[rock75]

Originally Posted by Dr.Suraj

So,

Earlier suspension was too soft?
And now it is too hard?

Is it just a copy paste or have parameters been re-evaluated?

Are fit & finish are still AS bad as 17 months ago?
I seriously doubt!

Is it still the same gamble? Surely not.
A lot has changed over 17 months for sure.

Niggling issues are still persistent in the new car?
How? Verified? Thr car was just launched!

I agree with all statements Team BHP must not use generic statement and a refresh review should also be refreshed.
Not copy paste.

So if tata has stiffened the suspension, it is not as soft as the 74bhp, while previously it was the soft suspension which was what you won't like.

niggling issues? you said it better man!

'service is a gamble' it's fashionable to deride tata motors.

Well which car doesn't have niggles, there is a thread (by GTO) which shows it's common to find expensive cars like merc, audi, bmw etc being carried on a loading trailer truck for breaking down midway.

What you wont' like does not necessarily have to run for 5-6 points and if you genuinely can't find more than 2 points , let it be rather than be partial, i suggest that it be edited now.

Why not, for a change, appreciate that an Indian manufacturer is trying to give value for money at a lower price point.

[car_da_mum]

Originally Posted by gauravdgr8

I think we should atleast praise the manufacturer for providing a product at 6 lacs. Can anyone else even think of doing it? What does it actually take, to increase the engine power from 75 bhp to 90. An RD box costs 20k, and that's what Tata has done. Only increased the price by 20k from the normal version.

Hats off to TATA

It's not the inclusion of any RD box that's jacked up the bhp rating to 90. It's the use of a VGT instead of a "waste-gate type" turbocharger. Is the differential cost between VGT and the other type 20K?

Also, these relatively sophisticated (MJD) engines cannot be repaired/serviced by the average road-side mechanic, as opposed to the Indica used by cabbies. With Tata's appalling service network, the ownership experience gets very very expensive if you factor in your peace of mind.

[narayan]

I feel the D90 may not do much to the sales of the Vista, hopefully they will extend the better fit and finish to the entire range as well. I checked out the D90 in the showroom and while the fit and finish is better, one needs to note that this is for a NEW CAR. The problem is the plastics that TML uses really dont age well. In 1/2 years of usage, you will find these looking like its from a 5-8 yr old car. Any improvement is always welcome though

[Zappo]

All those clambering for Tata and suggesting things like the panel gap in fitment is one off, the head unit with its poor fitting buttons and gaps are ok and probably most head units look the same upclose, the gaping hole when the steering is adjusted for rake at its lowest position and the visible tyre-tube like material are ok because you do not change the steering wheel position ever so often and all that... Please. Let us stop this. And also, you might be a big Tata fan or may be even a neo-convert but then ask an old Tata hand. I have had experience with Tatas right from their Sierra days right to this date. I still personally own an Indica (not the Vista) and use a Manza on a regular basis (my closest friend's car) every week. Or ask fellow Mod Tanveer who owned an Indica till few months back and still runs around the world in a Safari. You will get an answer.

We all love Tata for what they are and what they managed to achieve, all on their own, starting from zero. Still, the fact remains, you need to progress with times. All those issues that I picked from this thread and their defences (again, from this thread) actually are just defences to the point of being defensive. Let us be practical and acknowledge that Tatas definitely need to improve on those areas. Shoddy fitment and quality hurts them badly on the long run. As far as their service is concerned, I do not know about what your personal experiences are but I was happier a few years back than I am now. At least here in Hyderabad, Tata has effectively created a mega dealer in Tejaswini where I just am afraid to walk in as it gives me the feeling of being in a Kumbh mela. Giving a vehicle there (provided they decide to accept it... ) often means leaving it with them for the next 3-4 days. Also, smallest of the problems are inflated to sound like very big ones with unnecessary and unrelated change requirements given out as remedy. And all this without even bothering to check. By the way, when the reviews say that Tata service is a bit of a gamble it is mentioning about the differences in the level of service across the nation. You may be extremely happy with your guy at your neck of the wood but there will be another couple of you at other parts of the country who will tell you the opposite. And thats where the gamble is. The service level needs to be uniform across the country and for any errant dealer the correction should come swiftly right from the top. Till then people will have to live with the gamble as you may not know at the buying stage how good the service there is (unless you have talked to a lot many buyers who service from that dealership).

