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Old 19th September 2021, 23:38   #616
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Default Re: Ola's made-in-India Electric scooter, now launched at Rs. 99,999

Frankly I am concerned about the quality issues and silly niggles which can bother us with a scooter which is being "rushed" out to meet stringent deadlines. I agree it is based on some existing base model from abroad, but if they have changed something related to its electricals or mechanicals, then it should be thoroughly tested. I hope the first buyers won't become the test mules for this company.

Also, I am seeing that even pizza delivery boys & amazon delivery boys nowadays have electric scooters. They are riding Hero Electric Nyx (Next?) Scooters which have good leg room to carry their bags. They look pretty well built, decent plastics and looks good / proportionate on the road. Any feedback on these hero scooters?

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Old 19th September 2021, 23:55   #617
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Default Re: Ola's made-in-India Electric scooter, now launched at Rs. 99,999

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Originally Posted by saumitra_joshi View Post
I have simply called out that a similar level of detailed engineering that has not been done by OLA itself. They have purchased Etergo and one would assume Etergo has done it. Bhavish Agarwal has himself stated that it requires quite a lot of engineering effort to make things work in Indian condition and they are doing that right now. Ather has done it for multiple years. This has nothing to do with my bias towards Ather. It is a simple engineering fact: Making things work in Indian conditions requires a lot of efforts. Ather has done it. Ola is expected to be *doing* parts of it, the other being done part being done by the company that it purchased. Remember, there is "know how" and "know why". Only time will tell if Ola is able to get both. I am not generalizing anything, I am simply calling out the fact that Ather has done it for years before they launched 450X. I am sorry if it was seen in any other way.


This was just *one* example to show the attention to detail. Ather was the *first* to provide Park assist, the *first* to provide navigation (integrated with Google Maps), *first* to provide features like "Follow me home lights". The point is here is a start up which is paying serious attention to detail. This requires bringing together a lot of different elements of engineering together: Design, ease of use, manufacturing technology, software ecosystem and so forth. And most importantly, it takes time and rigour to build such capabilities. Ola has purchased a company and is completely relying on this company to have done that; Ola as an organisation currently *does not* have those capabilities and is likely working on building those. Based on my own experience, these things takes years. I am happy for the Indian customers if they are able to demonstrate those capabilities right from the first sale. However, I will remain skeptical until then. Also, Ather technical forum makes their engineering thought process quite transparent. Would be happy to see Bajaj do such things but have they done it so far??? Do visit the Ather technical forum to see for yourself the level of details being discussed - nobody else is doing it and it has nothing to do with me being a fanboy or owner.

Fair enough that it is not exotic material but as a start up, they had the vision, patience and the engineering rigour to build it. The point is that here is a company that is willing to go beyond the usual limits to create a completely different product!
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Etergo was suppose to do almost 240 km of range, if its a copy paste setup like you are talking about for Ola, then why were they not able to achieve it in real world?
Ola has its own set of features like Cruise Control, Hill Hold, Using your phone as a key and most importantly they are delivering scooters nationwide from get go. Whereas people still can't buy Ather in Tier 2 cities forget about Tier 3.

Bajaj Chetak didn't have any starting problems under high tension wires, don't know where that is coming from. They didn't deliver as many scooters because they are launching it in phased manner. Maharashtra being the first state where they are introducing it, city wise.
Saying that they made profit during that time doesn't mean they can sustain in market just because of that profit. The production capacity during those days was not enough to meet the demand, in fact buying Creta or Seltos means having a waiting period of more than 6 months and in some cases up to an year. What kind of license raj are we living in today?
BSNL in those days took equally long time to install landlines at residences. I am sure you must be aware of the waiting times during that era, they also made lot of profits, where are they now?
So to say you can sustain for decades just because of first mover advantage is not true.

