[Electromotive]

Originally Posted by amey027

6. One issue observed in test runs was the initial lag in throttle response. That's not something you can fix via OTA. That lag exists because motor is designed to cut-off if brakes are applied, similar to all the Chinese scooters. In ICE scooters, engine doesn't cut-off when brakes are applied, just goes into idling. All the electric scooters in India have this issue except Ather, because they replicated the ICE behaviour. (Motor doesn't turn off completely even if brakes are applied). Unless Ola can redesign their throttle and write a new firmware for their motor control, this issue is here to stay. They can minimize it, but let's see.

Forgive my ignorance, but can you clarify exactly what you mean?

EVs do not have a clutch, the motor is directly connected to the wheel via belt or gears. So any torque applied by the motor is always getting to the wheel. Simulating ICE like behavior should be a matter of controlling (via PWM) the torque the motor is generating. Ather also follows the same design -- motor is connected to the wheel via belt. So, they are simulating ICE behavior in software.

My question therefore is - why can't OLA replicate the same? It is functionality completely implemented in software is it not? Or is there an assumption that the motor controller firmware cannot be updated? OLA is probably using a controller supplied by ST or Bosch and all those can be configured and controlled via software.

Originally Posted by amey027

But the sensible side of me is 99% sure they will fail.

That's a bold statement.

[Axe77]

The Ken has done a great piece on the entire Ola EV story which is, in typical Ken style, well researched and a great read. It is a subscription based site so the article sits behind a paywall. You can get a single article too for a fee or get their annual membership if you are interested in Ken otherwise. It resonates with a lot of my own thoughts about the whole Ola EV story at many levels and otherwise adds information which corroborates or explains what I thought otherwise.

<https://the-ken.com/story/the-hazards-of-ola-electrics-need-for-speed/>
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[muni]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Yes that is the official reply I received from the management. We were informed that a rear guard will be offered as an accessory, but a pillion footrest is not.

But looking at some of the other pictures online (after Hemanth was informed at the TD event on this being an accessory) - looks like the rear guard has a footrest along with it. So either the management is wrong, or some of the product shots are wrong. Guess we will need to find out!

Isn't a saree guard mandated by RTO. The chassis design and the ABS plastic Body would pose a challenge in designing a good resting fixture without taking the chassis as anchoring element.

The Grab rail having too much of play is possibly due to not getting good anchoring support from the chassis.

Originally Posted by amey027

As much I am impressed by the on-paper specs, I'll always steer clear of both products primarily because they have the Ola badge.

Not sure how many people here actually work in the Auto industry, but Ola's reputation isn't great. Bhavish is an ambitious business person, but he doesn't understand hardware tech and automobiles are some of the most complex out there.

1. The scooters aren't designed for the Indian environment and have undergone little mechanical modification. So long term reliability is a huge question (Industry Insider Gossip: Their chassis cracked during abuse track testing)

2. Ola doesn't have a strong engineering/product/quality team. People compare them to Ather, but Ather is run by some of the best product people in the country. Their co-founders themselves come from a strong engineering background. There's a huge difference

3. Adding to the above point, Ather knew their 1st Gen product (450) was buggy and hence limited themselves to only 1 city and a few thousand deliveries. Once they resolved all bugs in the 2nd Gen product (450X), they are scaling across the country. Ola has bugs, as seen in most reviews posted online but are still planning to launch aggressively. That's a stupid thing to do

4. Coming to the important bits: Battery & Motor. Neither are liquid cooled because neither were designed for Indian ambient conditions. Good luck operating in 40 degree in the summer. Ather has a fan cooled Motor and pseudo liquid cooled battery pack

5. Pricing: All these are introductory prices only. Their battery size is approx 4kWh compared to Ather's 2.8 kWh. That's almost 1.5 times, additionally the motor is bigger as well. Yet, they are pricing lower than Ather by 20k. Ather is just earning some profit on unit sales. So unless Ola is planning to sell their scooter at 50% loss perpetually, expect a steep price rise over the next 2 years.

6. One issue observed in test runs was the initial lag in throttle response. That's not something you can fix via OTA. That lag exists because motor is designed to cut-off if brakes are applied, similar to all the Chinese scooters. In ICE scooters, engine doesn't cut-off when brakes are applied, just goes into idling. All the electric scooters in India have this issue except Ather, because they replicated the ICE behaviour. (Motor doesn't turn off completely even if brakes are applied). Unless Ola can redesign their throttle and write a new firmware for their motor control, this issue is here to stay. They can minimize it, but let's see.

