Enfield Bullet:Cam gear backlash and solutions including adjustable cam spindles

motocamp · 9th November 2008, 16:57

You can fit cam adjustable cam spindles on the traditional engine as well.the process is the same.

Valve train noise on the bullet engine can be due to many reasons.

you have to remember that the poppet valves,rocker arms,pushrods,tappets and cams are all part of the valve train.Any of these parts when worn or incorrectly fitted (wrong tolerences etc)cause or add to the noise.

Lets start with the valves.

If the guides or valve stems are slightly or excessively worn this would add to valve train noise.

The rockers bearings tend to get deep grooves over a period of time especially on the traditional engines.

If the pushrods are bent you could never really set the valve clearences very accurately.

the tappet guides if worn can also add to the tapping noise in your engine this also happens when the tappet foot is worn.

finaly coming to the part which really contributes to valve train noise your cams.

The basic problem as stated before is the tolerences in the enfield engine,no two bikes are really the same.

the problem with eccentric or adjustable cam spindles is the fact that if they are installed on an engine which has done a few thousand km just installing them might not help much as the cam pinnion teeth would already be worn.also while installing them the must be perfectly aliigned or 90 degrees to the crankcase.the cam lobes aso should be in reasonable condition and if you have to change the cams replacing the tappets is recomended.

Assuming you install the new spindles,cams and tappets how much backlash can be eliminated depends on the trueness of the timing shaft.

in a nutshell though eliminating valve train noise with adjustable spindles can be achieved it is a more complex procedure.The condition of all moving parts in the valve train must be taken into account.Remember any short cuts will only reduce the effects of the eccentric spindles.

deepclutch · 9th November 2008, 18:41

so ,you mean If I go for a new cam gear set with adjustable spindle ,it cannot fix the backlash problem?
I know and I dont want to eliminate 100% engine noise from my Bull engine.

and valvetrain noises as you said about rockers ,etc I am running on new valves ,valveguides(bronze) and covered 3000kms on it.Only noise I can hear from my Bull is the tak-tak noise only.and the solution I understood is adj.spindle .?
--

kuttapan · 10th November 2008, 00:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by sureshkishore

Dear Kuttappan,

Been using my bull since college days. I never had the tick-tick (cam wheel) noise on it. But, last time I had the cam cover removed to check the oil pump I noticed that the two Cam Wheels weren't OE, instead they had eccentric spindles. Not only that the two other wheels, #1(idler) that drives the #2 timing gear. Both were made of Nylon

. Ever heard about those before? probably dad had them put in long back. because since I got the bike the cam cover was never opened.
Can you throw some light on these. Should I change them back to OE? As of now the gears look in good shape and the bike's performing ok too. Need advice.

Never heard of Nylon gears. I am sure there is some misunderstanding. Since your bike is otherwise running well, just leave things as they are. Sometimes, the patient is not sick, but the doctor tries to fix a perceived illness - not advised.

motocamp · 10th November 2008, 20:37

If you are sure about the condition of the other parts, the adjustable cam spindles will help a lot. but if you are changing the cams also change the tappets as the old ones will wear out the new cam lobes and occasionally the tak tak noise is also from a worn tappet foot.

deepclutch · 12th November 2008, 23:04

I am busy with some commitments in coimbatore.now ,after 25th ,I am thinking of giving the electra to RE brand showroom workshop.
Today ,I took the bike for a ride.everything is OK.but except it felt missing.if I put throttle ,it misses;
I took it to a mechanic and this guy suggested to clean carburetter ,since the irregular beat sound in idle.

I was planning to take my Bull to Coimbatore.but dropped the plan.since someone suggested to not to ride the bike with lean settings for long.

So ,What else apart from below ,that I will have to check with my bike :
1) adjustable cam spindle and new cam gears
2) carburetter tuning

and anybody knows how much for the alloy wheels for Bullet?
Which brand?

deepclutch · 14th November 2008, 17:48

^Now ,cleaned the carburatter for the good!
OK @Sanker ,Kuttappan and others.

Guys ,after consulting with other bull owners and my new mechanic (Babu and Nasser ,muvattupuzha of two wheeler restoration fame),I am going to have a thorough repair of my Bullet.