Aesthetics like a translucent panel doesn't equate improved performance. That too on a limited run model. If we go by that logic then all automakers who add fake vents design will be renowned artists.
All the features that you are talking about are not that unique, Apple or Samsung taking "inspiration" from each other to add features in their respective product is not considered industry first or engineering master piece.

In the end I am happy that both companies are doing great work for my country and giving options to the consumers. But I won't agree that one is an engineering house while other is a drop shipping company.
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Old 20th September 2021, 01:03   #618
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Default Re: Ola's made-in-India Electric scooter, now launched at Rs. 99,999

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Originally Posted by Electromotive View Post

The OLA scooter, on the other hand, is a product of good business acumen (and lots of venture capital). Instead of wasting time and effort in developing a scooter from the ground up, they just bought out a company that had already developed a good scooter. The Etergo team already put in the passion and hard work to develop a decent scooter designed to be manufactured quickly and cheaply -- notice the large molded body panels, which translate into fewer parts and faster assembly; also the fact that Etergo was designed to be an app scooter hence needed to be cheap to produce. All OLA needed to do was make sure the product can be mass produced efficiently at scale. And they have focused on just that. If OLA succeeds in getting their factory up and running as intended, they might just capture the scooter market due to sheer scale and speed. Traditional scooter manufacturers should be panicking, it might already be too late.
Agreed, the Ather has been designed using a lot more heart while the OLA is all head.

Etergo was designed keeping in mind 'ease of assembly', because from the outset they had taken into account sub contracting manufacturing to other vendors. Keeping it simple helps with easier QC management.

The design revolves around minimising number of parts, reducing resource intensive components, easier and faster assembly etc Therefore simplicity was key rather than having to stress out on panel alignment, multiple surface finishes, tight tolerance levels etc which would be required when going for a more sophisticated design.

That said the traditional manufacturers are not sitting idle, agreed OLA has a 12-18 month lead. They better not.

All Indian majors TVS, Hero, Bajaj have action plans in place all of which have already been announced. Yet they all have one massive disadvantage, existing IC engine manufacturing investments. It will be very tough to wean away from bread and butter moneymakers, but they should look into history where they must have already learnt their lesson.

Once upon a time India's two wheeler market was dominated by 2-stroke two wheelers, both scooters and motorcycles. In the mid 80s nobody in India made small capacity 4 stroke two wheelers, apart from one - Hero Honda.

The rest of the market still swore by 2 strokes, Bajaj-Kawasaki, TVS-Suzuki, Rajdoot-Yamaha and so did most of the Indian buyers. But Hero Honda swam against the tide and offered customers something the others couldn't match - efficiency. When the savings benefited peoples pockets they came in droves.

It took more than half a decade for others to react, by then it was too late. Hero continues to dominate the market, for more than 3 decades!

OLAs electric scooter offers exactly what Hero Honda offered in the mid 80s, efficiency. Albeit now in the form of Electricity vs expensive petrol. As more people realise the costs benefits the demand will increase. Crude prices are going higher and State/Central Govt. cannot let go off fuel levies, the Rs.100+ petrol is here to stay.

So far buying an electric scooter has been a compromise between higher quality-high priced option eg. Ather vs low quality-low priced options eg. plethora of chinese assembled scooters ie Hero, Okinawa etc.. OLA changes all this.

Like it or not, India's electric two wheeler revolution has now truly begun.
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Old 20th September 2021, 08:54   #619
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Default Re: Ola's made-in-India Electric scooter, now launched at Rs. 99,999