I really hope Ola can somehow pull through so there's some genuine competition in the EV industry. But the sensible side of me is 99% sure they will fail.

You make some passionate and bold statements some of them I am in agreement.


For 1 and 2 of your points Not designed for India and Good Tech resources to handle:

Hope your industry gossip is not true as too many people would be using them and fundamental chassis issues cropping up would spell disaster. Its high time the government brings in some kind of protocol which makes Manufacturers spell out Test data and specs which give information on various parameters like Load carrying, Safety and reliability. This can be scrutinized and a minimum requirement bar can be set. The fact that Ola ran away laughing with so many Bookings without having a product that was certified to a certain extent in the indian Market shows how robust our Automobile regulations are.

The Etergo scooter was conceptualized in 2015 and it took the bunch of highly talented Dutch engineers( A couple of Indians also were part) 3 years to get to a proper working prototype. If you follow the Etergo Appscooter videos on Youtube, you get a sense of it.

They struggled to get funds flowing from investors due to strict regulations and were almost bankrupt due to lack of business acumen and the corona pandemic. Ola bought them in 2020 at a cheap price including the Talent also which I suspect are still part of the design Team. If the design team are there, we can be sure that some good solutions will come sooner as these are mechanical challenges which need some expertise especially the electric motor cooling issues and also the Performance related reliability issues of the parts. The Chassis and Suspension would be tested to the limit as well.


Point 3 : Ather handled its bugs well with less exposure initially and Ola going global with the bugs.

It does appear so and we hope the issues which are predominantly software related are taken care of. Ola is rushing things and there is no doubt about it Bhavish needs to wake up and not make blockbuster announcements and promises. I really feel for the Ola design/engineering folks who have to deal with crazy targets. Whether they are upto it or not we will know soon.

4 Battery and Motor:
Ola opting to go for Performance benchmarks might have exposed the design and reliability limitations of the battery and motor. Hope the Etergo folks are still there to come up with solutions.

5 Current Pricing and Future Price increase:
They may have wafer thin margins and may increase prices later. They have advantage of volumes to help them keep it viable. The projections are quite adventurous and a failure to get consistent bookings would have big implications.

6 Throttle response:
I believe this can be handled through software unless the Throttle sensors have an inherent delay. I would hazard a guess its mostly software related than hardware. Wondering what tech they have Throttle drive by wire, Cable or any other sensor driven.

99% failure prediction is too much. I am confident they will pull it off provided most of it is software and they are quick to handle mechanical issues with recall if necessary.

They can delay by a month if required and give the Media people another refined product if they have to take us into confidence. This wont definitely happen as the Investors would be breathing down their neck to show some numbers. That's how capitalism works.

If any of you is curious to know some background to this Etergo Scooter to Ola scooter transition saga, please read the below article. Feel sorry for the Etergo guys how it panned out for them. We are the beneficiaries at the end and hope the initial hard work put by these folks doesn't go to waste.

https://inc42.com/features/olas-eter...gry-investors/

Check the pics where the center stand is there and hope Ola guys provide it as an accessory. Does it affect ground clearance and Heat dissipation

[Rocketscience]

Originally Posted by amey027

6. One issue observed in test runs was the initial lag in throttle response. That's not something you can fix via OTA. That lag exists because motor is designed to cut-off if brakes are applied, similar to all the Chinese scooters. In ICE scooters, engine doesn't cut-off when brakes are applied, just goes into idling. All the electric scooters in India have this issue except Ather, because they replicated the ICE behaviour. (Motor doesn't turn off completely even if brakes are applied). Unless Ola can redesign their throttle and write a new firmware for their motor control, this issue is here to stay. They can minimize it, but let's see.

While i agree with the post, i can't seem to get the technical side of this point

On one side the throttle lag as i have heard is both when giving throttle input and the throttle takes a second to respond and when the throttle is released to brake the scooter keeps on accelerating for half a second and then the motor stops and autocar termed this behaviour as downright dangerous.

On the other side in ICE engines lets say you are in 4th gear and you release the throttle and step on the brakes, the fuel is cutoff and the engine because of its friction and being in gear and thus attached to the wheels also works in slowing engine down, it is obviously not producing any power at this point but it is obviously producing some drag which helps in slowing down (engine braking) and the lower the gear the higher the engine braking. When the RPMs reach around idle at this point and you have considerably slowed down at this point the fueling cuts back in but ideally the car is slow at this point and you would have to depress the clutch and go into neutral anyways, if you however engage the clutch pedal or shift to neutral you have essentially disconnected the wheels from the engine and you get no engine braking and the fueling runs the engine at around idle at that time.

