[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by Emvi

May I request you to elaborate points 1 and 4 if possible?

These are just possibilities from the top of my head. Since my only connection to automobiles is by passion not profession, I wouldn't be able to explain the first point, maybe someone else can.

Regarding higher margins, more premium the product is, higher the profit margins for the manufacturers. In cars, a Creta will have fatter margins (prod. cost vs sales cost) as compared to an Alto. A Mercedes E class will give even fatter margins than either with the profit margins increasing as you go up the price range. Since, in bikes, you are already at a relatively premium segment at 4 lakh INR, the manufacturer will take higher profit margins than a 4 lakh car given the low volumes and the premium factor of the product. So, basically comparing cars and bikes is like comparing apples and oranges, they are two different markets.

Remembers, a product is more than the sum of its parts and in a free market, the market decides the price as much as the components.

[museycal]

Originally Posted by Emvi

just the amount of hardware a car has compared to a bike, is what gets me thinking!

More than the amount of hardware, the costs are also related to the quality of the components. A Rs. 2.5 - Rs. 4 Lakhs car which mostly have low cost sheet metal, low cost plastics, tyres, components etc. A similar priced 2 wheeler will have much higher quality of components, electronics, feature set etc.

See, we have a cheap and cheerful range of 125cc bikes at approx. Rs. 70K price points, like this:



And then we have a 125cc KTM RC 125 with a similar capacity 125cc engine at approx. Rs. 1.65L:



As you will see - different segments, different target markets, different product characteristics, different aspirations and different purchasing power. 'Big Bikes', as you refer to them, are designed and built with ultimate focus to address well defined needs - Adventurer Tourers, Scramblers, Cruisers, Sports, Supersports etc. And people pay for their excellence at their purpose. Simple.

Just like there's a 1000cc car available to buy at Rs. 5 Lakhs up to Rs. 15 Lakhs for i20 Turbo, Polo TSI, Verna etc., same is the case with bikes.

Of course then there are points about fatter margins, low volumes, taxation etc.

[aargee]

Originally Posted by Emvi

I have always wondered why are the "BIG" bikes priced as much as the cars or on most occasions pricier than the cars

It's a damn easy answer

Originally Posted by Emvi

1. Bikes are technologically advanced.
Definitely they are, so are the modern day cars

Nope; Yamaha R1 uses Titanium valves; cars? Seltos? Creta? or even Kodiaq?

Originally Posted by Emvi

2. Bikes are more powerful and faster.
Yes they are, the cars are not far behind

Nope; check out their P2WR, it will be mind blowing; simple 2L CBR 250R has 148 bhp per tonne compared to my SCross 92 Bhp per tonne. New Speed triple has 924 bhp per tonne!!

Same goes with a car as well, not necessarily motorcycle; base variant Porsche makes 240 Bhp per tonne (Creta 94 Bhp per tonne & SCross 92 Bhp per tonne, while most Tatas are making ~65 & Mahinda around 72)

Ok, so is the cost around Bhp per tonne? It's hard to believe, but to get that massive power, the metal has to be strengthen like good old Amby, but then the weight goes up. Here kicks in the metallurgy in form of Chemical engineers whether to use Titanium or Aircraft grade AL (or spacecraft grade metals)

Frame is often ignored, but there's a whole lot of brains & engineering goes into it be it metallurgy or design or engineering; best part being, various teams from suspension, wheels, electricals have to come together to a consensus on it. Engine...being the most rivalry team for the frame. What I mean here is, there's a team that put together these things with a consensus, then there're best teams & there're the best brains in the world. Best brains are paid more to deliver the best. Basically the cost.

I'm sure you know the cost of F1 cars, if not the same, Moto GP & Le-Mans are given the same importance. It's the testing ground for not just liter class; just to give an example, all Kawasaki 650s (Vulcan to Ninja to Versys) using parallel twin were award winners in Le-Mans circuit once. Guess where the splendours or my Rx100's engine were tested

I'm sure now you're able to draw a rational figure on the cost of the superbikes

As departing, I leave some hazy smoke...why does a 3 cylinder Alto costs just a lakh more than a single cylinder CBR 250R or a Gixxer 250?