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Originally Posted by officer416 View Post
Etergo was suppose to do almost 240 km of range, if its a copy paste setup like you are talking about for Ola, then why were they not able to achieve it in real world?
Ola has its own set of features like Cruise Control, Hill Hold, Using your phone as a key and most importantly they are delivering scooters nationwide from get go. Whereas people still can't buy Ather in Tier 2 cities forget about Tier 3.
Ather is a start up, which is delivering vehicles on the road. Ola has done bookings. Can we wait for a while on this? The jury is still out. Ather has had a policy of NOT delivering vehicle until they get the Ather Grid up and running. Right or wrong is a different issue but that is the reason why Ather is still not available in Tier 2 cities. When Ola delivers across India, I will be very happy but isnt it too early to celebrate?
Quote:
Bajaj Chetak didn't have any starting problems under high tension wires, don't know where that is coming from. They didn't deliver as many scooters because they are launching it in phased manner. Maharashtra being the first state where they are introducing it, city wise.
This information came from somebody who sells Bajaj vehicles for a living and working for Bajaj. Apologies I should have stated this as this is not available on public resources; take it for what it's worth. What is clearly *in public* is, as an example, this article from April: https://swarajyamag.com/ideas/rajiv-...to-make-a-mark In fact, given the superbly established dealer network and supply chain, you would have expected Bajaj to go all out in selling this product across India, just like TVS seems to be doing with iQube.

From what I understand from some of the folks involved, Bajaj is back to ARAI testing to get those niggles out of the way. As I showed through the patent scan, Bajaj has *not* developed any fundamental technology. No ground breaking, in house tech dev. There is a reason why post DTSi for Pulsar, Bajaj has not produced anything substantial in terms of IP or the IC Engines still use tech from the Kawasaki days, especially for materials. Would be happy to learn otherwise.

Quote:
Saying that they made profit during that time doesn't mean they can sustain in market just because of that profit. The production capacity during those days was not enough to meet the demand, in fact buying Creta or Seltos means having a waiting period of more than 6 months and in some cases up to an year. What kind of license raj are we living in today?
BSNL in those days took equally long time to install landlines at residences. I am sure you must be aware of the waiting times during that era, they also made lot of profits, where are they now?
So to say you can sustain for decades just because of first mover advantage is not true.
The current wait is because of an industry shortage on electronic components and affects every one - heck even Maruti has had to reduce their production by close to 25% because of it. This shortage is different from the shortage in the license quota Raj which was a *deliberate* policy decision from some of the industrialist close to the establishment and the GOI to create artificial shortage leading to higher priced products. See this article on Chetak: https://www.timesnownews.com/auto/fe...popular/504048 It was not a case of early mover advantage, it was a clear case of monopoly. It is reflected in the fact that all the years, the product got hardly any upgrade worth the money and the original itself was from Vespa. Did Bajaj establish a proper R&D culture to build a future product? Bajaj entered the motorcycle segment with Kawasaki. Pulsar was a new and a different product, especially with DTSi. Unfortunately, nothing substantial has happened since then. I have nothing against Bajaj or Ola, so don't get me wrong. My point is that companies that do not have R&D DNA in them don't bother about the "know how" and "know why". I hope Ola is different and actually invests in the long term - it will be great for the Indian market.
Quote:
Aesthetics like a translucent panel doesn't equate improved performance. That too on a limited run model. If we go by that logic then all automakers who add fake vents design will be renowned artists.
All the features that you are talking about are not that unique, Apple or Samsung taking "inspiration" from each other to add features in their respective product is not considered industry first or engineering master piece.

In the end I am happy that both companies are doing great work for my country and giving options to the consumers. But I won't agree that one is an engineering house while other is a drop shipping company.
Ather *currently* offers the best performance of all bikes there and Ola is yet to be in production. Like I said earlier, it was just one example of a company paying enough attention to details. There basic Aluminium frame is unique and so is quite a lot of the tech (BMS et al) and the software ecosystem. If Ola betters it and lesser cost and builds the R&D system for the country and creates genuine competition, so much the better for India

Last edited by saumitra_joshi : 20th September 2021 at 09:21.
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Old 20th September 2021, 10:29   #620
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Default Re: Ola's made-in-India Electric scooter, now launched at Rs. 99,999