Here is what the mechanic has asked :
1)CamWheel OEM -2 no.s
2)Centre gear - 1 no.s
3)Side washers -4 no.s
4)Head Gasket -1 no.s
5)Rocker arm packing - 2 no.s
6)Saree Guards(for Electra type) - 1 set
7) Timing case packing - 1 no.s
8)Shock absorber Oil Seal - 2 no.s
9)Oil Filter - 1 no.
10) Adjustable Cam Spindle - 1 set (already bought).
11) Horizontal Type de-compression lever

Guys ,
I am going to re-tune my Bullet to get the maximum from it.
Going to change the noisy cam gear for Adjustable cam spindle and to have the Oil Pump work better.for that the mech is going to do something with the rocker arm by etching a path for better oil flow.

Also ,Going for new Saree guards(nevertheless!) of the old model.I will be getting the parts from Lachho Automobiles ,Gandhipuram ,Coimbatore.Suggest ME some other better shops if any.I know AZhagendran in crosscut though.

Apart from the obvious works ,I am thinking of Buffing the Aluminium parts too.Wish me good luck! I am busy with exams.after that Will start this.

EDIT: What is This cam spindle Puller ,which the mechanic is saying he need to make ?Is it necessary to pull the cam spindles off?
--
I am amazed to see the ability of the mechanic.He got transplanted a CI engine(cylinder+head set) to a AVL machismo after the owner insisted.some works for that was done at D`silva's Lathe works ,Coimbatore.The Mechanic(Babu/Nasser) implanted the CI engine and Now the Machismo is awesome!Pure Thump.Costed for the owner around Rs8000/-.
The machismo owner is running on a BS29 pulsar carburater for mileage.if He change that to VM28 ,that machismo sure gonna rock!
Also ,the mech is on the restoration of a 1966 Bullet.Some parts are awaiting from Lathe.

agbenny · 14th November 2008, 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by deepclutch

^Now ,cleaned the carburatter for the good!
OK @Sanker ,Kuttappan and others.

Guys ,after consulting with other bull owners and my new mechanic (Babu and Nasser ,muvattupuzha of two wheeler restoration fame),I am going to have a thorough repair of my Bullet.

Guys ,
I am going to re-tune my Bullet to get the maximum from it.
Going to change the noisy cam gear for Adjustable cam spindle and to have the Oil Pump work better.for that the mech is going to do something with the rocker arm by etching a path for better oil flow.

.

I wish you all the best, Post us the pictures and feedback after the modifcations are done.

Thank you.

Sankar · 14th November 2008, 18:14

My replies are inline and starts with >>>

Quote:

Originally Posted by deepclutch

Here is what the mechanic has asked :
1)CamWheel OEM -2 no.s
2)Centre gear - 1 no.s
3)Side washers -4 no.s
4)Head Gasket -1 no.s

>>>Buy new black type head gasket that comes as OE on new STD350s. Ask at RE dealer.

5)Rocker arm packing - 2 no.s
>>> Again OE stuff

6)Saree Guards(for Electra type) - 1 set
7) Timing case packing - 1 no.s
>>> OE Suff

8)Shock absorber Oil Seal - 2 no.s
9)Oil Filter - 1 no.
10) Adjustable Cam Spindle - 1 set (already bought).
11) Horizontal Type de-compression lever

Guys ,
I am going to re-tune my Bullet to get the maximum from it.
Going to change the noisy cam gear for Adjustable cam spindle and to have the Oil Pump work better.for that the mech is going to do something with the rocker arm by etching a path for better oil flow.

>>> Also buy new OE oil pumps along with new pump spindle and worm nut.

EDIT: What is This cam spindle Puller ,which the mechanic is saying he need to make ?Is it necessary to pull the cam spindles off?

>>> It is necessary to take the cam spindles out without splitting the crankcase.
--
I am amazed to see the ability of the mechanic.He got transplanted a CI engine(cylinder+head set) to a AVL machismo after the owner insisted.some works for that was done at D`silva's Lathe works ,Coimbatore.The Mechanic(Babu/Nasser) implanted the CI engine and Now the Machismo is awesome!Pure Thump.Costed for the owner around Rs8000/-.

>>>I saw a Thunderbird with Cast iron block and head transplanted on to it's AVL bottom end. Sick

The machismo owner is running on a BS29 pulsar carburater for mileage.if He change that to VM28 ,that machismo sure gonna rock!

>>> I after having gone through a carb de mything wrt to CV and slide by Joel I'm apprehensive about the rocking part

deepclutch · 14th November 2008, 18:49

@agbenny:For sure ,I will explain.if possible ,will take pictures too.(my canon powershot A590IS is resting somewhere in my house).and benny ,which shop for two wheeler spares?
Azhagendran,aditya or Laccho ? Is there any new shop?