[Emvi]

Originally Posted by aargee

I'm sure you know the cost of F1 cars, if not the same, Moto GP & Le-Mans are given the same importance. It's the testing ground for not just liter class; just to give an example, all Kawasaki 650s (Vulcan to Ninja to Versys) using parallel twin were award winners in Le-Mans circuit once. Guess where the splendours or my Rx100's engine were tested

I'm sure now you're able to draw a rational figure on the cost of the superbikes

As departing, I leave some hazy smoke...why does a 3 cylinder Alto costs just a lakh more than a single cylinder CBR 250R or a Gixxer 250?

Let us not go to the extreme ends of the automotive spectrum. Racing machines are a different breed altogether, so are the commuter segment vehicles. Without taking names, we all know there a few very well built top quality cars at around the one million rupee price range. I am considering this price bracket just for all the rational purpose. This is where my thoughts are focused on and I have mostly avoided using the term "superbikes" for this reason.

And as you have quoted, you have certainly left some hazy smoke

[Rachit.K.Dogra]

Originally Posted by Emvi

Is it because of the taxation, the bikes are priced higher? Are they priced higher just for the premiumness? I may sound naive, still for the purpose of hypothesis, if we compute the cost of each and every component of a BIG bike and a similarly priced car separately, my assumption is that the cost of the bike will be significantly lower than that of the car. I have not found a convincing logic behind the pricing from anyone till date. Please share your knowledge fellow BHPians.

Here are few pointers that come to my mind:
1) Component Quality and Cost: Most high end big bikes use many components made out of higher grade/expensive materials. Eg: Titanium Conrods, Pistons etc. The reason is a super bike engine has a much higher compression ratio. In addition, a super bike engine generally revs to twice the RPM of that of normal car and it still needs to be reliable, sustain heat etc

A normal 1000 Naturally Aspirated Car engine is below 100 BHPs where as most 1000 super bikes these days are close to 200 or above.

These components also add up because most top end bikes are trying to shave every gram of weight possible for performance. However on a regular car, a company wouldn't spend more on components to make it lighter.

2) R&D Costs: Most high end bikes have high R&D costs which gets split into lesser volume of bikes sold. So each piece contributes more to the R&D recovery.

3) Positioning: Even if a manufacturer can, they wouldn't sell their top tier bikes cheap. That is just brand and product positioning.

4) Race teams and Riders endorsements: Manufacturers in many cases have to spend money to have top riders endorse their bikes or race teams market them etc.

5) They are made with a higher focus on performance than cost. Everyday cars are made with a higher focus on cost than performance.

Rachit

[Red Liner]

Every single one of them are full imports. If they were completely made here or no import duties assigned (FTA Free trade agreements etc), then all their prices would be far less than a similarly specced car.

Check USD pricing of all the bikes imported and launched here, our Indian prices are atleast a few hundred thousands more.

[IshaanIan]

First of all, big bikes are CBUs, secondly, while their engines might be of similar displacement to your average family car, they are running at a much higher compression, redline at a much higher rpm, achieve much higher power/torque per liter figures and propel the big but still relatively light machine to much higher speeds; what all this means is that the bike is undergoing a lot more stresses on a body that is much smaller than a car. It is far more important to have the right stiffness and flex in a bike's chassis, the right damping for its suspension, the right cooling for its motor and a little bit of reliability considering it is sold to the masses.

[aargee]

Originally Posted by Emvi

Let us not go to the extreme ends of the automotive spectrum...you have certainly left some hazy smoke

Not really; the math should still be equivalent; compare a 10L car : Lamborghni versus R15 : Ducati Panigale

Rs 1M:Rs 30M vs Rs 0.15M:Rs 2.5M

All manufacturers make performance oriented street legal motorcycles through racing. Once home grown example is Apache RTR (which was originated from Fierro); internationally speaking, major 4s motorcycles from Japs to the McLaren, Williams, Ferrari teams. So we simply cannot discard racing as just sport, the science contributes significantly into it which adds up the cost of street legal performance oriented motorcycles.