Quote:
Originally Posted by saumitra_joshi View Post

In 450X, Ather has:
  1. Done a ground up design of the platform, a beautiful all Aluminium frame, quite advanced in design
  2. Designed the entire Battery Management System - this not only includes the software but also the thermal design of the battery pack
  3. Understands the complete dynamics of the vehicle - ground up mechanical design!!!
  4. Built a complete software ecosystem around the bike for not only the present product but also future upgrades
  5. Slowly stepping up on the production ecosystem as well as support ecosystem including Ather Grid.
Why am I sharing this? I just want our forum members to know to what extent an engineering company needs to go to create a world class product. I am afraid but I but I do not see the same with Ola (which is essentially a software driven brokerage company)
Being in this industry since 2014 and of course, going through Ather & Ola in my past career history (Been to most of the major Electric Mobility startups in India) I can say Ather has come a long way to make their product.

They developed something from scratch with all the bells and whistles with great aesthetics and pleasing to the young buyers.

I have seen nearly 6 similar or better startups in India on a similar time frame who got unlucky in getting investments because of the ppt/presentation failure to investor pitch. Not because their idea was inferior or a poor 5-year plan but the 5-minute presentation didn't well good. So it would've been Ather in the shelves if one another acquired the investment a day before them with an extra slide in their PPT.

Coming to OLA, which also started as a startup, the competitor was small Uber, they also came a long way down. Instead of settling to one single perimeter, they looked to expand the mobility business. They have done a good amount of development and testing on the acquired product from etergo.

I can understand that some people do not vouch for Ola because they bought another startup and deployed a product of theirs, but why can't we think that etergo also came in a similar way as Ather did and Ola just invested in them and put the idea into the market?

Ather is no superior nor inferior to Ola. Both of the companies work hard on making their product successful, at the end it's not the number of patents that counts, it's how successful their product is among consumers.

I have worked on both Ather and Ola in their initial times and know their management very deep and both of them worked very hard to release a product. As a consumer, we should select a product based on the quality of the products, not by counting patents or the technology histogram of the dev team.

Last edited by starke : 20th September 2021 at 10:30.
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Old 20th September 2021, 11:25   #621
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Default Re: Ola's made-in-India Electric scooter, now launched at Rs. 99,999

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Originally Posted by starke View Post
Coming to OLA, which also started as a startup, the competitor was small Uber, they also came a long way down. Instead of settling to one single perimeter, they looked to expand the mobility business. They have done a good amount of development and testing on the acquired product from etergo.
I am pretty sure they are doing it as of now. I am not disputing that. My simple point was that it takes several years to build organisational capabilities and if Ola can do it quickly enough, it is fantastic news for the Indian customer. The build up of these capabilities is what we call "Know Why" - Etergo probably has it, and one hopes it gets transferred to Ola. Based on experience of Tata JLR deal, one can safely say that despite Tata "owning" JLR, the crown jewels of JLR IP (i.e. IC Engine Tech, Materials, Transmission et al) will remain with JLR/UK. Tata can only use them but the "know why" will never be transferred. I hope there is no such "exotic" tech in electric scooters that Etergo will not give to Ola. If there is and there are restrictions on transfer of such tech from Etergo to Ola, we have an issue.

Quote:
I can understand that some people do not vouch for Ola because they bought another startup and deployed a product of theirs, but why can't we think that etergo also came in a similar way as Ather did and Ola just invested in them and put the idea into the market?

Ather is no superior nor inferior to Ola. Both of the companies work hard on making their product successful, at the end it's not the number of patents that counts, it's how successful their product is among consumers.
And I am not pointing to any comparisons in terms of superior or inferior. I am just saying that here is company A which has done X years of research and owns Y amount of IP. They probably do know their product inside out. And there is company B that has acquired company C to get to the same or better space. And they are yet to be tested. If they work out the product as stated and planned, fantastic news for the consumers!!

