[drt_rdr]

BHPians, want to randomly discuss and ramble on about your favourite motorcycles under 400ccs?

This is the place for all of it and more. Well, not all of it. Let's keep it to existing bike, upcoming bikes, and ones that there's a good chance of coming to our market. Let's also keep it to discussions that don't find a better place elsewhere. For example:

Have you been wondering how the Duke 390 does as an adventure bike as compared to a hero xpulse?

Do you want to gush about the Honda CBR250R while you wait and wish for the CBR250RR to come along?

Do you want to dissect the possibilities of building an offroader out of a Gixxer 250 SF?

Have you been crushing on the Hero Splendor, especially in the cafe racer trim and want to post a poem about it?

Do you want to discuss the CB300R versus the possibly arriving Z300 and MT03?

Do you want to apply for membership with my one-man fanclub for Suzuki Motorcycles India?

Let the discussions and chit chat flow.

Inazuma was a near perfect successor to the GS150R, but for me, it's a bit too heavy, both on my pocket in terms of maintenance costs, and in terms of actual weight.

The gixxer250 fairly satisfactorily solves both these troubles but, I have to agree with you, it just doesn't have the same kind of mature appeal even though it's a fine vehicle on its own merits. Wish suzuki locally made a general purpose bike in single cylinder format. I haven't extensively tested the Gixxer but I think it's going to fall short of the GS and the Inazuma's ability to be lugged. I could go uphill on a rocky path in 3rd gear with a pillion on the GS.

Now I have to go look into whether the common consumables like the air and oil filters, cables, brake pads, chain and sprockets and such on the Inazuma can be replaced by the ones from the Gixxer. That could possibly breathe life into the Inazuma dream again.

[shancz]

Originally Posted by drt_rdr

- Inazuma was a near perfect successor to the GS150R, but for me, it's a bit too heavy, both on my pocket in terms of maintenance costs, and in terms of actual weight.

- Now I have to go look into whether the common consumables like the air and oil filters, cables, brake pads, chain and sprockets and such on the Inazuma can be replaced by the ones from the Gixxer. That could possibly breathe life into the Inazuma dream again.

- Agree and I felt the same but IIRC some review said that the heavy weight keeps it firmly planted on the highways.
I didn't have the money to buy it when it was available, when I had the money, it wasn't

- Suzuki have already made that leap : the SEP series on their products now but they're becoming just another mass market product instead of standing out from the crowd like they used to. But I guess they're just trying to capture market share by adapting to popular expectations, which helps them stay in the game which is also important.
On the spares I doubt if Inazuma will have matching spares with the current engines, that was a different era,

[drt_rdr]

Originally Posted by shancz

Suzuki have already made that leap : the SEP series on their products now but they're becoming just another mass market product instead of standing out from the crowd like they used to. But I guess they're just trying to capture market share by adapting to popular expectations, which helps them stay in the game which is also important.

Yeah, they've jumped ship from selling models catering to adult sensibilities to targeting a younger age group in India. Not that there's anything wrong with that, its just too bad for people expecting no nonsense bikes. You barely have any of those left these days.

The Mahindra Mojo is another one of those rare no-nonsense bikes, but unfortunately, again, a bit too heavy and ugly.

But in defense of the gixxer250, I don't think it's just a cookie cutter bike. Riding it felt natural and familiar to me, and that's a very suzuki quality I think. My major complaint is the seat and suspension are a bit hard for my kind of use. Everything else, I can easily live with. They export these to japan where they're supposedly popular among motogymkhana enthusiasts for exactly that reason of user friendliness of engine and stable but agile handling.

As for the common spares on the Inazuma, I'm not expecting any engine related spares to be compatible, but just thinking if the peripheral, quick wearing\prone to damage stuff like brake pads, chain, levers, fork oil seals, and things that are prohibitively expensive can be replaced with locally made OEM stuff that still works just as well. Maybe it's all wishful thinking.

[shancz]

Originally Posted by drt_rdr

1. You barely have any of those left these days.
2. But in defense of the gixxer250,
3. Maybe it's all wishful thinking.

1. True, I am hoping the Pulsar 250 twins/FZ25 can fill the gap but the cc benchmark has moved up to 350-500 from the 250 when the Inazuma was launched. Suzuki not being there is a downer for sure.

2. I haven't ridden it but they would be leaning more on the sports side of things. Not sure how much of a difference adjusting the rear suspension makes.

3. It is
They aren't updating the Inazuma since 2017 it seems, pulled it off when ABS became mandatory in some countries. In effect its a discontinued motorcycle just waiting for an official declaration when the last of the countries update their mandates to ABS.
Don't think a large enough market for a twin cylinder 250 exists for it to be resurrected.

