[desideep]

hahaha Hey Sheel and did you notice that we all have been replying like any thing but SID himself is lost for days now.

[Darth Sid]

Originally Posted by desideep

hahaha Hey Sheel and did you notice that we all have been replying like any thing but SID himself is lost for days now.

Man, I feel really bad now. I owe you all my sincerest apologies for disappearing. (The timing of your post was almost precise!) I didn't have access to a computer and only 2 days ago did I buy a cell phone in which I can access team-bhp. Still, my absence was inappropriate.

You guys have provided provided some very useful inputs but I think I need to trouble you for a couple more...

I had decided to book to a yellow Karizma R until I read some posts here and spoke to a bunch of guys recently who do stunts on their bikes (READ - push their bikes to the breaking point) often. Well, now it's between the Pulsar 220 and the Karizma R! Now, I face the same confusion my elder brother was facing while trying to decide between all the hatchbacks on offer. He booked the Beat.

Its quite obvious that the rider's requirements dictate the purchase. It seems I didn't word them clearly. Well, I require a good, low maintenance bike with decent economy (30 kmpl or above), good handling and enough performance to keep me entertained. I ride my Bullet to office 19 km each way, everyday and keep the throttle opened fully for a significant portion of the journey. I blip the throttle often to get ahead of vehicles on main roads like the Ring Road (which forms the main part of my journey) and need performance. In short, I want performance, good handling, endurance/reliability and ability to sustain 100 kmph for extended duration.

Now as far as I've heard, in the aspects below, the bike mentioned scores better:

Performance - P220
Fuel Economy - P220
Handling - Karizma ??
Ride Quality and Comfort - Karizma
Build Quality (Drivetrain Refinement) - Karizma
Fit and Finish - Karizma
Longevity - Karizma
Braking - P220
Looks - P220 ???
Value For Money - P220 ???

How bad is Pulsar's quality? (YC Baleno, a friend of mine used the same comment for Bajaj quality. His name is Karan.) Can I push it hard regularly without it so much as coughing or developing chronic bronchitis?

Will test ride the P220 tomorrow. I think that should help me decide but I need your inputs.

[Darth Sid]

Originally Posted by musicmanaman

TD the new Discover 150 as well, I have heard it a pocket rocket, cheap as well about 52k OTR here in Kolkata. When you look at the top speed of all these bikes the Discover is there with almost all of them, apart from the ZMA.

Well, I'm not considering any 150cc bike now, though the R15 would've been my choice had it not exceeded my budget.

Originally Posted by YC.BALENO.CHD

ZMA-R


PROS-

1) Excellent gearing and good low end grunt makes it quite quick. Its just a tad slower to 80kmph as compared to the 220 even though the power difference is around 25%.


5) Although very long in the tooth now, still manages to look good. Has aged very gracefully.

CONS


1) Not as fast as the 220. Although its much faster than the FZ.

2) Does not have the street presence it used to have a few years ago.

3) Build quality has gone down. Mismatched paint texture on panels is not an uncommon thing. Pre-R ZMAs boasted muh better built.


6) Spares are VERY EXPENSIVE. Consider this-- ZMA's disc brake pads cost above 1500 bucks while 220's cost around 300 bucks!! Similar with graib-rails and other body panels. However, many believe that its the price to pay for Honda reliability and am in no mood to argue with them.



However, a K&N along with bigger jets does wonders for the ZMA. Difference in performance is very clear with such a small mod.




But, your requirements may or may not be same as mine or others, so its best to choose as per your priorities. Either way, you can't go too wrong with these bikes.

BUT (and a very big but at that) as a package, nothing beats the 220 at the moment.
Its reliability is a suspect but with proper maintenance I guess it won't really be as troublesome as many believe it to be.
It has its flaws but the fact that its the most powerful machine in this category simply can't be ignored. Dump the main-stand and that makes it a good handler too, though its quite front heavy.

Still its loaded and at that price its almost a bargain. Do consider this option once. And those who say its dated there are still older biker around.

Is the P220 really that fast or is the Karizma R really that slow in comparison?

Has the Karizma's quality really gone down that much? Of course, you have to cut corners to reduce price but that much?

Does the P220 handle bad?

Looks are ok. Indeed the Karizma has aged gracefully but at the same time, street presence has gone down. Still more than the P220's (which doesn't look bad, either.)

Won't be adding free-flow mods and bigger jets in the new bike within warranty period but the idea is definitely on my mind.

Originally Posted by YC.BALENO.CHD

As for the seat, though it sounds ridiculous but am not kidding that I know of a fellow who bought Hunk over the FZ because her girlfriend found FZ's seat small and uncomfy.

My Bullet doesn't have a pillion seat so it doesn't matter in the new bike, either.