Quote:
I have worked on both Ather and Ola in their initial times and know their management very deep and both of them worked very hard to release a product. As a consumer, we should select a product based on the quality of the products, not by counting patents or the technology histogram of the dev team.
Good to know that you worked for both these start ups - more power to you! I agree that patent count is not a way to select a product, that was not the point. The patent count was given to show the amount of tech mind share given by a start up (Ather) and contrasted it with a well established company (Bajaj). One would certainly not use that as a binary point for sale or purchase decision. It is one more factor to think about to understand the company mindset. Folks will anyway take their decisions based on their own viewpoint!

Last edited by saumitra_joshi : 20th September 2021 at 11:41.
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Old 20th September 2021, 12:04   #622
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Default Re: Ola's made-in-India Electric scooter, now launched at Rs. 99,999

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Originally Posted by shortbread View Post
Agreed,...Once upon a time India's two wheeler market was dominated by 2-stroke two wheelers, both scooters and motorcycles. In the mid 80s nobody in India made small capacity 4 stroke two wheelers, apart from one - Hero Honda.

...India's electric two wheeler revolution has now truly begun.
Pretty much.
Thanks to the balance of payment crisis of the early 90's which forced the Indian govt. to liberalize, capitalism could finally spread its wings in India. Even with the level of corruption and incompetence we have in the govt ranks, we are still making progress thanks to capitalism. Imagine the horror show if license raj had continued.

Incumbents like Bajaj, which fed at the teat of socialist protection in 80s, would have continued to hold back progress and fleece customers. No competition, no progress. The Bajaj Chetak electric is a mediocre product they quickly cooked up from imported Chinese parts and barely did any R&D and are now charging a very inflated price for it. Bajaj products have always had QC issues, the electric chetak won't be any different. The issue lies with company culture after all. Even Bajaj Finance/Allianz and Bajaj electric are terrible companies even if the promoters are different.

I am honestly grateful that now we have so many venture capital backed startups and foreign companies making my life easier and saving me money and forcing the incumbent domestic players to up their game and become consumer friendly or just DIE.

There was once a time when even BSNL linemen gave you attitude if you complained about service disruption. There was the time when you had only crappy HMTs as an option if you wanted a wrist watch. Or the time you needed a license for a radio or a bicycle. The list goes on.

I have completely stopped giving business to my local grocers simply because of their attitude. They think they are doing you a favor by letting you buy from them and generally do not offer any discounts. Now my money goes to bigbasket, jiomart, Amazon etc. and I get multiple discount offers to boot. Capitalism (with some regulations) for the win!
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Old 20th September 2021, 14:17   #623
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Default Re: Ola's made-in-India Electric scooter, now launched at Rs. 99,999

OLA S1 Pro got more reservations than OLA S1.

Quote:
An Ola Electric representative has now confirmed to HT Auto that the interest in the upper trim has been at least three times more than the more affordable model.
https://auto.hindustantimes.com/auto...109737580.html
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Old 20th September 2021, 14:44   #624
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Default Re: Ola's made-in-India Electric scooter, now launched at Rs. 99,999

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Originally Posted by SKC-auto View Post
OLA S1 Pro got more reservations than OLA S1.



https://auto.hindustantimes.com/auto...109737580.html
Now that's a big thing if true. Even if they sold 100k units, 75k out of them were S1 Pro! A really good number for the price it is being offered at.(Rs 1.3L) Waiting to see these scooters on road
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Old 20th September 2021, 15:00   #625
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Default Re: Ola's made-in-India Electric scooter, now launched at Rs. 99,999

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Originally Posted by udaikalra01 View Post
Now that's a big thing if true. Even if they sold 100k units, 75k out of them were S1 Pro! A really good number for the price it is being offered at.(Rs 1.3L) Waiting to see these scooters on road
In a way, it is not surprising as S1's projected performance numbers are similar to an Ather. If I was ok with S1 numbers, I would have booked and Ather without a thought. Notwithstanding the fact that Ather's is still developing its reach in India slowly.

