[Latheesh]

Originally Posted by condor

The best is the view from above, front 3/q - in Urban Bronze - as seen on the brochure.

+1 that is the best

Viewing from some angle especially side profile, Storme front does not look good. Bulge on the bonnet is not helping either, but I feel a fake body colour hood scoop may sort that issue.

[4x4addict]

Originally Posted by amit_mechengg

Why the fuss about front facing 3rd seat? A SUV in real terms can pack up the mountain terrain bike, or a full camping luggage , huge luggage and what not. You cant do all off those in front facing seats as much as you can do it in Storme.

Can you explain who people go moutain biking, camping, etc in Pajero's, Pajero Sports, Monteros, Fortuners, Land Cruisers etc??

I know you like Tata, but one cannot accept trivial excuses for their lack of interest to compete.

Unlike other manufacturers Tata cannot afford to be arrogant or complacent. Given the general skepticism in the market that is obvious from the fact that a far inferior product like the Scorpio sells three times as much as a Safari, they need to go the extra length to bag a customer. Putting front facing third row will definitely improve the sales of the Safari. It may make many fence sitters go for it. What is the big deal about ARAI regulations? If Mahindra can do it, why not Tata. One cannot blame ARAI for lack of will power.

Originally Posted by amit_mechengg

If at all the 3rd front facing seat is a deal breaker for someone, go to a fabricator and he will design and do the conversion in matter of hours. Many people have done it on their older safaris.

I thought about this option, but after spending 16+ lakhs OTR should I spend time in a tinker shed to make a crude/possible unsafe front facing seat?

[amit_mechengg]

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

Can you explain who people go moutain biking, camping, etc in Pajero's, Pajero Sports, Monteros, Fortuners, Land Cruisers etc??

I know you like Tata, but one cannot accept trivial excuses for their lack of interest to compete.

Unlike other manufacturers Tata cannot afford to be arrogant or complacent. Given the general skepticism in the market that is obvious from the fact that a far inferior product like the Scorpio sells three times as much as a Safari, they need to go the extra length to bag a customer. Putting front facing third row will definitely improve the sales of the Safari. It may make many fence sitters go for it. What is the big deal about ARAI regulations? If Mahindra can do it, why not Tata. One cannot blame ARAI for lack of will power.



I thought about this option, but after spending 16+ lakhs OTR should I spend time in a tinker shed to make a crude/possible unsafe front facing seat?

Well ofcourse they can put a overhead carrier and take them all

Well its not about " You Like TATA" . What you say is also correct. They should put more effort to reach out to customers need. Very well said.

But my whole point is to just try to figure out some option for those over the fence people who are just breaking a deal for the damn front facing 3rd seat, surpassing all other goodies of the Storme.
Now dont get those Scorpio figures again and again here. Lets not discuss what indians buy mostly. Yes they buy dezire, anything from toyota such as etios and what not.

You can easily fabricate a OEM front facing row, which will be as safe as other cars.

[safari_lover]

Originally Posted by amit_mechengg

there is a big story behind it. Cannot discuss it in this thread. There is enough money saving too involved in it.

I always thought there was something that was stopping Tata to take out the word 'Indica' from the Vista completely. Other product with a similar case that comes to my mind is the zen Estilo. May be you can write about how the money gets saved in a general way if possible, without referring to any particular manufacturer or product. It would be an interesting read for sure.

Mods, please excuse this one last OT from me

[swiftnfurious]

Originally Posted by Latheesh

I have seen many posts in this forum and others for front facing third row in Safari. If there is demand in market why not invest to meet them?. These ARAI certification complications are difficult to meet for new players but for a company like TML it may not be that difficult isn't it?...

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

....Putting front facing third row will definitely improve the sales of the Safari. It may make many fence sitters go for it....

I choose to disagree with the idea of 3rd row seats.

Reason: If one knows that putting a front facing 3rd row is going to be just for the sake of it, why do it in the first place? Now a whole lot of people want a front facing 3rd row. Once they get it, they will say its NOT comfortable for a 6'5" guy! And then the same people will come & say that there is NO luggage space, why did TATA design such a 3rd row. They will also comment how TATA should have extended the length of the car to meet extra space for 3rd row & luggage as well!