So buying/finding one now wouldn't be very prudent.
Maybe the Dominar could take its place extrapolating the relevance of a 250 in 2014 to 2021.

[shancz]

Originally Posted by anjan_c2007

-The write up does not mention about our not so super bikes

Agree hadn't even heard of those and yes the one superbike I have missed riding is the RD350 but the RD175 did capture our attention especially in its last cat-con iteration.

But on scooters I think you've captured them all, even if not named specifically but the flow through the different phases captured the essence

Originally Posted by anjan_c2007

And also the moped and lighter two wheeler invasion since the mid 1960's, the scooterette invasion since the 1990's in our markets in the alternate commuter segments don't find any mention.

Yes, no experience with the mopeds except the Hero Puch 2G which was a hoot to ride in the city, it was one of the most sought after vehicle in our circle.
Scooterettes or "scooty" in popular speak was also popular but the "image/design" had a lot to do with it until the Activa came along and changed it forever.
I remember with our first gen Activa, one of the shopkeepers in the market came to me and asked if it was geared and said that "this doesn't look like a "scooty" its a scooter, looks complete" no other vehicle had evoked such a response from the everyday user and the sales numbers reflect the same.

Originally Posted by anjan_c2007

And anything very lengthy (already my first post is so very long) I feel, attracts less readership.

Agree, the reason why I skipped naming the bikes and anecdotes. I wanted to reply to this thread yesterday but is difficult doing so on a phone to a longish post but never got a chance to get to the computer so slogging it off on the phone.

Originally Posted by anjan_c2007

titling this writeup as our recent history of two wheelers, it will be incomplete without these so many varieties that came, despite the iron curtain till the early1980's on our two wheeler industry.

Thanks and the Bajaj Super we had was delivered 14 years after booking, a different era no one would be able to imagine today, me included and thankfully history.

Originally Posted by drt_rdr

seems like a far cry from the likes of the GS and Inazuma.

Of course but I am talking about the role. If I got the Inazuma then it would be primarily as a higher capacity(relatively) tourer which isn't a pain to ride in the city, today the Dominar serves the same purpose. I have ridden it in city and out, its a bit stiff, has enough grunt, quite stable, doesn't burn in the city and surprisingly the easy 1st gear made going through Bangalore's ORR traffic a breeze without stalling.

The Inazuma which I haven't ridden but I am assuming trademark Suzuki refinement from its 250cc parallel twin, stable, easy in the city and will outlast the owner if spares are available.

Originally Posted by drt_rdr

I still think sub 300 cc bikes are very relevant though. I mean, I don't think I can put more horsepower to good use under everyday riding.

Of course they are what the 150-160s were in 2014 is what the 200-300s are today. Aspirational to many, optimal for some and utalitarian for a few. Most importantly they're the transit point to bigger bikes and quite important to gauge the market's cc capacity.

Originally Posted by drt_rdr

The Honda CB200X is probably the only other bike on the cheaper side of the market right now that seems somewhat close to the experience.

No experience with it but I would rather take the FZ25 albeit expensive.

Originally Posted by drt_rdr

I test rode the new pulsars. The seating is not really upright and you have to reach a bit for the handlebar. But it appears you can adjust the handlebar a bit backward on the 250 N for a bit more relaxed reach and sitting position.

Probably the slightly hunched forward position for a sporty character. If the F250 has clip ons then wrists will hurt, especially in traffic.

Originally Posted by drt_rdr

- So, it seems to be a compromise of sporty and everyday usability.
-The FZ is probably the most practical out of the current bunch of 250s.

- Thanks for the tips, Gixxer250 seems good, I haven't ridden it so this is quite helpful.
- Probably, a friend who was looking at a comfortable city bike was looking at it as an expensive but comfortable option but then the XPulse arrived and the comfort factor went up several notches at a cheaper price.

[drt_rdr]

Originally Posted by shancz

Of course but I am talking about the role. If I got the Inazuma then it would be primarily as a higher capacity(relatively) tourer which isn't a pain to ride in the city, today the Dominar serves the same purpose.

Yeah. I should probably try it before I knock it. 400 ccs will likely make for a nice luggable engine for everyday riding too, though not sure if it'll be as relatively effortless as the Suzukis.

Of course they are what the 150-160s were in 2014 is what the 200-300s are today. Aspirational to many, optimal for some and utalitarian for a few. Most importantly they're the transit point to bigger bikes and quite important to gauge the market's cc capacity.