--
I got a suggestion to go for "chrome platable" Alloy wheel for bullets which is just now available in coimbatore.cost Rs4800 per piece.anyone ?

thanks ,shankar for the feedback.
Please explain the need for :

Quote:

Originally Posted by sankar

Also buy new OE oil pumps along with new pump spindle and worm nut.

Which Oilpump?and how much for the cost part?I would like to ride my Bull at 70-80kmph constantly and I am doubtful(or fear?) whether the oil pump will fail leading to engine seizure.:( Can I put a 535 lightning's Oil pump on my Electra 4S?
--
Then ,Here some "90" oil is mixed with 20W50 oil for Bullets.the ratio of 20w50 oil to 90 oil is 2 : 1 .I will ask more tomorrow.if anybody can guess ,then please do it

And Shankar - I can be sure that the Work done of the engine transplantation of CI engine to Bullet Machismo is awesome.
I am Hoping ,a guy Jinesh who is a bike collector and restoration freak I talked today(collects jawa,lambretta,zzdi etc) ,will join this forum soon.He can explain more better.

Sankar · 14th November 2008, 19:05

Hi, my replies are in line..

Quote:

Originally Posted by deepclutch

I got a suggestion to go for "chrome platable" Alloy wheel for bullets which is just now available in coimbatore.cost Rs4800 per piece.anyone ?

>>> I have seen lot of Indian made rado alloy wheels on Bullets and i didn't like any of it. But that's just a personal opinion.

thanks ,shankar for the feedback.
Please explain the need for :

Which Oilpump?and how much for the cost part?I would like to ride my Bull at 70-80kmph constantly and I am doubtful(or fear?) whether the oil pump will fail leading to engine seizure.:( Can I put a 535 lightning's Oil pump on my Electra 4S?
--
>>> The newer oil pumps, post 2003, are of higher capacity you can buy those.

Then ,Here some "90" oil is mixed with 20W50 oil for Bullets.the ratio of 20w50 oil to 90 oil is 2 : 1 .I will ask more tomorrow.if anybody can guess ,then please do it

>>> Please don't do it. 90W gear oil is infact only as viscous as a 40W engine oil. SAE rating of gear oils and engine oils are NOT directly comparable. And the additives in the gear oils are for a different purpose and not suitable to neutralise and remove by products of combustion inside the engine. Instead use a good grade 20W50 oil in your engine.

And Shankar - I can be sure that the Work done of the engine transplantation of CI engine to Bullet Machismo is awesome.

>>> I didn't comment about the work done to convert AVL to CI. I couldn't understand the reason for doing so. He could've transplanted the entire engine with a CI unit and am sure there would be takers for the AVL mill.

deepclutch · 14th November 2008, 19:08

^Thanks. you said oil pumps for models above 2003 is of high output.but my RE Electra 4S is model 2005 ?

Really I need to replace it?

Sankar · 14th November 2008, 19:22

^ Then you don't have to. I'm sure the mech would check the condition of the pumps and the spindle.

kuttapan · 15th November 2008, 00:02

Are you sure you need alloy wheels? I do not have first hand experience, but I have never heard a good word about them on Bullets.

I think they will be heavier than normal wheels, adding to unsprung weight and affect handling adversely. On the flip side, your Bullet will look good and get looks of adulation.

deepclutch · 15th November 2008, 01:14

^There is supposed to be a new model available in Coimbatore for Enfield's as per the local bull owner guys.Unlike The blade like three lined alloy wheels ,this "new" one is supposedly got many more "line" like things inside(I am very weak in English) the rim.and also can be chrome plated.I am aware of the normal alloy wheels which sucks.

Still not sure about this choice though.will see First hand what this stuff they are bragging about and will finalize

.

@Shanker: I hope so.Oil Pump will be of good condition.
--
Today ,I came just after the 2nd show(if you care - "vaaranam aayiram" tamil movie) at 12.45AM.and in deserted Highway road ,just tried my bull.It after de-tuned(was on lean settings earlier) today and carburater cleaned , is very easy to attain 90kmph speed plus.But unlike my earlier bikes ,I am not sure about Bullet's speeding capability and also ,the fear of "fried valves" !.
--
Any Tip whether some type of high tolerance valves for 350cc bullet is available?where can I get? I mean ,as in "nitraded" valves

deepclutch · 15th November 2008, 02:26

Sorry for the frequent posts. BUT:
I went through this thread again .and @motocamp suggested that I should go for new tappets also while changing the cam gear setup.Actually by tappets ,he meant "push rods" ??
--
Now ,I re-read Nandan's article here. I am seriously thinking about his running-in part.should I be careful at speeds above 60?
The Bullet: Mystries & Myths - Running-in a new Bullet
--
What about Gearbox?Do you all fill up it with grease?(or Oil?) .

