, does delaying oil change by two or three months have any bad effect? Let's say the car runs another 2,000 kms in those two or three months.

My query is for all three types- Mineral, Synthetic or Semi-synthetic.

All oil tends to degrade a bit given enough time. Apparently it is mainly certain additives that cause it. But normal driving does it more. So mileage over time is more relevant in general, irrespective of type of engine oil.

So I would just run those additional couple of thousand kms before the oil change. In theory synthetic oil is less susceptible to degrade over time than semi or mineral. I doubt it makes a material difference in practice where we are talking a few months extra over a year. Although, to my earlier point, without measuring you won’t know, but it is just gut feeling.

On my three classic cars I tend to go by mileage over time as well. My W123 only does a few thousand kms a year, so it gets an oil change only every other year if that. My Jaguar needs an oil change every 10.000 km/12 months. But i only do 5-7000 km per year, so again I keep the mileage rather than the time.

Again, no measurements but it works for me. This is the other thing; engine wear is continuous and a very, very slow process. (Providing an engine is well maintained).

Say with normal wear your engine would last 250.000 km before needing a major overhaul. Those 2-3 month of driving without an oil change, or say you push it out to 12.000 km instead of 10.000km. How much do you think it will bring the major overhaul forward? A week a month, at 245.000km?

As I tried to highlight in my previous post, we often worry (and spend considerable amounts of money buying hugely expensive oil) worrying about something that is almost a non issue, really.

If you start your engine every week during those additional months to charge the battery, that will cause more wear (due to the engine being cold) than the perhaps slightly less than perfect oil. But neither is likely to have a noticeable effect on your engine for first couple of 100.000km (talking about cars, not bikes)

Jeroen

[Vikram Arya]

Originally Posted by Nalin1

Hi Jeroen,

Does the oil lose any of its viscosity (or any other effectiveness) beyond the recommended oil change interval even if the vehicle has not done enough kilometers?

That is, for one year/10,000 kms change interval, if I have only done around 6,000 to 7,000 kms at the end of the 12 month period, does delaying oil change by two or three months have any bad effect? Let's say the car runs another 2,000 kms in those two or three months.

My query is for all three types- Mineral, Synthetic or Semi-synthetic.

Lubricants just like other chemicals are subject to oxidation even if the car has done 2,000 kms in one year and therefore if the manufacturer recommends changing oil at xxxx kms/1 year (whichever is earlier) there's a reason they're saying that. The various additives that Jeroen has talked about in his detailed post also break down continuously thereby losing their effectiveness over time.

So if you’re asking if the engine will have a catastrophic failure if you go beyond the manufacturer's recommended mileage/time period by a couple of months/couple of thousand kilometres for the oil change then the answer is no however the damage done is incrementally small and cannot be measured realistically. If this happens on a one time basis then don’t lose any sleep over it however don’t make it a habit.

And yes this is true for all kind of lubricants whether conventional, semi synthetics or full synthetics.

Your car costs hundreds of thousands of rupees and an oil change is a minuscule percentage of that so pay a bit more attention to these time tested maintenance practices and your car will thank you for that.

Hope this helps.

[srini1785]

Can we put some numbers now to validate the basic premise?. i.e.

" Why is oil changed at such low intervals in 2-wheelers (~3000 km) compared to cars (~10000 km)?"

Lets say you take two engines of same cc capacity only one on a car and other on a bike, would the above argument still hold true?. Say a Alto K10 - 998cc, 3 cyl and Kawasaki ZX-10R -1000cc, 4 cyl (?).

Is the oil change interval the same ?.

[ashwinprakas]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

But even so, rarely to the point that they start showing up in undue wear till at least 150-200K.

Unfortunately not the case with motorcycle engines from my observation.

The Gerotor Pump is the first part to give up, I've seen them going bad on motorcycles with odo figures as low as 30k.

Though I've not conducted any flow rate tests to confirm the same, it is evident on close observation, you get valve train noises during cold starts that go away after a few seconds of idling and this can be resolved by changing the pump.

I do not know the exact reason why but my assumption is that extending drain intervals affect the clearance and reduces the efficiency of the pump, which goes unnoticed till the motor seizes.

I believe its extended drain intervals as I've to date not seen this happen on an engine with clean internals.