How can this be related to electric scooters?
Here too the motor is connected to the wheels directly and when the throttle is released and brake is applied the friction from motor should slow the wheels down further and result in some engine braking, however if regenerative system is used and pardon my ignorance but i'am pretty sure it will increase the drag further and use that energy to produce electricity and you get engine braking ultra pro max at that point and you also get some more battery and more braking power. How and what exactly is Ather doing it different and like ICE engines here? Obviously the motor cant keep running that will reduce the braking force and will be downright dangerous.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Ola Electric Customises Ola S1 Pro for The Netherlands Embassy in India

Press release as below -

Bangalore, November 17, 2021: Ola Electric, India’s leading manufacturer of electric two-wheelers, today announced that it is building nine (9) customized Ola S1 Pro scooters for the Embassy of The Netherlands on special order.

These nine scooters will be used across the three diplomatic missions of The Netherlands in India and will come painted in the custom orange shade, the official color of The Netherlands, and will also sport the official logo of The Netherlands. Ola has named the color ‘Dutch Oranje’.

The advanced manufacturing and industry 4.0 processes implemented at the Ola Futurefactory enabled Ola to customize the scooters effortlessly and within days without interruptions to its regular production.

The Ola S1 Pro scooters will be delivered to the Netherlands Embassy in New Delhi, and to the Consulates General in Mumbai and Bengaluru, once Ola begins customer deliveries in the coming weeks.

The Ola S1 range of scooters has the best design, best performance, and best technology and has been receiving fantastic feedback from customers who are test riding it across India. The scooters are being manufactured in India at the Ola Futurefactory, the largest, most advanced, and greenest 2W factory in the world. This will be Ola’s global manufacturing hub and Ola aims to launch these scooters in international markets such as Europe, UK, Australia, New Zealand, South East Asia, and others next year.

Speaking on the occasion, Bhavish Aggarwal, Founder and CEO, Ola, said “We are excited to build these custom scooters for the embassy of The Netherlands and are proud that they have joined our Mission Electric, which is to ensure that no petrol two-wheelers are sold in India after 2025. These custom scooters are a testament to our advanced design and manufacturing process that enabled us to seamlessly develop, test, and build a custom-designed scooter within days. In the future, we will be looking at providing custom paint finishes to our customers as well so they can make their Ola S1 uniquely theirs.”

Marten van den Berg, Ambassador from The Netherlands Embassy said “We are excited to purchase these custom-designed Ola S1 Pro scooters. They are beautifully designed and customised to the Dutch Oranje colour with the Netherlands logo. We chose the Ola S1 as an important part of our commitment towards reducing emissions which is essential not only for the environment but also to achieve the SGDs. It is critically important to go electric to address climate change in an urban environment. I look forward to the delivery of the vehicles so that we can replace our existing scooters in our office with Ola S1 Pro electric scooters.”

[Gansan]

Originally Posted by muni

Isn't a saree guard mandated by RTO. The chassis design and the ABS plastic Body would pose a challenge in designing a good resting fixture without taking the chassis as anchoring element.

My thoughts exactly. Lady pillion passengers not only sit sideways. They climb on to the two wheeler by using the side foot rest as a step. It should be able to take that stress, and I don't see how it will, if it is mounted on the body. It needs to be anchored to the frame.

I think the RTO requirement is only for crash bar and sari guard for motorbikes, not scooters. Sari guards come integrated with a side foot rest and will be attached to the chassis. So far there has been no scooter without a side pillion foot rest, and the question of a sari guard for them doesn't arise. This is a first.

That white Ola scooter in the photo seems to have petal discs. I remember seeing only normal discs in the photos so far?

[muni]

Originally Posted by Gansan

My thoughts exactly. Lady pillion passengers not only sit sideways. They climb on to the two wheeler by using the side foot rest as a step. It should be able to take that stress, and I don't see how it will, if it is mounted on the body. It needs to be anchored to the frame.

I think the RTO requirement is only for crash bar and sari guard for motorbikes, not scooters. Sari guards come integrated with a side foot rest and will be attached to the chassis. So far there has been no scooter without a side pillion foot rest, and the question of a sari guard for them doesn't arise. This is a first.

That white Ola scooter in the photo seems to have petal discs. I remember seeing only normal discs in the photos so far?

You are right on the sari guard not mandated for scooters. I am curious how they would implement this without punching holes and accessing the chassis frame.