9th November 2008, 16:57	#16
motocamp BHPian Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: pune Posts: 452 Thanked: 102 Times	You can fit cam adjustable cam spindles on the traditional engine as well.the process is the same. Valve train noise on the bullet engine can be due to many reasons. you have to remember that the poppet valves,rocker arms,pushrods,tappets and cams are all part of the valve train.Any of these parts when worn or incorrectly fitted (wrong tolerences etc)cause or add to the noise. Lets start with the valves. If the guides or valve stems are slightly or excessively worn this would add to valve train noise. The rockers bearings tend to get deep grooves over a period of time especially on the traditional engines. If the pushrods are bent you could never really set the valve clearences very accurately. the tappet guides if worn can also add to the tapping noise in your engine this also happens when the tappet foot is worn. finaly coming to the part which really contributes to valve train noise your cams. The basic problem as stated before is the tolerences in the enfield engine,no two bikes are really the same. the problem with eccentric or adjustable cam spindles is the fact that if they are installed on an engine which has done a few thousand km just installing them might not help much as the cam pinnion teeth would already be worn.also while installing them the must be perfectly aliigned or 90 degrees to the crankcase.the cam lobes aso should be in reasonable condition and if you have to change the cams replacing the tappets is recomended. Assuming you install the new spindles,cams and tappets how much backlash can be eliminated depends on the trueness of the timing shaft. in a nutshell though eliminating valve train noise with adjustable spindles can be achieved it is a more complex procedure.The condition of all moving parts in the valve train must be taken into account.Remember any short cuts will only reduce the effects of the eccentric spindles.
	() Thanks

9th November 2008, 18:41	#17
deepclutch Senior - BHPian Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Muvattupuzha Posts: 1,165 Thanked: 162 Times	so ,you mean If I go for a new cam gear set with adjustable spindle ,it cannot fix the backlash problem? I know and I dont want to eliminate 100% engine noise from my Bull engine. and valvetrain noises as you said about rockers ,etc I am running on new valves ,valveguides(bronze) and covered 3000kms on it.Only noise I can hear from my Bull is the tak-tak noise only.and the solution I understood is adj.spindle .? --
	() Thanks

10th November 2008, 20:37	#19
motocamp BHPian Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: pune Posts: 452 Thanked: 102 Times	If you are sure about the condition of the other parts, the adjustable cam spindles will help a lot. but if you are changing the cams also change the tappets as the old ones will wear out the new cam lobes and occasionally the tak tak noise is also from a worn tappet foot.
	() Thanks

12th November 2008, 23:04	#20
deepclutch Senior - BHPian Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Muvattupuzha Posts: 1,165 Thanked: 162 Times	I am busy with some commitments in coimbatore.now ,after 25th ,I am thinking of giving the electra to RE brand showroom workshop. Today ,I took the bike for a ride.everything is OK.but except it felt missing.if I put throttle ,it misses; I took it to a mechanic and this guy suggested to clean carburetter ,since the irregular beat sound in idle. I was planning to take my Bull to Coimbatore.but dropped the plan.since someone suggested to not to ride the bike with lean settings for long. So ,What else apart from below ,that I will have to check with my bike : 1) adjustable cam spindle and new cam gears 2) carburetter tuning and anybody knows how much for the alloy wheels for Bullet? Which brand?
	() Thanks