Keeping aside aspirations\market standards though, and looking at it purely from a practical perspective, I think a lot of Indians would be happy for life with a 250 or 300, me included.

More than adequate punch for the city, decent enough speed for the highways. Fair enough FE. And if you pick a light enough bike out of the bunch, it will be very live-withable. The more cubes you ask for, the heavier the bikes tend to be. There's very few exceptions to this.

- Thanks for the tips, Gixxer250 seems good, I haven't ridden it so this is quite helpful.

I'm keen on getting it, given the lack of better suiting options, but I'm also waiting to check out the 2022 CB300R before I take the plunge. The promise of that 145 kg kerb weight has me up at nights sometimes. If only the Suzuki was a few kgs lighter, I wouldn't even think twice. BS6 has dulled the appeal of a lot of bikes for me.

[shancz]

Originally Posted by drt_rdr

400 ccs will likely make for a nice luggable engine for everyday riding too, though not sure if it'll be as relatively effortless as the Suzukis.

Definitely not as effortless as the Suzuki due the nature of their power and torque delivery.

Originally Posted by drt_rdr

I think a lot of Indians would be happy for life with a 250 or 300, me included.

True, me included except the long tours when you need the ability to cruise at higher speeds on the empty and well done highways when you get them.
My takeaway from my first long trip(Bangalore-Pune) on the RTR was that I need a bigger engine and liquid cooling for the sustained cruise. The nature of the bike matters a lot too.

Originally Posted by drt_rdr

The promise of that 145 kg kerb weight has me up at nights sometimes.

This would make it a good multi role bike for upto 300kms rides maybe minus the prices and the big wing limitation.

Hope you are checking similar weights wet/dry.
Example my RTR 180 is weighted as 137kg but that includes 90% fuel (14.4l), engine oil(1l), and toolkit. Subtracting them from 137 makes it 121-122kgs. RE also mention their weight with 90% fluids but this has to be checked for every bike.

IMO the best way is to ride and see how you feel, keep the numbers aside.
Example a friend went took a TD of the Dominar and the Himalayan and found the Himalayan to be easier to use in the city over the Dominar for his 5' 11" frame and liking.
His comment was that the Dominar makes you feel its weight more than the Himalayan especially during U turns.

Originally Posted by drt_rdr

BS6 has dulled the appeal of a lot of bikes for me.

A fact of life we've to live with
I clearly remember how impressive was the 3rd gear surge and exhaust note of the first generation of the CBZ and how both of them felt suppressed in its Euro 2 iteration.

[drt_rdr]

Originally Posted by shancz

True, me included except the long tours when you need the ability to cruise at higher speeds on the empty and well done highways when you get them.
My takeaway from my first long trip(Bangalore-Pune) on the RTR was that I need a bigger engine and liquid cooling for the sustained cruise. The nature of the bike matters a lot too.

Personally though, for the kind of travelling I intend to do, I can easily live with 100kmph cruising speed or even 80-90. I'm not interested in more and a 250 can easily manage this. I value tractability of the engine and a versatile chassis more in a roadbike, similar to how the GS is. In fact, I was thinking I'd go down a tooth on the front sprocket on the 250 to get a faster run upto 100.

I don't know about the other air\oil cooled 250s but the Gixxer supposedly has excellent heat management characteristics even at higher speeds and spirited running over longer durations, despite not being liquid cooled. Seems like Suzuki engineered it very thoughtfully, which is really no surprise considering suzuki's penchant for squeezing efficiency out of lower-end equipment. That makes it a very attractive proposition. Have to experience it myself to see what the reality is though.

This would make it a good multi role bike for upto 300kms rides maybe minus the prices and the big wing limitation.

From what I remember of the 2019 model, the seat and suspension setup is basically a bit hard, similar to the Gixxer. You'd need to get some work done on the seat to make it comfortable for longer distances.

Since Honda is manufacturing it locally this time, hopefully they can price it better. But I'm not expecting any magical numbers. This will likely be up in the BMW G310R territory considering it's also getting upgraded with a slipper clutch.

Hope you are checking similar weights wet/dry.

Oh, yes. The GS150R's kerb weight is listed as 148 or so kilos. You'd think it's a handful to manage, but I fill up with just 200 km worth of petrol at a time in that 16 litre tank (that's barely above the ~3 litre reserve), and it handles more confidently than you'd imagine.

But the benchmark of handling is at the wet weights, or atleast with similar amounts of fuel in the tank.