Uh huh! Tatas might be trying to remedy too many things at a time but how much they are succeeding is still a little bit of a gray area.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by car_da_mum

With Tata's appalling service network, the ownership experience gets very very expensive if you factor in your peace of mind.

Appalling??? They have the largest service network, second only to Maruti I believe.

[Reinhard]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

Appalling??? They have the largest service network, second only to Maruti I believe.

Indeed. I feel its primarily the stereotype towards the TATA cars that has made this "no peace of mind" myth about them. I've plenty experience with top rated Maruti, Hyundai sales & service stations in Pune, and none ever pleased me. If one is sufficiently aware of how a car and machines work, the way the service advisor tries to cheat you into changing/buying things is glaringly obvious. I never felt that at TASS. They may not be smartly dressed alright - but what matters to me is the bill I pay and the job I get done.

Non awareness about their products is glaringly evident even on ultra knowledgeable places like T-BHP. For example some points to note about this very review [NOM] -

1. The rear 12V socket is present on my 2 year old vista 75.
2. ABS has been standard on Aura (today's VX) & upward variants since 2 years. Since D90 is VX and ZX, it gets ABS too.
3. The instrument panel lights dim when headlights are turned on - understanding that its dark and higher illumination is irritating. This feature is already in my 2 year old vista & I can even control the daylight and night intensity for them.
4. the damping foam around bonnet hinges has been standard since ages. Again - my vista has it. Even a friend's ~4 year old Vista TDi has it.

IMO, the jack mounts though an eye sour, actually work as sort of buffers They hit before the car body.

I always feel Tata put too many features in, don't manage to market and showcase them (even to own sales staff) and this in large yet mostly immature auto market that decides mostly on brand and "status" rather than the "technical specifications" page of the broucher.

One thing I felt missed was an option for 15" wheels from the Manza? I feel 14" though adequate are still small for that huge ~1 tonne tank on top. As for the tires I tested plenty and feel that the GoodYear DB Series tires are the most silent when mated to the Vista. The GT3s and Bridgstone B3xx tires make eardrums numb!

Thanks for the detailed review!
Given the competitive price of the VX D90, I expect to see a lot of them on the roads.

[mohandas]

Originally Posted by Zappo

At least here in Hyderabad, Tata has effectively created a mega dealer in Tejaswini where I just am afraid to walk in as it gives me the feeling of being in a Kumbh mela. Giving a vehicle there (provided they decide to accept it... ) often means leaving it with them for the next 3-4 days.

In the same hyderabad, there is another TASC, called Mallik Cars (Sheikpet). I used to own a petrol indica till last oct and used to visit them for regular service. Whatever be the service interval, they never kept the vehicle more than couple of hours. They always delivered the vehicle at the promised time. Only thing, I used to make appointments well ahead of the time - religiously.

See it is the same city, only different dealer. So, just by having a bitter experience at Tejaswini, we should not make a blanket statement that TASC is bad.
Just my 2 cents.

[Zappo]

Originally Posted by mohandas

In the same hyderabad, there is another TASC, called Mallik Cars (Sheikpet). I used to own a petrol indica till last oct and used to visit them for regular service. Whatever be the service interval, they never kept the vehicle more than couple of hours. They always delivered the vehicle at the promised time. Only thing, I used to make appointments well ahead of the time - religiously.

See it is the same city, only different dealer. So, just by having a bitter experience at Tejaswini, we should not make a blanket statement that TASC is bad.
Just my 2 cents.