I have booked as S1 pro too. I need to be able to cover 100kms in a day(twice a week)without even thinking about the range and have good performance.
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Old 20th September 2021, 15:18   #626
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Default Re: Ola's made-in-India Electric scooter, now launched at Rs. 99,999

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Originally Posted by Electromotive View Post
Pretty much.

Bajaj products have always had QC issues, the electric chetak won't be any different. The issue lies with company culture after all.
I had the worst experience of their product and attitude when I bought a KB100 bike from them in 1989. Already the product was the worst among the four Indo-Jap 100s, but Bajaj managed to take it quite a few pegs further down. Ever since that time I have been advocating against their products and lost count of the number of people in my circle whom I advised not to buy from them.

For all the hype, the Bajaj Chetak was a very average product. It stood out because the others were even worse. And the four stroke Chetak which they brought out was pathetic and fell flat.

In contrast TVS vehicles have good quality built in to them, though their performance may not be top notch. My bike mechanic says their spare parts always have the best quality among all brands and last long, though expensive. I wonder why they are not aggressive with their EV offering.
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Old 20th September 2021, 17:34   #627
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Default Re: Ola's made-in-India Electric scooter, now launched at Rs. 99,999

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Originally Posted by Gansan View Post
In contrast TVS vehicles have good quality ... I wonder why they are not aggressive with their EV offering.

The TVS iQube electric, at least on paper, is the worst of the EV offerings from traditional ICE scooter manufacturers. It uses a hub motor and has only 75Km of range, that too under eco mode. It is not a very desirable product and they know that which is why they are not being aggressive with it.

IMO, the ICE scooter manufacturers have made a massive goof up by not taking EV scooters seriously. If OLA scooters live up to their spec and performance, ICE scooter manufacturers will be done for.
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Old 20th September 2021, 23:04   #628
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Default Re: Ola's made-in-India Electric scooter, now launched at Rs. 99,999

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Originally Posted by saumitra_joshi View Post

And I am not pointing to any comparisons in terms of superior or inferior. I am just saying that here is company A which has done X years of research and owns Y amount of IP. They probably do know their product inside out. And there is company B that has acquired company C to get to the same or better space. And they are yet to be tested. If they work out the product as stated and planned, fantastic news for the consumers!!
Company A can be sub-divided into engineering development A.1 and A.2 which consists of the investors & management, here the A.1 refers C and A.2 is exactly B. It's all the same. Regarding the testing, its irrelevant here as Ola has done more testing than the Ather as company C had its own testing for years + Company B (Ola) had their testing in India with a completely revised powertrain (Both Traction battery and traction motor is almost developed from scratch).


The patent count was given to show the amount of tech mind share given by a start up (Ather) and contrasted it with a well established company (Bajaj). [/quote]

You understand that for all companies, the patent counts are there to impress the investors + KPI/measurable for the employee performance right?
More than patent, having a stable product is what counts and it is too early to criticize Ola by comparing it with Ather, In fact Ola did invest and built a proper manufacturing plant than the minuscule inferior manufacturing unit of what Ather have.

Apart from all these, the success of a company lies in their business strategy and then comes all the qualities of their product. In a business pitch, more than the product, angels are looking on how the break-even approaches, very similarly if Ather makes an exemplary product, but failed to make profit, thats the end of the road for them. So lets hope both of them and more of them comes to our market so as a consumer the control remains with us
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Old 22nd September 2021, 07:28   #629
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Default Re: Ola's made-in-India Electric scooter, now launched at Rs. 99,999

More details on MH pricing by ACI

https://www.autocarindia.com/bike-ne...plained-422125
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Old 22nd September 2021, 11:26   #630
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Default Re: Ola's made-in-India Electric scooter, now launched at Rs. 99,999

Estimated delivery dates are getting preponed.
https://mobile.twitter.com/shivanshk...94449906241543
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