So, where does a manufacture draw a line? For carrying 7 people TATA has another product called Aria. I think its upto the customers to choose what they want & stop expecting manufacturers to offer exactly what they want! I dont think there is ANY one vehicle which is perfect, so why blame TATA alone.

Probably Yes, there will be better numbers with the front 3rd row, but will that number justify the efforts & ROI on doing this project? I highly doubt.

Having said all these, I really loved Storme when I TDed (there were more SUVs in the list). Give me some time to put my report (not big anyway). Have been traveling & tied up quite a bit. Busy tomorrow as well.

[g_prajeesh]

Originally Posted by swiftnfurious

So, where does a manufacture draw a line? For carrying 7 people TATA has another product called Aria. I think its upto the customers to choose what they want & stop expecting manufacturers to offer exactly what they want! I dont think there is ANY one vehicle which is perfect, so why blame TATA alone.

I agree with the same point. I was looking for a SUV for 5 People with luggage space. The third row is just for emergency or for kids for a short trip. If people want to carry more people, Tata have a product. I don't believe people of 7 can really do a hardcore offroading. For mild offroading Aria can do that and it can carry 7 people onboard.

Including Fortuner, the 3rd row seat is just for a name sake or for some benefit from govt I believe and not for a comfort journey. For a short trip it doesn't matter whether it is a jump seat or front facing seat.

[Aceman82]

Originally Posted by amit_mechengg

To explain in better i exactly dont have the ARIA standards and the rules with me right now. I had a list earlier which i am not able to find.

.............................

When the necessary certifications and permissions are sought after by any manufacturer they file the documents under various sections of ARAI.

...........................

For the very fact that i would like to bring out to you guys is that if tata wants to offer LX model 4X4 , they have to go through ARAI process again.

My point is very simple : You get a very good SUV with immense offroading capabilities than a XUV or Captiva or similar, why not just fit a front facing 3rd row yourself? Even looking at the pictures its simple.

Amit, Thanks for the inputs on the certification stuff.

If this is the case then i am more concerned with TML than what i had originally envisaged since the cost cutting seems to be on overdrive as they don't want to spend time and money getting certifications.

I am not sure why getting certification should be so difficult when Scorpio seems to have both Side Facing and Front facing option with reclining for the middle row (in the front facing configuration). If Tata motors does not want to give a better seating arrangement like reclining middle row seats , front facing 3rd row seats , LX 4*4...etc just because it needs time and money to get ARAI certification then i really do not know what to say.

If it had needed a whole new Body then it is understandable but not giving all options purely because of certifications looks tragic. Then again Indica seems to have million combinations for which TML should have got the necessary clearance from ARAI. Probably both TML and ARAI works in mysterious ways .

As far as off-roading is concerned , less than 5% of the total public would ever take it off-road and a lot people (myself included) would not like the the idea of tinkering with a brand new car.

Originally Posted by amit_mechengg

Well its not about " You Like TATA" . What you say is also correct. They should put more effort to reach out to customers need. Very well said.

But my whole point is to just try to figure out some option for those over the fence people who are just breaking a deal for the damn front facing 3rd seat, surpassing all other goodies of the Storme.
Now dont get those Scorpio figures again and again here. Lets not discuss what indians buy mostly. Yes they buy dezire, anything from toyota such as etios and what not.

You can easily fabricate a OEM front facing row, which will be as safe as other cars.

I don't really understand what "Goodies" Storme offers over the competition which is the XUV500. Except for All Wheel Disk brakes everything else is normal for a Body on Frame SUV. If it has TCS, ESP, All round airbags...etc then it is could have been considered as ''Goodies" but as things stand they don't even give the Airbags option in the LX model. Hence what Storme has is the bare minimum needed for current competition.

