[Sutripta]

We are about to see the launch of two (relatively) affordable bikes with ABS: - the Honda 250, and the Apache variant.

Going through the (very scanty) literature available, it seems that there is a major difference in the philosophy behind the two implementations. We would like to understand the thought process behind these decisions.

If we take as the starting point the ABS implementation in cars, maybe we can start off by discussing whether the bike ABS is just a 2 channel car system, or something different. And why?

Inputs from all TBhpians eagerly awaited.

Regards
Sutripta

[sagarpadaki]

ABS in case of bikes is purely a mechanical unit unlike the cars which have seperate ecu,wheel sensors etc.i dont know the exact internal working of the unit.my friend who has a pulsar installed it as a add on.its installed on the caliper assembly.
Will try and source the detailed info on it soon.

[Sutripta]

The Saferide system is misrepresented as ABS. Though useful on a bike with grabby front brakes and a novice rider.

Regards
Sutripta

[Rehaan]

Originally Posted by Sutripta

If we take as the starting point the ABS implementation in cars, maybe we can start off by discussing whether the bike ABS is just a 2 channel car system, or something different. And why?

I'd imagine (or i should say guess) that for one, the bike ABS system is a lot less aggressive with the modulation of the pressure on the brakes, as unlike 4-wheelers, the 2-wheelers just don't have the inherent stability to handle a wheel coming close to locking up several times a second. Views?

Its almost as if the bike ABS system is about maximizing brake force, while preventing the wheel from ever locking up :

YouTube - ABS vs. No ABS

Originally Posted by Sutripta

The Saferide system is misrepresented as ABS....

How does this mechanical system work?
Does it pulse or does it just limit fluid pressure somehow?

cya
R

[SS-Traveller]

A topic that I too need to learn a lot on. Never been a 2-wheeler person.
Few questions:

1. What does Saferide actually do? It cannot sense wheel lock point because there are no sensors, ECM etc. So how does it work?

2. What is Traction Control Braking (TCB)? What are the principles of TCB? Is this the same as Saferide?

3. Does a motorcycle ABS work only on the front wheel in a bike which has mechanical (wire/rod-actuated) rear wheel brakes? And on bikes with rear hydraulic discs, can the ABS work as an LSPV too? - in which case, just one actuation point should do (foot brake or right lever) - unlike riding conventional bikes, where both hand and foot need to be used.

[v&v]

SST, i too was searching the Bike ABS technology, after booking the 250 cbr.
The two articles has fair info of basic system.

http://world.honda.com/motorcycle-pi...k/eCBS/detail/
http://140.116.240.46/ISAD/files/N18931398-a.pdf
http://www.motorcycle.in.th/article....c-Combined-ABS

Isn't the load sensing valve are used where front is disk and rear is drum and are usually used in heavy vehicles.

Nice topic.

[Sutripta]

Originally Posted by Rehaan

How does this mechanical system work?
Does it pulse or does it just limit fluid pressure somehow?

Originally Posted by SS-Traveller

A topic that I too need to learn a lot on. Never been a 2-wheeler person.
Few questions:

1. What does Saferide actually do? It cannot sense wheel lock point because there are no sensors, ECM etc. So how does it work?

2. What is Traction Control Braking (TCB)? What are the principles of TCB? Is this the same as Saferide?

Hi,
Let's first close the chapter on the 'saferide' system. Which seems to be similar to the 'TCB' system.

From what I can make out, it is essentially a small accumulator, and very narrow connection between master cylinder and caliper.

If one grabs a handful of brake (panic stop) this device will ensure that the brakes are applied more gently and gradually. In that it will mimic the squeeze gently - shift weight - now squeeze more method of applying brakes. What it will actually do if you are gentle on the brakes, I do not know. In any case, as we understand it, ABS it is not.

As SST and Rehaan have pointed out, I think we'll step back from ABS for cars, to the difference between car and bike dynamics, and differences in their braking systems.

@ VV, thanks for the links. Good beginning, but I think we need more than the companies publicity material.

Regards
Sutripta

[dhanushs]

Here's a pretty decent explanation of the ABS on the RTR 180. It looks like it does have an ECU.