I don't even want to start talking about them. They (the sheikpet A$$) are the ones who wanted to charge me Rs.48000 for a new Fuel Pump plus other incidental expenses without any proper diagnosis. They even told me thats the problem and if I do not agree I can take the car checked elsewhere. Its all drafted in a different thread on this forum. Finally it turned out to be a few hundred bucks worth of connector pipe which needed a replacement and I got it done elsewhere.

And by the way, on your line "we should not make a blanket statement that TASC is bad"... I have experience with TASC from across India (I drive extensively and many a times its a Tata that I have driven on those sojourns) for years. My statement is very well weighed out after considering the dealers in Kolkata, Bangalore, Faridabad and a few other places.

However I go with the flow of your thoughts that there are indeed some good dealers/A$$ available across India (I have seen that myself). And that's why we say, its a gamble. It entirely depends on with whom you land up on a day. And that's precisely how it should NOT be.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by Zappo

However I go with the flow of your thoughts that there are indeed some good dealers/A$$ available across India (I have seen that myself). And that's why we say, its a gamble. It entirely depends on with whom you land up on a day. And that's precisely how it should NOT be.

Isn't that the case with almost every brand out there? If the dealer is out to extort money, assuming you don't know anything about car mechanical's, will do it no matter what brand or place? The question we need to ask is what happens if incidents like these are reported to the manufacturer and if any action is taken? In any case, in case of diagnosis, just like it happens with doctors, its always better to take second opinion especially if the expense is large like it was in your case. Or on second thoughts, they genuinely thought the problem was what they had diagnosed in which case they should be called incompetent?

[Dr.Suraj]

Originally Posted by rock75

What you wont' like does not necessarily have to run for 5-6 points and if you genuinely can't find more than 2 points , let it be rather than be partial, i suggest that it be edited now.

Why not, for a change, appreciate that an Indian manufacturer is trying to give value for money at a lower price point.

Totally Agree !

Originally Posted by narayan

The problem is the plastics that TML uses really dont age well. In 1/2 years of usage, you will find these looking like its from a 5-8 yr old car. Any improvement is always welcome though

Ageing was indeed a problem especially with interior plastics & exterior paint.
That too has improved significantly - somewhere more so after JLR acquisition I think.

Originally Posted by Zappo

We all love Tata for what they are and what they managed to achieve, all on their own, starting from zero.

Once again - no love was felt in the review.
While clarifying the points that have been mentioned where not at all to be seen in the review!

And I think - personally - my opinion.
When I wrote here - MORE than defending Tata it was about the fact that usual Team BHP review that we are so used to and the ones that we so much LOVE - it just did not feel the same.
Fair, unbiased, thorough, well researched / tested.

The usual disclaimer line "XYZ invited TeamBHP for the review and paid for all expenses" was also missing.

In 1 of the replies - it was mentioned that you had an extensive discussion with TML employees / engineers.
So did they not welcome Team BHP?
Did they not treat Team BHP well.

If so - that can still be mentioned as 1 of the negatives

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

Appalling??? They have the largest service network, second only to Maruti I believe.

Really? Quite possible!

Originally Posted by Reinhard

I never felt that at TASS. They may not be smartly dressed alright - but what matters to me is the bill I pay and the job I get done.

Non awareness about their products is glaringly evident even on ultra knowledgeable places like T-BHP. For example some points to note about this very review [NOM] -

1. The rear 12V socket is present on my 2 year old vista 75.
2. ABS has been standard on Aura (today's VX) & upward variants since 2 years. Since D90 is VX and ZX, it gets ABS too.
3. The instrument panel lights dim when headlights are turned on - understanding that its dark and higher illumination is irritating. This feature is already in my 2 year old vista & I can even control the daylight and night intensity for them.
4. the damping foam around bonnet hinges has been standard since ages. Again - my vista has it. Even a friend's ~4 year old Vista TDi has it.

IMO, the jack mounts though an eye sour, actually work as sort of buffers They hit before the car body.

I always feel Tata put too many features in, don't manage to market and showcase them (even to own sales staff) and this in large yet mostly immature auto market that decides mostly on brand and "status" rather than the "technical specifications" page of the broucher.