14th November 2008, 17:48	#21
deepclutch Senior - BHPian Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Muvattupuzha Posts: 1,165 Thanked: 162 Times	My Modifications for Bullet :- ^Now ,cleaned the carburatter for the good! OK @Sanker ,Kuttappan and others. Guys ,after consulting with other bull owners and my new mechanic (Babu and Nasser ,muvattupuzha of two wheeler restoration fame),I am going to have a thorough repair of my Bullet. Here is what the mechanic has asked : 1)CamWheel OEM -2 no.s 2)Centre gear - 1 no.s 3)Side washers -4 no.s 4)Head Gasket -1 no.s 5)Rocker arm packing - 2 no.s 6)Saree Guards(for Electra type) - 1 set 7) Timing case packing - 1 no.s 8)Shock absorber Oil Seal - 2 no.s 9)Oil Filter - 1 no. 10) Adjustable Cam Spindle - 1 set (already bought). 11) Horizontal Type de-compression lever Guys , I am going to re-tune my Bullet to get the maximum from it. Going to change the noisy cam gear for Adjustable cam spindle and to have the Oil Pump work better.for that the mech is going to do something with the rocker arm by etching a path for better oil flow. Also ,Going for new Saree guards(nevertheless!) of the old model.I will be getting the parts from Lachho Automobiles ,Gandhipuram ,Coimbatore.Suggest ME some other better shops if any.I know AZhagendran in crosscut though. Apart from the obvious works ,I am thinking of Buffing the Aluminium parts too.Wish me good luck! I am busy with exams.after that Will start this. EDIT: What is This cam spindle Puller ,which the mechanic is saying he need to make ?Is it necessary to pull the cam spindles off? -- I am amazed to see the ability of the mechanic.He got transplanted a CI engine(cylinder+head set) to a AVL machismo after the owner insisted.some works for that was done at D`silva's Lathe works ,Coimbatore.The Mechanic(Babu/Nasser) implanted the CI engine and Now the Machismo is awesome!Pure Thump.Costed for the owner around Rs8000/-. The machismo owner is running on a BS29 pulsar carburater for mileage.if He change that to VM28 ,that machismo sure gonna rock! Also ,the mech is on the restoration of a 1966 Bullet.Some parts are awaiting from Lathe. Last edited by deepclutch : 14th November 2008 at 17:53.
	() Thanks

14th November 2008, 19:08	#26
deepclutch Senior - BHPian Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Muvattupuzha Posts: 1,165 Thanked: 162 Times	^Thanks. you said oil pumps for models above 2003 is of high output.but my RE Electra 4S is model 2005 ? Really I need to replace it?
	() Thanks

14th November 2008, 19:22	#27
Sankar Senior - BHPian Join Date: May 2005 Location: Location Posts: 5,766 Thanked: 9,053 Times	^ Then you don't have to. I'm sure the mech would check the condition of the pumps and the spindle.
	() Thanks

15th November 2008, 00:02	#28
kuttapan Senior - BHPian Join Date: May 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 1,155 Thanked: 22 Times View My Garage	Are you sure you need alloy wheels? I do not have first hand experience, but I have never heard a good word about them on Bullets. I think they will be heavier than normal wheels, adding to unsprung weight and affect handling adversely. On the flip side, your Bullet will look good and get looks of adulation.
	() Thanks

15th November 2008, 01:14	#29
deepclutch Senior - BHPian Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Muvattupuzha Posts: 1,165 Thanked: 162 Times	^There is supposed to be a new model available in Coimbatore for Enfield's as per the local bull owner guys.Unlike The blade like three lined alloy wheels ,this "new" one is supposedly got many more "line" like things inside(I am very weak in English) the rim.and also can be chrome plated.I am aware of the normal alloy wheels which sucks. Still not sure about this choice though.will see First hand what this stuff they are bragging about and will finalize . @Shanker: I hope so.Oil Pump will be of good condition. -- Today ,I came just after the 2nd show(if you care - "vaaranam aayiram" tamil movie) at 12.45AM.and in deserted Highway road ,just tried my bull.It after de-tuned(was on lean settings earlier) today and carburater cleaned , is very easy to attain 90kmph speed plus.But unlike my earlier bikes ,I am not sure about Bullet's speeding capability and also ,the fear of "fried valves" !. -- Any Tip whether some type of high tolerance valves for 350cc bullet is available?where can I get? I mean ,as in "nitraded" valves Last edited by deepclutch : 15th November 2008 at 01:15.
	() Thanks

15th November 2008, 02:26	#30
deepclutch Senior - BHPian Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Muvattupuzha Posts: 1,165 Thanked: 162 Times	Sorry for the frequent posts. BUT: I went through this thread again .and @motocamp suggested that I should go for new tappets also while changing the cam gear setup.Actually by tappets ,he meant "push rods" ?? -- Now ,I re-read Nandan's article here. I am seriously thinking about his running-in part.should I be careful at speeds above 60? The Bullet: Mystries & Myths - Running-in a new Bullet -- What about Gearbox?Do you all fill up it with grease?(or Oil?) . Last edited by deepclutch : 15th November 2008 at 02:44.
	() Thanks