As far as impressing the fence sitters is concerned, most of Car buyers are technically fence sitters since he/she would look all options in the price bracket before deciding and small things does go a long way in making an impression. This where i would need to appreciate Mahindra in trying pack as much as possible whether the end user needs all those features are not. It gives a feeling that they want to impress the customer as much as possible.

Also if tata does not worry about the fence sitters then i don't understand why the 2000 combinations for Indica and also why they are still selling the old safari.

Coming what Indians buy mostly , the average buyer is generally more intelligent than what we in team-bhp give them credit for. What is important for the average car buying public is ease of maintenance , resale and looks which in-turn translates in Value for money co-efficient. Hence Toyota and Maruthi sells. As a matter of fact after spending 7+ years with a Tata product , i am beginning to appreciate the values of the average car buying public.

[smekad]

Saw the new safari storme displayed in KHT motors today. The interiors are much better now compared to the old safari. The quality of plastics is decent too.

However the price for the VX 4x4 put me off. It comes a shade above 17L OTR Bangalore. I can't stop comparing Storme VX 4x4 to XUV5OO AWD that provides more airbags, ESP, HDC and a lot more features for almost the same price.

Agreed, that Storme might be a better off-roader, but for hard core 4x4 action it makes more sense to save some buck and buy a Thar 4x4 .. You could buy yourselves a c segment sedan with the cash you save!

[Steeroid]

Originally Posted by Aceman82

I am not sure why getting certification should be so difficult when Scorpio seems to have both Side Facing and Front facing option with reclining for the middle row (in the front facing configuration).

Have you noticed that the gap between the back of your head and the rear glass is a few centimeters in the front-facing configuration of the vehicle just mentioned?

Getting ARAI certification may or may not be an issue, but I am happy they do not offer a similar configuration on the Safari because I wouldnt want to put my kid in that last row.

[4x4addict]

Originally Posted by g_prajeesh

Including Fortuner, the 3rd row seat is just for a name sake or for some benefit from govt I believe and not for a comfort journey. For a short trip it doesn't matter whether it is a jump seat or front facing seat.

I guess you have not traveled in the Fortuner 3rd row. It is has more space than the Aria 3rd row.

Originally Posted by amit_mechengg

Well ofcourse they can put a overhead carrier and take them all

Or the seat can be removed when only 5 passengers are travelling and you need extra load capacity. I used to do this regularly on my Landcruiser.

Tata has already developed the front facing 3rd row as displayed in Geneva auto show last year, so why not offer them as an option? Scorpio gives you either side or front facing option, I chose the front facing option. It is very cramped but kids like to go back there and sleep.

And Amit, What are the so called "all other goodies in the Storme" over the current Safari? 1) Hydroformed Chasis, 2) rear disk Brakes, 3) IFS with Coils up front? 4)? 5) ? 6)?

[amit_mechengg]

Originally Posted by Aceman82

As far as off-roading is concerned , less than 5% of the total public would ever take it off-road and a lot people (myself included) would not like the the idea of tinkering with a brand new car.

I don't really understand what "Goodies" Storme offers over the competition which is the XUV500.

It gives a feeling that they want to impress the customer as much as possible.

Coming what Indians buy mostly , the average buyer is generally more intelligent than what we in team-bhp give them credit for. What is important for the average car buying public is ease of maintenance , resale and looks which in-turn translates in Value for money co-efficient. Hence Toyota and Maruthi sells. As a matter of fact after spending 7+ years with a Tata product , i am beginning to appreciate the values of the average car buying public.

If you dont want to go offroad and want the 3rd row seating itself, you can buy the ARIA or Xlyo too if people mover is only the criteria.

The body on frame itself is a goodie. Storme has undoubtedly more offroading capabilities than the XUV500. If some Gizmos- which fail every now and then, those conking off projectors, those faking out tyre pressure monitoring system etc etc is what you are considering as goodies and more VFM then its good that TATA hasnt put them.

Wow , now you want LX model with airbags Why not instead buy VX?
Storme has ABS on LX model too which is a good thing.

Yes Ratan Tata too agrees - Mahindra is more dynamic, no doubts.