[car love]

Excellent thread. As pointed out i always compare the prices of the RE 650 and Alto. How can a car's price be roughly that of a bike? The car having 3 times the metal and many additional components as compared to the bike. There is something fundamentally wrong in our market place/system. Even back in the 70s, in America a 750cc bike was affordable "fun for the masses" kind of vehicle.
50 years on, fun for the masses in India is still 150cc or thereabouts. Goes to show how far ahead in living standards the West is in comparison with us, a gap which may never be closed.

[vinodvayyat]

This thread reminds me of my colleagues questioning me when I bought an imported cyclo-cross bicycle. They said that with lower cost I could've got an Royal Enfield Classic 350 for daily office commute. My reply to them was - "But you can't get a Surly Cross-check for the same cost!".

My point here is this - the cost of a product as many others stated here already is a combination of:

• R&D costs in terms of number of person hours, technology cost (do you have to pay for the license you bought or you have your own patents?) etc
• How the market sees the product? Can competitors manufacture similar product for less price? After all it is a free market - who is going to stop you doing that?
• Scale of production (Altos are sold 10000s a month or more whereas a premium bike may not be able to match these numbers)
• "Big" doesn't mean "more". So a "Car" isn't more than a "Motorbike".

I used to advice my friends who are beginners in cycling: A Montra Trance Pro (Manufactured by TI cycles in India) is no match for a Cannondale Quick 5. Both these are same segment bicycles. But technology matters and a Quick 5 rides lot smoother and faster compared to a Trance Pro. Hence Cannondale is considered as much more premium than its competitors. How many were able to steal the show from Cannondale? - not many as we speak.
Many will ask what is there in a bicycle that much to make it cost more than lakh? My answer - try making one your own. Parallels now can be drawn to Motorbike vs Car question.

[Emvi]

There have been some valuable inputs from the fellow BHPians. Inputs are appreciated.But I also see a lot has been mentioned about performance in terms of power,speed and the metallurgy of the powertrains of the BIG bikes as the primary reason behind the pricing.

While the powertrain is definitely the most important part of a vehicle, there are a lot of other important components a vehicle is made up of. Few have suggested that the engines of the BIG bikes have higher compression ratio and higher RPM. Don't the modern day diesels have high compression ratio if not high RPM? Do the BIG cruiser bike engines have high RPM? The cruiser bikes are generally torquier but the power output in terms of BHP is always relatively low and are not high revving. Diesel engines of the modern cars are always robustly constructed owing to their compression ignition characteristic. At the same time they are not heavy as they were earlier, so without doubt the metallurgy of the modern day diesels is of the highest order. Not just the diesels, even the modern day petrols are strongly built with top quality materials and it's not surprising these engines last for lakhs of kilometres without any major issues. Agreed, few critical components of the bike's engine might be imported and of aircraft grade material, but the majority of components like body panels, tyres, lights, instrumentation cluster would still be of the "usual" quality, no? Time and money spent on R&D may not be always proportional to the price of the vehicle. Tata Nano is one such example.

If speed is the criteria that differentiates these bikes from cars, we all know even the cars in 3.5-5 lakhs rupee bracket are well capable of attaining speeds in the region of 145-155 kmph. I know, it is never safe or sane driving at that speeds, I'm just quoting for the purpose of comparison. I am not discounting the fact that the bikes definitely have superior acceleration. As rightly mentioned by a fellow BHPian it is not about spec sheet battle.

