[b16h22]

Originally Posted by hikozaru

Nah, they will just put the 401 rims on and call it a day. Happy to be wrong

I was talking about the ADV here . Might've been confusing since I referenced the 690 SMC but that was for explaining this style of tubeless spoked rims. SMCR might not get tubeless rims.

[BullettuPaandi]

Originally Posted by b16h22

but they are tubeless aluminium rims from DID. I confirmed this referencing their intl website and some forums. So that is probably how they made the ADV wheels tubeless without cross spokes.

Aren't all tubeless spoked wheels based out of aluminium rims these days? I think the cross-spoked ones are more often than not designed from scratch, and such regular ones are simply existing tubed spoke wheels with added sealant and tape.

As far as I know, to make a regular tube spoked wheels to support tubeless tyres, we only need to apply sealant and tape over all the spots that the spokes pierce through, and add a valve stem to the rim. Not sure if this is what KTM has done here, though; but this would be enough for such design.

Cross spoked ones may look weird, as they don't quite look like the tube spoked ones that we're familiar with. But, they have better transfer of impact and ease of repair.

[sole_rider]

Originally Posted by BullettuPaandi

what KTM has done here,

From the pictures, KTM has a center flange type tubeless spoke wheels.

[BullettuPaandi]

Originally Posted by sole_rider

From the pictures, KTM has a center flange type tubeless spoke wheels.

I don't understand what you're trying to say. Could you elaborate?

The flange as far as I know is the piece of metal in the hub, through which the spokes are weaved through. How does this pertain to what I was talking about?

[VW2010]

We need a tear down like in phones as a new way of review to answer some of these questions I guess.

The bike looks way better than the previous edition which felt more leaning towards versys type set up.

This one looks leaner, taller and like a solid mini variant of their 890 adv.

I am very much tempted but will wait for a proper test ride and enduro release to decide. I was tempted with 800DE but I think this is more than enough if the tests help me feel better than the last edition.

Looking forward for the standard adv or enduro now. Adv X is ok if the cost of the suspension is reasonable as I don't need the traction aids or the cruiser module.

[b16h22]

Originally Posted by BullettuPaandi

Aren't all tubeless spoked wheels based out of aluminium rims these days? I think the cross-spoked ones are more often than not designed from scratch, and such regular ones are simply existing tubed spoke wheels with added sealant and tape.

KTM tubeless wheels are not just sealant and tape AFAIK. They are a bit more complicated than that though the concept is similar. Sealant + tape is not a long-term solution for an OEM and they can wreck the balance of the wheel and cannot adjust the spokes once you put the sealant in.

You can access their 2005 design patent here. And these wheels on the 390 ADV look very similar with a raised center section and bulges where the spoke nipples go.

https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2006053736A3/en

https://patentimages.storage.googlea...06053736A3.pdf

[BullettuPaandi]

Originally Posted by b16h22

KTM tubeless wheels are not just sealant and tape AFAIK. They are a bit more complicated than that though the concept is similar. Sealant + tape is not a long-term solution for an OEM and they can wreck the balance of the wheel and cannot adjust the spokes once you put the sealant in.

You can access their 2005 design patent here. And these wheels on the 390 ADV look very similar with a raised center section and bulges where the spoke nipples go.

With the need to apply sealant and tape throughout the entire wheel, the balance should be comparable. Even tubeless alloys from OEMs could use after-market balancing; I don't think the issue would be too severe here. But it of course adds as one among many other complexities of the tubeless spokes setup.

And, why can't the spokes be adjusted if sealant is added? Whatever the setup is on the inside is irrelevant to us- the users- as it effectively resembles a typical tubed spoke wheels, and we can adjust with a regular spoke wrench, can't we?

The description on the patent appears decidedly vague. The call it a 'sealant device' and only one of many on parenthesis is annotated in the figure- the 12. I'm not excluding sealant and tape from the list of things that'd fit this description, but if 'sealant hindering adjustment' were true, how would it be not the case with whatever is the 'sealant device' here?

I guess, it's ultimately as VW2010 has mentioned- we need a tear down.

Edit- Curious as to how you looked this up; kindly share.

[sole_rider]

Originally Posted by b16h22

KTM tubeless wheels are not just sealant and tape AFAIK. They are a bit more complicated than that though the concept is similar. Sealant + tape is not a long-term solution for an OEM and they can wreck the balance of the wheel and cannot adjust the spokes once you put the sealant in.

You can access their 2005 design patent here. And these wheels on the 390 ADV look very similar with a raised center section and bulges where the spoke nipples go.

https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2006053736A3/en

https://patentimages.storage.googlea...06053736A3.pdf

Attachment 2728613

I was wondering how did KTM got a patent for this? Isn't Bartubeless essentially the same thing?

