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Old 6th August 2022, 11:08   #1
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Default TVS patents hydrogen fuel cell-powered e-scooter

TVS Motors is developing a hydrogen fuel cell-powered electric scooter. Details of the new model have now been revealed through a patent filing.

TVS patents hydrogen fuel cell-powered e-scooter-screenshot-20220806-110239.jpg

The patent image appears to show a pair of hydrogen canisters integrated into the front fairing, just behind the downtube, while the filler nozzle is located on the front apron.

The battery is positioned under the rider’s feet and the fuel cell is tucked-in under the seat. The image also reveals other components like the pressure regulator, flow meter and shut-off valve.

One of the main advantages of hydrogen fuel cell-powered vehicles is that refilling hydrogen is as easy as filling petrol. However, storing hydrogen is tricky, and the infrastructure required is still in its nascent stage.

Source: The Hindu

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Last edited by GTO : 8th August 2022 at 10:22. Reason: Not leaked. Standard process of patent filing
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Old 6th August 2022, 13:56   #2
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Default Re: TVS patents hydrogen fuel cell-powered e-scooter

Kudos to TVS for bringing out cutting edge technology to the mass market. Not just Plonking a battery and calling it a day Only hoping this product will be tested very well before release and also praying that the buyers take the plunge if the product is priced right and is of good quality. Exciting times ahead
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Old 6th August 2022, 14:38   #3
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Default Re: TVS patents hydrogen fuel cell-powered e-scooter

While this is going to be an unnecessary effort, hydrogen is a fail for cars, it will be stupidity for scooters, I have tried to calculate the tank volume.

Taking 4x as the efficiency difference between a car and scooter. Example, a car like camry gives 12kmpl, a scooter gives ~48kmpl, similarly an electric car gives 6km/kwh an electric scooter gives 24km/kwh.

Toyota Mirai has 5.6kg, 142 litre at 10,000psi and 700km wltp range, for a scooter with 200km range, we need 0.4kg of fuel and 10litre tank.

As per reports there are 2 fuel tanks, so here are the possibilities.

Two 5litre tanks at 10,000psi for 200km wltp range
Two 5litre tanks at 5000psi for 100km wltp range
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Old 6th August 2022, 14:49   #4
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Default Re: TVS patents hydrogen fuel cell-powered e-scooter

<Start Rant>A company with racing pedigree marketing the same often but when it comes to products just sticking majorly to mass market commuters. RR310 being an exception thanks to bmw. I used to be a fanboy but now lost hopes from this firm on ever bringing anything that has to do with performance above 200cc segment. Just sad. </End Rant>
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Old 6th August 2022, 15:32   #5
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Default Re: TVS patents hydrogen fuel cell-powered e-scooter

So in that patent image, 201 is the tank/canistors, 103 the battery. Then 202 must be the fuel cell, so that means no under seat storage.

This will be dead on arrival, considering the poor safety of two wheelers, the hydrogen explosion in a event of a crash will injure pedestrian and other riders with shock wave and sharpnel.

In a air compressor tank, the one used for filling air in tires, pneumatic tools etc are rated for 150psi to 200psi and when they explode due to rust, metal fatigue, puncture will cause serious damage to anything around it by just the explosive nature of rapid decompression.

We have seen videos of lpg/ cng auto rickshaws catching fire when crashing and those are again at a pressure rougly same as a air compressor tank.

Hydrogen tank is at 5000psi to 7000psi, just this sudden pressure release is enough to cause a massive damage and then add fire to the mix. This is a bad idea.

The tanks can in theory with just rapid pressure release can cause the tank to become a missile enough to penetrate a brick wall or a bus. So you will not be safe even in your home when some one crashes in the street.
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Old 6th August 2022, 15:47   #6
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Default Re: TVS patents hydrogen fuel cell-powered e-scooter

Good going TVS . Frankly can't understand some of the negative comments above. This is just a patent. What TVS Engineering is doing is exploring their research capabilites. Who knows, something that clicks here might make it to your ICE/electric scooters and bikes a few years down the line.
This isn't a company that is sitting idle but is constantly trying to innovate. They launched an almost perfect electric scooter without any drama (in stark contrast to the competition), they've been at Dakar for donkey's years and tried to bring in their learnings from there into the mass market. Heck, if I'm not mistaken something as simple as an external fuel lid was first seen on the TVS scooters and the NTorq was and probably is the only scooter out there with front forks and 12 in tires back and front.
Calling it dead on arrival without even seeing the finished product, or losing hope in the company for not making a superbike, or complaining about the range does nothing for anyone.
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Old 6th August 2022, 16:19   #7
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Default Re: TVS patents hydrogen fuel cell-powered e-scooter

Feel very glad about this effort. Wishing all the success.

Thankfully, TVS is talking about some real engineering here to get a zero emission vehicle.

Last edited by ajayc123 : 6th August 2022 at 16:20.
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Old 6th August 2022, 16:41   #8
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Default Re: TVS patents hydrogen fuel cell-powered e-scooter

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoumenD View Post
<Start Rant>A company with racing pedigree marketing the same often but when it comes to products just sticking majorly to mass market commuters. RR310 being an exception thanks to bmw. I used to be a fanboy but now lost hopes from this firm on ever bringing anything that has to do with performance above 200cc segment. Just sad. </End Rant>
If the RR310 had sold better, no doubt we'd have seen more along those lines from TVS sooner. So, you can thank the market for TVS not bringing out nice bikes. After all, a business is about making a profit and can't go willy nilly with their product launches, it has to be a calculated affair. That said, the RTR310 is probably close by now.
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Old 6th August 2022, 16:58   #9
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Default Re: TVS patents hydrogen fuel cell-powered e-scooter

I think we should be positive. The hydrogen movement must be a decentralised one. No big players at all, just common small businessmen operating small hydrogen generators, in huge numbers, like approx. 500-5000 units in a big city.