Etergo must have brought all the scooters that they manufactured with them and hence we see the center stand and the petal discs. The pricing of Etergo was about 3400 Euros ( 3 Lakh rupees) and might have had good quality of all parts and good finish to complement.

Ola would have diluted the quality of the scooter to price it aggressively while getting vendors to price the components aggressively. They would have probably set the price and demanded if they can deliver or not.

[rascalangel]

Originally Posted by Electromotive

Since OLA already includes hill hold and reversing functions, the motor controller already has the necessary hardware to implement ABS like functionality via software.

No they dont. For ABS to work you need to release the pressure on the calipers when the wheel locks up. While the lock up can be sensed using the motor controller, to release the calipers you need extra HW in terms of solenoid/control for brake oil master cylinder. So unless they have this HW preinstalled they cant do anything for ABS through SW.

Originally Posted by amey027

6. One issue observed in test runs was the initial lag in throttle response. That's not something you can fix via OTA. That lag exists because motor is designed to cut-off if brakes are applied, similar to all the Chinese scooters. In ICE scooters, engine doesn't cut-off when brakes are applied, just goes into idling. All the electric scooters in India have this issue except Ather, because they replicated the ICE behaviour. (Motor doesn't turn off completely even if brakes are applied). Unless Ola can redesign their throttle and write a new firmware for their motor control, this issue is here to stay. They can minimize it, but let's see.

On the contrary, if they can enable cruise control via OTA then fixing this is very much possible via OTA. They haven't tuned their controller properly. Its a SW fix. Unless the throttle sensor or motor has significant deadband (deadband = a range from zero where applying input doesnt give any output). Motor deadband can still be resolved in SW. Sensor deadband will require replacement of the sensor.

[null]

Isn't it an unfair trade practice to force customers to buy their expensive insurance because people want to buy the scooter?

A 30-40% more expensive policy compared to the industry average for a 1 lakh scooter.

[adrena]

I've always wondered about the ergonomics of the Ola S1. Isn't the floorboard too high off the ground to be comfy for even average riders? Or is the seat so high that it makes it ok?

Someone who has ridden this and an average Vespa can help me please?

[snallagatla]

Originally Posted by amey027

I really hope Ola can somehow pull through so there's some genuine competition in the EV industry. But the sensible side of me is 99% sure they will fail.

That's indeed a bold statement. However, Haven't we felt the same way when Reliance mobile and Jio were launched? I really hope Ola to be another revolution and succeed.

[muni]

Originally Posted by adrena

I've always wondered about the ergonomics of the Ola S1. Isn't the floorboard too high off the ground to be comfy for even average riders? Or is the seat so high that it makes it ok?

Someone who has ridden this and an average Vespa can help me please?

No problem whatsoever on the ergonomics part. Feels pretty normal. Have ridden all types of scooters and the Ola scooter is as good as the most ergonomical scooter that is there . Flat board would have helped for luggage and the sort but this cannot be changed in the future also for Ola scooter.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by adrena

I've always wondered about the ergonomics of the Ola S1. Isn't the floorboard too high off the ground to be comfy for even average riders? Or is the seat so high that it makes it ok?

Someone who has ridden this and an average Vespa can help me please?

Let me try to explain better.

Floorboard is generally high in such electric scooters - I find no major difference in Ather and OLA regarding this. The difference is that on the Ather - the rider's seat is low (similar to an Activa) at 765mm, whereas on the OLA - it is higher at 792mm.

Now personally for my height (5'11") - I feel the OLA is more comfortable. On the Ather, the combination of lower seat height and higher floorboard results in a knees up stance, and even the handlebar seems a touch lower than I would have liked. Whereas all additional seat height helps with the right posture on the OLA.

Also, the sloping seat makes for an uncomfortable long distance posture on the Ather whereas it is more natural on the OLA. As long as you don't face issues flat footing on the OLA - you shouldn't have complaints with ergonmics (by scooter standards).

[Akshay6988]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Let me try to explain better.

Floorboard is generally high in such electric scooters - I find no major difference in Ather and OLA regarding this. The difference is that on the Ather - the rider's seat is low (similar to an Activa) at 765mm, whereas on the OLA - it is higher at 792mm.

I understand due to more height of the floorboard, the side stand is unusually longer. But is it strong enough to hold load when some people sit on a parked scooter ? As you know we desis love to treat other bikes scooters as our make shift chair everywhere !

[adrena]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Floorboard is generally high in such electric scooters

I've ridden the Chetak which has its battery where an ICE engine would be making the floorboard slimmer and easier to get feet onto.

Glad that Ola doesn't seem to have this issue.