[devarshi84]

RTR in APache stands for Racing Throttle Response. It's a 180cc bike with most gizmoz you get in Pulsar 220 and Karizma inluding the rear disc brake. Why I suggesting this bike is because it is designed with street performance in mind. power is equal to a Karizma with lower torque and lower weight. I would suggest that you test drive one. I have had lots of fun on my friends Apache RTR 160 which he bought on my recommendation.

I would second the Pulsar 220 (albeit in street fighter look minus the projector headlamps though I personally like the projector lamp look). I had a genI 180 which lasted me well hence I vouch for its quality. I would take into consideration that things have changed for better on the pulsar over the years and hence the 220 should do you good. But since others complain of lower quality I would think that Bajaj has let loose the cord on quality for mass production.

Karizma isnt a bike you use for extracting performance daily.

[Grafin]

Originally Posted by devarshi84

RTR in APache stands for Racing Throttle Response. It's a 180cc bike with most gizmoz you get in Pulsar 220 and Karizma inluding the rear disc brake. Why I suggesting this bike is because it is designed with street performance in mind. power is equal to a Karizma with lower torque and lower weight. I would suggest that you test drive one. I have had lots of fun on my friends Apache RTR 160 which he bought on my recommendation.

If it werent for the vibrations at high speed, the choice would have been a no brainer. Its immense fun indeed and handles much better than the P200 at least.
But the bikes in the series are pretty much indistinguishable from each other apart from the rear disc brakes in the EFi and 180.

The Zma can be trashed on a daily basis within the city or outside and i can vouch for that being a previous owner.
For long trips, there is still no better option this side of an Enfield Bullet.

[Sheel]

Originally Posted by Darth Sid

Performance - P220
1Fuel Economy - P220
2Handling - Karizma ??
3Ride Quality and Comfort - Karizma
4Build Quality (Drivetrain Refinement) - Karizma
5Fit and Finish - Karizma
6Longevity - Karizma
7Braking - P220
8Looks - P220 ???
9Value For Money - P220 ???

i have made pointers so that it is easy to , well point out

you have got all the points spot on, few require a wee bit more coverage,

point 4. Build quality-- The Karizma's engine built is superior to P-220 and it won't vibe/rattle like a P-220, but IMO P-220 has better plastics(my head lamp lugs/mid panels broke on its own in the Karizma)

point 8 looks--to each his own

It all boils down to what kind of rider you are, if you love touring, you shall appreciate the long stroke of Karizma's motor, but if you are into everyday commuting/short tours and generally want to have a blast, i would recommend a P-220/RTR 180*
Go for the faired P-220, as it has the best stock illumination and P-220S version appears too common with P-220s/P-200/P-180 sporting the same looks

*RTR-180 begins to lose ground to P-220/R15 post 100 and shall lose out to Karizma as well in top-end rush

[CARDEEP]

Originally Posted by Darth Sid

Performance - P220
Fuel Economy - P220
Handling - Karizma ??
Ride Quality and Comfort - Karizma
Build Quality (Drivetrain Refinement) - Karizma
Fit and Finish - Karizma
Longevity - Karizma
Braking - P220
Looks - P220 ???
Value For Money - P220 ???

Darth Sid

I second where Sheel has pointed out that the plastic quality of Bajaj is better. My own personal experience is same as Sheel's (only the bikes were/are different, Splendor & P150). But, my cousin has same experience with his ZMA. In fact his ZMA has started to rattle courtesy few falls (which were never nasty as he would always turn up with few scratches only... thank god). My P150 is yet to develop a single crack, despite few falls (courtesy stray dogs, drunk drivers, Metro construction work & bad rains) & not a single part (except the indicators & rear view mirrors) is changed.

I agree that the drivetrain refinement of ZMA may be better over the P220, but, the difference not be as much as any Bajaj basher would have imagined few years ago. There are vibrations, but, much subdued in my 2006 P150 (like the constant zzzzz...., instead of grrrr...), & those never me feel uneasy or anything. Plus, my engine is yet to rattle or fall off after 56 kms of ripping (I do Shalimar Bagh to Noida in under 45 mins in office hours).

We also found the fit & finish of the P150 better & long lasting over time, though the same looks better initially. I rip it badly, when driven, but, am also take proper care of the bike like I would do for pet.

My only is the wiring joints that can pose a problem once in a while & the gearshift that is notchy in Bajaj. My headlight would go off automatically over rough patches, till I visited the service centre, which replaced the connectors & no problems since then.

Regarding the ride comfort part, I found the sporty seating of P150 & have done over 125 kms one way, without getting much tired.

I would just wish you best of luck for any decision you make. But, consider P220 (flared one) as well.

[abhinav.s]

Since you are riding 38 kms a day and most of it is in the highway, P220 will be a better bet than the ZMA. I have owned one for 6 months and trust me that bike is really fast in open stretches and you will reach 3 digit speeds very soon. I have done two 500kms round trip and many 100kms short trips and always have been in the 90-100kmph region for a significant amount of time. The bike held up very well. The riding position is not very aggressive and well suited for touring.