Since, unlike carburetted bikes, you can't run fuel injected bikes till they're dry, you'd have to have a litre or two as buffer at all times. And on a bike like the CB300R with just a 10 litre tank capacity, unless you like very frequent fuelling stops, you'd have to fill up a minimum of 6 litres to go 200km. Added up, that comes very close to the declared tank capacity. So, the practical running weight after fuelling would be very close to the kerb weight. The gixxer isn't much better off at similar fuel mileage and 12 litres capacity.

I agree that weight is not necessarily THE criteria to judge handling. But it is an objective factor when looking at similarly specced bikes. 10 kgs should make a difference even in everyday circumstances. And it gets further amplified when considering the unsprung mass on the CB is lower thanks to the upside down suspension and supposedly lighter wheels and hollowed out aluminium axles, petal discs and such. And if you're interested in speed, the power to weight on the CB is very much in its favor, even comparing it to other bikes in its own class.

Then again, the weight on the Suzuki is not necessarily a bad thing. The GS is engineered to be very durable thanks to the thicker gauge of metal and heavier parts used all around. Even today, I get surprised at the amount of abuse the chassis has withstood considering how disrespectfully I've ridden it over the years. If the gixxer is made similar, which I suspect Suzuki wouldn't stray from, that's a very compelling arguement for a buyer with long term intentions.

A fact of life we've to live with

Which is unfortunate, especially considering we're steadily moving away from IC engines. If only the government had stuck to the plan of phasing in BS6 by 2024...

[shancz]

Originally Posted by drt_rdr

Then again, the weight on the Suzuki is not necessarily a bad thing. The GS is engineered to be very durable thanks to the thicker gauge of metal and heavier parts used all around.

True, IMO based on what I have read the Gixxer 250 comes closest to an evolution from the GS.

GS is already a part of history as a very capable but short lived bike and I hope Suzuki keeps going on forward from the Gixxer 250.

Good Luck on your purchase, 25, 250 or 300

[drt_rdr]

Originally Posted by shancz

True, IMO based on what I have read the Gixxer 250 comes closest to an evolution from the GS.

GS is already a part of history as a very capable but short lived bike and I hope Suzuki keeps going on forward from the Gixxer 250.

Good Luck on your purchase, 25, 250 or 300

Thanks. I'll need the luck and some good judgement since this may be my last IC engine buy. We'll inevitably have to start coping with EVs in the near future.

I've also been waiting for TVS to make a bigger RTR or dual purpose. Seems TVS just wants to keep shining up its current stable.

Anwyay, hope you find what you're looking for as well.

[i_rock098]

Originally Posted by shancz

True, me included except the long tours when you need the ability to cruise at higher speeds on the empty and well done highways when you get them.
My takeaway from my first long trip(Bangalore-Pune) on the RTR was that I need a bigger engine and liquid cooling for the sustained cruise. The nature of the bike matters a lot too.

If I am correct the maximum speed limit for two wheeler in India is 80km anywhere. Even if its an open highway.

While +10, +20 km would kind of be acceptable in a practical sense anything above would technically be extremely illegal.

I think the RTR can do 80-100 easily and don't see the need of a bigger engine to go faster since that is against the law. Unless I am missing something?

[jignesh.pithia]

Originally Posted by i_rock098

If I am correct the maximum speed limit for two wheeler in India is 80km anywhere. Even if its an open highway.

While +10, +20 km would kind of be acceptable in a practical sense anything above would technically be extremely illegal.

I think the RTR can do 80-100 easily and don't see the need of a bigger engine to go faster since that is against the law. Unless I am missing something?

Please refer to below.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_limits_in_India

Speed limit are defined as per the road type/condition, unless special provisions are made by State govt to reduce it. for 2 wheeler the restricted speed by some states are close to 60 KMPH. in other states it depeneds on which type of highway you are riding

[i_rock098]

Originally Posted by jignesh.pithia

Please refer to below.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_limits_in_India

Speed limit are defined as per the road type/condition, unless special provisions are made by State govt to reduce it. for 2 wheeler the restricted speed by some states are close to 60 KMPH. in other states it depeneds on which type of highway you are riding

That actually makes the point even more valid that anything triple digit in a motorcycle is going to break the law in most states and you are liable for penalty. Why bother for a high capacity/fast motorcycle in that case when you are going to be breaking the law to use it on public road unless ofcourse the owner has some track sessions in mind.

[Aditya]

The last of enthusiast ICE motorcyles upto 400cc - Posts moved to a new thread.

[ebonho]

How perfect that the Duke 390 comes in just under the cubic capacity cap of the topic being discussed.

I don't see a better bike globally in the sub half liter segment, forget India.

If you want to burn the liquid black dino juice before its only available in museum test tubes cryo preserved, then this is it.

Cheers, Doc