Well theres the point, average buyers , we know buys mostly what his ignorant neighbor and relatives tell them. He will buy a dezire- however bad it looks, just because its a Maruti - which the masses buy. He will buy a Autorickshaw type seats- etios because suddenly he feels everything from toyota is best.,
The above average masses buy these cars in second hand market too and hence their resale values.


I would choose a car that will serve me good, bring a smile to my face, which will save me in that nasty accident, will handle good than worrying about what resale i would get and what my beigbor has.

Due to this mentality itself good cars like Fluence, Punto, Linea, Cruze are overlooked. Irony is diesel mills from FIAT enable maruti to sell 95% of their diesel cars and average indian buyers doesnt even know the engine make.
Had it been Maruti selling a fiat punto or linea in their showrooms there would have been a lottery system draw with people standing in queue outside the showroom - Why - coz its a MARUTI.

[ajmat]

Originally Posted by amit_mechengg

You can easily fabricate a OEM front facing row, which will be as safe as other cars.

I beg to differ

1: A seat is only complete with fully functioning seat belts
2: A seat should be able to remain secured during a severe impact. Imagine the seat + passenger being launched through the cabin

[amit_mechengg]

Originally Posted by ajmat

I beg to differ

1: A seat is only complete with fully functioning seat belts
2: A seat should be able to remain secured during a severe impact. Imagine the seat + passenger being launched through the cabin

Why dont you get a seat fabricated like this, with seat belts. Why would the seat fly? In Pune itself the seat fabricator says he will retain the seat belts. I am mostly doing this mod on my old safari. He has quoted 7-10k for the same.

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by amit_mechengg

Well theres the point, average buyers , we know buys mostly what his ignorant neighbor and relatives tell them. He will buy a dezire- however bad it looks, just because its a Maruti - which the masses buy. He will buy a Autorickshaw type seats- etios because suddenly he feels everything from toyota is best.,
The above average masses buy these cars in second hand market too and hence their resale values.
.
.
.
an buyers doesnt even know the engine make.
Had it been Maruti selling a fiat punto or linea in their showrooms there would have been a lottery system draw with people standing in queue outside the showroom - Why - coz its a MARUTI.

you make it sound like as if Maruti and Toyota have conspired with some Evil genius doctor to alter the brain chemistry of buyers.
Those cars sell on their reputation. Many people who buy Maruti buy it again because they are satisfied. Some do not.
However with Fiat and Tata most people who buy it once will never buy the brand again. Based on their experience.
After owning a Toyota for 10,000kms I can now understand why would somebody pay so much for a scooter on 4 wheels.
The joy of visiting the workshop only for service is very special.

Personally, the storme makes good sense for me. I know the vehicle, i know tata service, I know what works and what does not, and its a known devil. But will I buy it? Slim chance. I have gone through the pain of visiting service center every few thousand kms for this issue or that, and also had a breakdown in a brand new vehicle. I would not pay 2X for reliability, but if a vehicle like fortuner(which measured in features offers zilch above the storme) was 1.5x the cost of storme, I would jump for it.

Storme is a big change in the safari, but if the Tata safari and Mahindra scorpio were the only vehicles in the market, it would have been a rockstar. but the market has moved on. There is no reason why a 2WD buyer should look at Storme instead of SUV. It offers nothing over XUV which is a much better value at lower cost.

As for the scorpio, that vehicle has ruggedness proven. Ditto for bolero. They both me be funny looking ancient workhorses, but they are more "reliable".

This is not 1970s that you can take customers for a royal ride and they have to come back to you. The market is big, the market is open, and if you build a better mousetrap, the world will beat a path to your door.

[ajmat]

Originally Posted by amit_mechengg

Why dont you get a seat fabricated like this, with seat belts. Why would the seat fly? In Pune itself the seat fabricator says he will retain the seat belts. I am mostly doing this mod on my old safari. He has quoted 7-10k for the same.

How do you guarantee that both the seat and the seat belt mountings can withstand the stresses during a high speed impact ? Are the mountings reinforced?

The seat coupled with the passengers weight if secured on the seat could prove too much for the mounting points