It will be a huge boost to the economy and employment.

But of course, this is what, just a patent. We shouldn't draw conclusions so early, like Iyencar said. We must support TVS in their research efforts.

And everything should work scientifically. If you test a hydrogen cylinder in extreme cases and it turns out well, then its fit for moderate use cases at least.. with the exception of an accident.

But hey, we did make 2200*C fire inducing petrol vehicles a success, I'm sure we can work something out.
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Old 6th August 2022, 17:13   #10
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Default Re: TVS patents hydrogen fuel cell-powered e-scooter

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoumenD View Post
<Start Rant>A company with racing pedigree marketing the same often but when it comes to products just sticking majorly to mass market commuters. RR310 being an exception thanks to bmw. I used to be a fanboy but now lost hopes from this firm on ever bringing anything that has to do with performance above 200cc segment. Just sad. </End Rant>
What racing pedigree does TVS have mate? They just win the national championship with their highly modified rr310s, competing with a bunch of privateers on practically, what are shed built bikes and then make lofty claims about "racing pedigree" and all. Atleast, they should compete in the world ssp300 class, where I am sure even some private teams will give them a run for their money.
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Old 6th August 2022, 17:20   #11
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Default Re: TVS patents hydrogen fuel cell-powered e-scooter

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Originally Posted by Samarth 619 View Post
I think we should be positive. The hydrogen movement must be a decentralised one. No big players at all, just common small businessmen operating small hydrogen generators, in huge numbers, like approx. 500-5000 units in a big city.

It will be a huge boost to the economy and employment.

.
Not sure that's a very bright idea. When big companies are barely able to make ev batteries that don't go up in flames I can't begin to imagine the size of the explosion when small companies are allowed to play with a highly combustible fuel like hydrogen!!
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Old 6th August 2022, 17:43   #12
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Default Re: TVS patents hydrogen fuel cell-powered e-scooter

Yeah, storing and transporting hydrogen could be a challenge - but the idea could be that we should find local manufacturing (like oxygen concentrators) and compared to fossil fuels this would be a much better/cheaper option.

But there is a fuel line+FuelCell storage+battery - not sure of power to weight ratio and overall cost of such vehicles and availability of Hydrogen fuel pumps.

If TVS or anyone wants this to be a good alternate, then this should do opposite of patenting - open source it. This patent is a very western idea...not sure why TVS is doing this - it will simply kill the technology if it really has potential.
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Old 6th August 2022, 18:10   #13
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Default Re: TVS patents hydrogen fuel cell-powered e-scooter

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Originally Posted by drt_rdr View Post
If the RR310 had sold better, no doubt we'd have seen more along those lines from TVS sooner. So, you can thank the market for TVS not bringing out nice bikes. After all, a business is about making a profit and can't go willy nilly with their product launches, it has to be a calculated affair. That said, the RTR310 is probably close by now.
With the teasers before Ronin release showing mountains and all, had expected they are getting the GS310’s TVS counterpart or at least an Xpulse competitor on RTR200 platform. But instead we got that bike. Maybe they have seen a market for that kind of bike but I really doubt it will have too many takers compared to an adv styled one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nitro.1000bhp View Post
What racing pedigree does TVS have mate? They just win the national championship with their highly modified rr310s, competing with a bunch of privateers on practically, what are shed built bikes and then make lofty claims about "racing pedigree" and all. Atleast, they should compete in the world ssp300 class, where I am sure even some private teams will give them a run for their money.
They have participated in Dakar since 2015 IIRC ofcourse in partnership with Sherco motorcycles. In 2021 though they didn’t participate probably because of a possible fallout with the partner. So its not like they don’t have any experience outside India.

Anyways guess we are going OT. Lets get back to the patent here. Would be interesting to see what transpires from this. IIRC they released RTR E200 a few years back? Didn’t really hear much about it later. Is it still on sale?

Last edited by SoumenD : 6th August 2022 at 18:11.
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Old 6th August 2022, 18:40   #14
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Default Re: TVS patents hydrogen fuel cell-powered e-scooter

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Originally Posted by SoumenD View Post

They have participated in Dakar since 2015 IIRC ofcourse in partnership with Sherco motorcycles. In 2021 though they didnít participate probably because of a possible fallout with the partner. So its not like they donít have any experience outside India.
Sherco has been in the Dakar scene since 2009. TVS is just a sponsor. The bikes are completely built by sherco , you or I could simply buy the bike and stick our own badges too if we had the moneys.
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Old 6th August 2022, 19:48   #15
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Default Re: TVS patents hydrogen fuel cell-powered e-scooter

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Originally Posted by SoumenD View Post
With the teasers before Ronin release showing mountains and all, had expected they are getting the GS310ís TVS counterpart or at least an Xpulse competitor on RTR200 platform. But instead we got that bike. Maybe they have seen a market for that kind of bike but I really doubt it will have too many takers compared to an adv styled one.
You see bullets up in the hills and mountains all the time. And the TVS is equipped nice enough to go where the REs go. But yeah, quite a far cry from expectations, and TVS is already very late to the party.

Also, I though the ethanol RTR200 was only for Lat Am. Didn't know they released it here.

Anyway, back to topic...
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