YouTube - TVS Apache RTR 180 ABS First Ride on OVERDRIVE

[heavy_foot]

And here is an explanation of how the ABS works on the Honda fireblade, which i belive is implemented in the 250r as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6kO6ltk3a0

edit: one more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7Eb3AVqwow&NR=1

[Sutripta]

Hi to all,

Great enthusiasm guys. However, we need something more than just the company's publicity material. Question is not 'Describe TVS/ Continental, and Honda ABS system' but rather why these are the way they are, how these differer from car ABS implementations, and why,

Given the paucity of information, we are going to pool our heads together, design our own (paper) ABS system for bikes, and as our understanding grows, critique our system against the manufacturers systems (and vice-versa).

As mentioned before, the two bikes have very different philosophies.

Just to get the ball rolling, a few (seemingly unconnected) questions:-
A) How do we brake a car? A bike? Any differences?

B) Car ABS systems have BA (Brake Assist) built in nowadays. Why is it necessary? Would the braking system not function to its full potential without it?

A) How do we detect an about to lock wheel? On a car? On a bike? Any differences?

Regards
Sutripta

[Leepower]

Just check out this site: Saferide claims:
"Eata Group of Companies is a frontrunner in developing & manufacturing precision Automotive Components since 1976. Saferide is the latest among them – A Motorcycle Antilock Braking System (ABS) that helps maintain proper control of the motorcycle during emergency braking situations and thereby minimizing chances of skidding.
Today’s fast moving world needs products that help sustain this pace, preserving the most important aspect of the world – Human Life. Saferide does the same by adding a great extent to safety of Braking System of motorcycles.
In India, We are among the pioneer to launch Antilock Braking System (ABS) for motorcycles. Saferide is applicable to a wide range of Indian Motorcycles having Disc Breaks, viz. Honda, Hero Honda, Yamaha, Bajaj, TVS Motors, Suzuki India and many more…
Saferide – Motorcycle Antilock Braking System (briefly referred to as ABS) helps driver to ensure proper control of the vehicle during emergency braking situations and hence reduces drastically chances of accidents. Saferide prevents wheels from Locking during braking – and thereby minimizes chance of skidding."
Source: Saferide ABS
My point is are they misleading customers by claiming that they are selling ABS like the one on Honda CBR 250R????
And they are selling it only for around Rs 1200 bucks, that speaks for the quality -- Honda is charging 20K more for CBR 250R with ABS???
And ABS as far as my limited knowledge goes only works if you have disc brakes on the front and rear, right??? So to install it on my Bullet 350, I'll have to first install rear discs. Correct me if I am wrong.

[v&v]

B) Car ABS systems have BA (Brake Assist) built in nowadays. Why is it necessary? Would the braking system not function to its full potential without it?

AFAIK BA is for emergency braking. BA sensor in combination with ECU detects the amount of force applied on brake paddle and how quickly it was done. BA makes emergency braking little more quicker than normal braking.

[jkdas]

ABS in Honda or Ferrari should be the same. Isnt it a standard technical jargon? If the technology or the way it works is different, can one call it ABS?

Edit:
From WIki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lock_braking_system

Seems it can be different ( the way it work and the algorithm used)

[Sutripta]

Originally Posted by Leepower

Just check out this site: Saferide claims:
......
Correct me if I am wrong.

Pls. go through the previous posts, esp. #7.
If on the other hand, I've got it wrong, more information and correction would be appreciated.

Originally Posted by v&v

AFAIK BA is for emergency braking. BA sensor in combination with ECU detects the amount of force applied on brake paddle and how quickly it was done. BA makes emergency braking little more quicker than normal braking.

Yes, thats a collateral benefit. But why was it first introduced? I think it'll provide an interesting insight.

Originally Posted by jkdas

ABS in Honda or Ferrari should be the same. Isnt it a standard technical jargon? If the technology or the way it works is different, can one call it ABS?

Car ABS systems pretty much follow the same philosophy. Which is why I wanted to take it as a starting point.

Regards
Sutripta

[Leepower]

My question was is Saferide misleading customers??? This is what the company claims "In India, We are among the pioneer to launch Antilock Braking System (ABS) for motorcycles..."