[b16h22]

Originally Posted by BullettuPaandi

And, why can't the spokes be adjusted if sealant is added? Whatever the setup is on the inside is irrelevant to us- the users- as it effectively resembles a typical tubed spoke wheels, and we can adjust with a regular spoke wrench, can't we?

Edit- Curious as to how you looked this up; kindly share.

The sealant plus tape aftermarket method is usually some kind of liquid sealant that cures to a hardened rubberised form after applying. 3m marine sealant plus tape is common. This method has a lot of failure modes plus the sealant application may not be even and cause vibrations to the wheel due to imbalance. The other common methods are the likes of Outex and similar adhesive tapes. They are also not quite a 100% fail-proof method for an OEM to adopt and there are patents involved probably as well.

Originally Posted by sole_rider

I was wondering how did KTM got a patent for this? Isn't Bartubeless essentially the same thing?

This is quite an old patent from 2004 and I'm not sure when did BARTubeless idea was conceived.

From the looks of it, KTM uses a tape that is grooved on both sides that goes inside a specially designed rim that has an inner cavity to hold it in without adhesives (I can't see any). Also some kind of plugs for each spoke nipple so they don't leak from there. We wouldn't know the exact mechanism unless someone does a tear down in future. Let me see if I can find any videos from past KTM applications.

EDIT: Found a couple

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCAqelhRqDk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1v0saGMbvjg

I don't think patents are that strict on similar ideas. The basic idea of a tubeless system is to seal the spokes but there can be a handful of different designs to achieve this.

[RPRIME95]

Originally Posted by b16h22

We wouldn't know the exact mechanism unless someone does a tear down in future. Let me see if I can find any videos from past KTM applications.

This somewhat address my concerns about cross-spoked wheels. Beautiful bit of engineering by KTM that retains old school looks with the advantage of tubeless. Lets see once test rides start. Maybe I will be swayed

[sole_rider]

Originally Posted by b16h22

This is quite an old patent from 2004 and I'm not sure when did BARTubeless idea was conceived.

From the looks of it, KTM uses a tape that is grooved on both sides that goes inside a specially designed rim that has an inner cavity to hold it in without adhesives (I can't see any). Also some kind of plugs for each spoke nipple so they don't leak from there. We wouldn't know the exact mechanism unless someone does a tear down in future. Let me see if I can find any videos from past KTM applications.

EDIT: Found a couple

https://www.Youtube.com/watch?v=hCAqelhRqDk

https://www.Youtube.com/watch?v=1v0saGMbvjg

I don't think patents are that strict on similar ideas. The basic idea of a tubeless system is to seal the spokes but there can be a handful of different designs to achieve this.

Interesting. Thanks a bunch for the links to the videos.

[PatienceWins]

Though the wheels are not cross spoked, the journalists say that the tires are tubeless. That is good news. Hope there won't be any usual surprises later like "tires are tubeless, but they need tubes with spoked wheels".

The embargo lifts on Feb 25th 10 AM. The package looks very good at an attractive price. Hope this bike changes the fortunes for KTM.

[rakesh_r]

Saw Strell's reel on Instagram, he mentions that there is a "crawl" function which has been introduced, which means you can crawl the bike without giving any accelerator, just like in a Diesel engined car.
Apart from this, looks like the adv 390 is a hit, the H450 definitely has competition. Being an ex LS410 owner and "bikeless" since past 3-4 years, the adv 390 looks like an interesting proposition.

[amyntor]

Originally Posted by rakesh_r

Saw Strell's reel on Instagram, he mentions that there is a "crawl" function which has been introduced, which means you can crawl the bike without giving any accelerator, just like in a Diesel engined car.

Most modern bikes have that feature. I think TVS calls it "Glide Through Traffic" (GTT). The Honda 350 twins have it too. You slot into first gear and release the clutch slowly. The bike will start moving without any throttle input and you can also then go into 2nd, again without twisting your right wrist. My gen 3 Duke 390 can do this as well but only upto 2nd gear. The CB350 I had before could do it in 3rd gear too.

[nasirkaka]

On tubeless setup, the cross spokes aren't the only type of tubeless configuration. For eg, Suzuki V-storm 650 came with a tubeless spoke setup where the spokes were centered and not cross. Other bikes have had similar approaches too.

I guess, KTM would have worked on a similar concept of tubeless spoke configuration. Of course no OE manufacturer would think of sealant/tape or liquid as that does not sound like a robust solution. some Tubeless spoke wheel configuration pics below in the context.