The main reason why i sold it off was that it was not to my liking when riding in the city. I had the fairing version and the fairing was a pain in tight parking spots. Though i have to agree it has the best stock head lamps on 2 wheels till date.

Test ride the 220 and you will surely like it. Like Devarshi has mentioned, better to go for the one without fairing if you have to deal with a lot of tight parking spots every day. This is from a practicality point only. Else the fairing version provides you with the best illumination for night rides.

[Darth Sid]

Originally Posted by devarshi84

...Why I suggesting this bike is because it is designed with street performance in mind. power is equal to a Karizma with lower torque and lower weight...

But since others complain of lower quality I would think that Bajaj has let loose the cord on quality for mass production.

Karizma isnt a bike you use for extracting performance daily.

The 17 ps TVS managed to squeeze out of the RTR 180 seems impressive but one can't help but consider the 40 cc difference in displacement. I'll take your word on the handling front. Many people seem to vouch for it. But, performance is at the top of my list now.

The others who complain about Bajaj quality are Bajaj bike owners, right?

Now, how is the Karizma not a bike to extract performance out of daily?

Originally Posted by Grafin

The Zma can be trashed on a daily basis within the city or outside and i can vouch for that being a previous owner.
For long trips, there is still no better option this side of an Enfield Bullet.

Well, you clearly support the superior quality of the Karizma. Cannot overlook that.

Originally Posted by Sheel

point 4. Build quality-- The Karizma's engine built is superior to P-220 and it won't vibe/rattle like a P-220, but IMO P-220 has better plastics(my head lamp lugs/mid panels broke on its own in the Karizma)

point 8 looks--to each his own

It all boils down to what kind of rider you are, if you love touring, you shall appreciate the long stroke of Karizma's motor, but if you are into everyday commuting/short tours and generally want to have a blast, i would recommend a P-220/RTR 180*
Go for the faired P-220, as it has the best stock illumination and P-220S version appears too common with P-220s/P-200/P-180 sporting the same looks

*RTR-180 begins to lose ground to P-220/R15 post 100 and shall lose out to Karizma as well in top-end rush

Vibes are ok but rattle?? The P220 motor rattles??? Please be more specific.
And, does the P220 really have superior plastics? The fairing seems a bit flimsy around the edges compared to the Karizma's but still alright.

Looks - The Karizma used to look good in its day but now it looks dated. The P220's looks are sharper and sleeker. However, the Karizma seems to have more personality while the P220 is not easily distinguishable from other Pulsars. They're both at par. Of course, it's only my opinion. In the end, like you said, to each one his own.

Top-end is as important to me as midrange. RTR180 not in picture.

[Grafin]

Originally Posted by Darth Sid

Well, you clearly support the superior quality of the Karizma. Cannot overlook that.

I would vouch just for the engine. The plastic quality is not as good as the P220 or the new Yammies (Yam>P220>Zma).

[Sheel]

Originally Posted by Darth Sid

Vibes are ok but rattle?? The P220 motor rattles??? Please be more specific.

If the bajaj guys forget to look into mounting points, you may come across this problem( but it is something which can be rectified in no time if the mech know what he is doing,)
engine rattle was a thing of concern for older Karizma's due to cam-tensioner

And, does the P220 really have superior plastics? The fairing seems a bit flimsy around the edges compared to the Karizma's but still alright.

Both the fairings shall rattle, i have been on/off on a P-220, but it does have some vibes/rattle creeping in and Karizma... my Karizma began to rattle in just 600-700 kms, I am not sure which shall rattle/vibe more, but i am sure that plastics of Pulsar is way better than what is used in Karizma as whatever things broke in my karizma weren't caused because of any spills, just everyday normal riding which i anyways do on my current motorcycle/s
R15/Fazer, absolutely zilch rattles/vibes anywhere.

[Darth Sid]

Originally Posted by CARDEEP

I agree that the drivetrain refinement of ZMA may be better over the P220, but, the difference not be as much as any Bajaj basher would have imagined few years ago. There are vibrations, but, much subdued in my 2006 P150 (like the constant zzzzz...., instead of grrrr...), & those never me feel uneasy or anything. Plus, my engine is yet to rattle or fall off after 56 kms of ripping (I do Shalimar Bagh to Noida in under 45 mins in office hours).

We also found the fit & finish of the P150 better & long lasting over time, though the same looks better initially. I rip it badly, when driven, but, am also take proper care of the bike like I would do for pet.

My only is the wiring joints that can pose a problem once in a while & the gearshift that is notchy in Bajaj. My headlight would go off automatically over rough patches, till I visited the service centre, which replaced the connectors & no problems since then.

Regarding the ride comfort part, I found the sporty seating of P150 & have done over 125 kms one way, without getting much tired.