I've talked to enthusiast more competent than myself but they say that it is not possible for these pumps to work at lesser efficiency and they either work or do not. But that is not the case from experience, my understanding is that as the clearance increases, the efficiency goes down until the pump cannot maintain pressure at all.

Would help if you could share your insights.

Originally Posted by rakesh_r

But what if the manufacturer recommends to use only semi synthetic? Currently I have a Himalayan and owner's manual specifically states to use only Semi Synthetic oil.

Since we're already not following manufacturer recommendation running on HDEO's I'd doubt the synthetic requirement would be a concern. Also to note Synthetic recommendation only exists in most cases as oils with a wide operating range i.e 0W60, 15W50 etc. only come in the Synethic lineup.

The 15W was critical for the UCE Pushrod's as they ran off of hydraulic tappets, though not sure why the same is emphasized on the Himalayan. Could be a move towards lesser emissions as Honda did almost 2 decades ago when they shifted from 20W40 to 10W30 on their motorcycles globally. Not sure though.

And if uncertain its best to stick with manufacturer recommendation.

[audioholic]

Originally Posted by srini1785

Lets say you take two engines of same cc capacity only one on a car and other on a bike, would the above argument still hold true?. Say a Alto K10 - 998cc, 3 cyl and Kawasaki ZX-10R -1000cc, 4 cyl (?).

Is the oil change interval the same ?.

Yes, if you go by manufacturer recommendations. Even though the ZX10R engine would be running at higher speeds and undergo more stress in putting out three times the power of the K10 engine. But for Indian conditions, I am not sure if any 10R owner has used the bike for 10k kms before changing the engine oil, though many K10 owners including myself have used the oil for close to 10k kms before change.

[Kosfactor]

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

my understanding is that as the clearance increases, the efficiency goes down until the pump cannot maintain pressure at all.

You are right, the pump`s job is to create a flow of oil in this case. The resistance to flow creates pressure , if the engine is shot then the clearance increases and pressure drops.

Originally Posted by rakesh_r

But what if the manufacturer recommends to use only semi synthetic? Currently I have a Himalayan and owner's manual specifically states to use only Semi Synthetic oil.

Is there Semi-Synthetic written verbatim on the user manual alongside an API spec?

[mvadg]

Originally Posted by Rocketscience

Well bike.

Originally Posted by abhi9044

But how can they harm your Engine? Most of the commuter motorcycles/scooters have a oil strainer that looks like this:
Attachment 2036476
Whereas a car's oil filter element looks like this:-
Attachment 2036477

Originally Posted by Gansan

.

Originally Posted by Nalin1

.

Originally Posted by Vikram Arya

.

Thanks guys! Learnt so much from your posts! I went ahead and did some more research and found these very interesting videos, but let me state what all of you missed

1. Engine oils have to be designed for meeting emissions - this may mean the latest oils are not necessarily better at lubricating / protecting your engine than the old specc'd oils. (Needless to say, I should be designing my own "Atmanirhbhar oil" ) Watch this video for the details:
   

   https://youtu.be/qbisFIfYN40

2. Short trips mean more wear, water condensing into the oil AND oil dilution caused by fuel contamination:

   https://youtu.be/nMX94zarLs4

For the basics of multigrade oils and synthetics, take a look at this video:

https://youtu.be/tYkg0oDUXs8

[srini1785]

Originally Posted by audioholic

Yes, if you go by manufacturer recommendations. Even though the ZX10R engine would be running at higher speeds and undergo more stress in putting out three times the power of the K10 engine. But for Indian conditions, I am not sure if any 10R owner has used the bike for 10k kms before changing the engine oil, though many K10 owners including myself have used the oil for close to 10k kms before change.

So whats the point of this thread then?. if same capacity engines , regardless of whether used on a bike or car have the same change intervals then can we dismiss the basic premise as factually false?.

Its rather interesting to note that Alto has a lesser Oil sump capacity than a ZX10R. Its 2.9 L against 3.2 L of ZX10R. Further, recommended oil also matches in higher temperature range Viz Alto : 15W40 and ZX10R : 10W40.

Let me give you my theory : Only the 100 - 200cc mass market motorcycle segment have such recommendation of short oil change intervals as its a money spinner for the Engine oil companies.