Comparing bikes to cars is like comparing oranges to apples, no doubt. So is comparing vehicles from different segments, so is comparing electronic gadgets from different price segments and so are a lot of things around us(primarily comparing individuals' preferences/choices). All I am trying to find for myself and probably a lot of others like me is what makes these biker pricier than cars! Technology is the most easy and obvious answer, but technology is one of the most misinterpreted words these days in my opinion. I am not at all saying if these BIG bikes are worth the price or not. I myself having experienced these BIG machines(sub litre class) a few times, I know how it feels to ride them. Ultimately it is an invidual's choice to own anything which he/she aspires for and no one can be forced to justify his/her choice.

Let us forget supercars and superbikes for a moment. We have bikes like RE Interceptor, Bajaj Dominar 400 and KTMs which offer great performance, acceptable quality, modern technology, displacement and most importantly priced almost equal to or marginally lesser than the cheapest car options available. Interestingly the bikes one or two segments above the ones that I have mentioned seem to be priced disproportionately(I am not sure if it is the right word). It doesn't seem so in case of the cars.

Reiterating my point, are the BIG bikes really expensive to manufacture or what is the genuine reason behind the pricing?

[rdst_1]

It's very simple. Apart from the cost factors and the duty structure of countries, companies also rely heavily on market studies and they price their products accordingly.
I used to run a small time business of importing and selling phones. One of the big sharks of the business gave me an important lesson. Price your product according to what the market is willing to pay and not what you think is a good enough profit. That is the same philosophy these companies follow as well. There is a reason why Toyota keep increasing the prices of Innova and Fortuner. Because they know it will still sell despite the price rise.

[landcruiser123]

Simple: The big bikes aren't mass-market items. They are toys for the rich folk.

The main reason for the high prices: (In the order of decreasing contribution)
1. Manufacturers maximize profit per unit as this isn't a high-volume market
2. High taxes on imported parts- simple things like air filters will be imported and cost much more compared to the equivalent car part
3. High technology- most parts are expensive to manufacture due to smaller tolerances to ensure reliable performance. Example: Most bike engines revv to 12-14,000 RPM whereas cars only rev to 6-6,500 RPM
4. Customers aren't very price sensitive - A 1lakh price difference might not make a buyer interested in a Yamaha R1 go to the Suzuki showroom whereas the same 1 lakh might make a customer switch from a i20 to an Altroz.

[PrasannaDhana]

Not even going to go to superbikes.

Just compare a 3 lakh rupees Kwid 800 and the identically priced KTM 390.
Kwid 68 bhp / tonne, 92 Nm / tonne
KTM 390 280 bhp / tonne, 260 Nm /tonne

This should explain the total day/night difference between both in terms of real world performance.

When you compare a 10 lakh rupee hatch back and a 10 lakh rupee super bike, this difference just goes up exponentially.

A 10 lakh car buyer pays for value, a 10 lakh superbike buyer pays for thrill. That's the difference!

And yes, in most cases a 10 lakh rupee superbike owner will already have a luxury car in his garage (if he doesn't, for sure, he can afford one).

[frewper]

Originally Posted by PrasannaDhana

And yes, in most cases a 10 lakh rupee superbike owner will already have a luxury car in his garage (if he doesn't, for sure, he can afford one).

Well we cant say everytime this happens. Even a lot of superbike owners here have bought their bikes for sheer thrill, even though they may not want to spend money on a luxury car ever.

I think most of us can buy a luxury car, but can we afford to buy one remains the question.

Like you said its the thrill that we pay for nothing more. Car and bike is a completely different mindset. Though I do agree a lot of superbike owner may be luxury car owners as well, but maybe its easier for them to make the decision when it comes to money.

One of my friend he owns a BMW GS 1200, but guess what his primary car is? Its the humble Wagon R. He least cares about his car, but is mad when it comes to his bike.

I think we all have a spot where the hobby takes over the mind, and logical reasoning goes down the drain. Another friend of mine has a hobby of fish keeping. Particularly Marine Aquariumns. And boy I can tell you thats expensive. Its cheaper to maintain a 5 year old german luxury car than be addicted to that.

Heart over mind, whats were the fun begins.