I would just wish you best of luck for any decision you make. But, consider P220 (flared one) as well.

Care would include what? Anything besides timely servicing?

Notchy feel shouldn't be a problem. I'll know when I test ride the P220 in about an hour from now. But, does it have false neutral or mis-shifts like the Bullet?

The P220's seating didn't seem sportier than the Karizma's when I sat on it in the showroom. It seemed to be almost as upright. I'm not that tall, just a centimetre short of 5'10".

Shalimar Bagh to Noida in 45 minutes in rush hour traffic is quite fast. I do Noida to RK Puram in minimum 25 minutes regardless of traffic but usually more when trucks start plying.

Thank you.

Originally Posted by abhinav.s

Since you are riding 38 kms a day and most of it is in the highway, P220 will be a better bet than the ZMA. I have owned one for 6 months and trust me that bike is really fast in open stretches and you will reach 3 digit speeds very soon. I have done two 500kms round trip and many 100kms short trips and always have been in the 90-100kmph region for a significant amount of time. The bike held up very well. The riding position is not very aggressive and well suited for touring.

...it was not to my liking when riding in the city. I had the fairing version and the fairing was a pain in tight parking spots...

Like Devarshi has mentioned, better to go for the one without fairing if you have to deal with a lot of tight parking spots every day. This is from a practicality point only. Else the fairing version provides you with the best illumination for night rides.

So, the P220 is good for short and long trips in your experience? I would be doing the kind of riding you have done once a month.

I'm a bit apprehensive about the P220's large turning radius. But, then my Bullet has an exceptionally small turning circle diameter which is nearly 2 feet less than your average P150!

Lighting is important. You can only go as fast as the eye can see.

[Darth Sid]

Originally Posted by Grafin

I would vouch just for the engine. The plastic quality is not as good as the P220 or the new Yammies (Yam>P220>Zma).

The engine is most important. But, let's see what the P220 test ride tells me.

Originally Posted by Sheel

If the bajaj guys forget to look into mounting points, you may come across this problem( but it is something which can be rectified in no time if the mech know what he is doing,)
engine rattle was a thing of concern for older Karizma's due to cam-tensioner


Both the fairings shall rattle, i have been on/off on a P-220, but it does have some vibes/rattle creeping in and Karizma... my Karizma began to rattle in just 600-700 kms, I am not sure which shall rattle/vibe more, but i am sure that plastics of Pulsar is way better than what is used in Karizma as whatever things broke in my karizma weren't caused because of any spills, just everyday normal riding which i anyways do on my current motorcycle/s
R15/Fazer, absolutely zilch rattles/vibes anywhere.

You mean mounting points of the entire drivetrain casing? Those rattles are external. Any rattles inside? Do these bikes using timing chains or belts? What was wrong with the older Karizma's cam tensioner? You're talking about the timing chain tensioner, right?

I think I've heard from too many people now about body panels falling off the Karizma.



Ok guys, gotta sign out and go for the test ride now. Will be back in the evening with feedback.

[Sheel]

Originally Posted by Darth Sid

You mean mounting points of the entire drivetrain casing? Those rattles are external. Any rattles inside? Do these bikes using timing chains or belts? What was wrong with the older Karizma's cam tensioner? You're talking about the timing chain tensioner, right?

I am talking about external noises wrt to P-220,
Karizma's engine shall be more refined than a P-220, but you got to chose between speed and cruise
motorcycles do come equipped with timing chain i believe(correct me if i am wrong)

Hope you find your Hero today

[CARDEEP]

Originally Posted by Darth Sid

Care would include what? Anything besides timely servicing?

Notchy feel shouldn't be a problem. I'll know when I test ride the P220 in about an hour from now. But, does it have false neutral or mis-shifts like the Bullet?

The P220's seating didn't seem sportier than the Karizma's when I sat on it in the showroom. It seemed to be almost as upright. I'm not that tall, just a centimetre short of 5'10".

Shalimar Bagh to Noida in 45 minutes in rush hour traffic is quite fast. I do Noida to RK Puram in minimum 25 minutes regardless of traffic but usually more when trucks start plying.

Thank you.

Care like pet - Apart from normal service 4000-5000 kms, it is like listening to the strange sounds, checking the lighting, indicators, tyre wobble, etc. I may stretch my service intervals to 5000 kms, but, rush to service centre for these small issues. There hasn't been much problem except a loose chain & gear shaft change & few bulbs change in my case (please also note that in my previous post I had mentioned that I have crossed 56 kms, which is actually 56k kms).

P220 seating may not be sportier because of the clip-on handle bars, which I also feel are higher than those on my bike. Thus it would be better for you, as you won't have to bend your back more, after giving up the RE.

BTW, I am, rather my brother is, switching over to RE (TB or Electra). Strange coincident...