I agree to the last point. They still have not learnt to MARKET it well.
Their own sales staff often don't know half the features.

Originally Posted by mohandas

In the same hyderabad, there is another TASC, called Mallik Cars (Sheikpet). I used to own a petrol indica till last oct and used to visit them for regular service. Whatever be the service interval, they never kept the vehicle more than couple of hours. They always delivered the vehicle at the promised time. Only thing, I used to make appointments well ahead of the time - religiously.

See it is the same city, only different dealer. So, just by having a bitter experience at Tejaswini, we should not make a blanket statement that TASC is bad.
Just my 2 cents.

Agreed. I have had SUPER horrible experience with Wasan.
And frankly even they kept on improving - but they are still not as good as TCRS.

Originally Posted by Zappo

And by the way, on your line "we should not make a blanket statement that TASC is bad"... I have experience with TASC from across India (I drive extensively and many a times its a Tata that I have driven on those sojourns) for years. My statement is very well weighed out after considering the dealers in Kolkata, Bangalore, Faridabad and a few other places.

I too have had such an experience. Across Maharashtra.

As posted in detail in my ownership thread.

The experience at Hundekari Motors, Ahmednagar - after an accident.
To get my car back in 2 hours. In pristine condition.
With such impeccable service!
When they are 1 of the busiest & biggest T.A.S.S. on that part of the highway / city.

So I have had 9/10 with Tata at multiple places. Exception is Wasan Motors, Mumbai.

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

Isn't that the case with almost every brand out there? If the dealer is out to extort money, assuming you don't know anything about car mechanical's, will do it no matter what brand or place? The question we need to ask is what happens if incidents like these are reported to the manufacturer and if any action is taken? In any case, in case of diagnosis, just like it happens with doctors, its always better to take second opinion especially if the expense is large like it was in your case. Or on second thoughts, they genuinely thought the problem was what they had diagnosed in which case they should be called incompetent?

Again - very valid point. Totally agree.

One cannot change / control HUMAN behaviour. Tata still tries it's best. But I believe their policy is to TRUST humans.


Once again:

I believe it is not so much a thing of defending a Tata,

than the fact that it is not the Team BHP review we are used to & LOVE!

Fair, unbiased, thorough, well researched / tested.

[greenhorn]

Agreed that tata service might be better, but good enough? Surely you guys jest. I was quoted 25k last month for a Fuel pump service (over and above 17K for a 60K service) which I got done at a TVS lucas for a fraction of that - it turned out to be a different problem.
Unbiased does not mean that it has to be in line with your views. It just means that all views are accounted for.

[DieselAddikt]

Originally Posted by Zappo

And also, you might be a big Tata fan or may be even a neo-convert but then ask an old Tata hand. I have had experience with Tatas right from their Sierra days right to this date.

Come on man !! I thought the moderators were more mature than this. Many here have experiences with more than one Tata vehicles. That doesn't entitle you or anyone to be the ultimate in commenting. We are talking about the current scenario. The operative word here is "current".

Originally Posted by greenhorn

I was quoted 25k last month for a Fuel pump service (over and above 17K for a 60K service) which I got done at a TVS lucas for a fraction of that - it turned out to be a different problem.
Unbiased does not mean that it has to be in line with your views. It just means that all views are accounted for.

17K INR for 60K kms service ? Please write down the name of the Service Center as well. Make sure people don't go there. I got my 60K service for Vista done for about 8K INR IIRC in Concorde Kochi. May be I am lucky to have a good service center in my location.

And regarding the service experience, I used Maruti (M800 and Swift P) for 6 years combined before I moved to Vista. I have never felt any difference. In fact, getting all the work done at Maruti service center was more of a pain than with the Vista. Maruti guys were simply BUSY and were outright arrogant. I am not a person who takes arrogance with a pleasant smile. Just my view. Everybody has their own.


Note : Agree with others who felt that this review did not look like the official TBHP review that we are used to.

[greenhorn]

Originally Posted by DieselAddikt

Come on man !! I thought the moderators were more mature than this. Many here have experiences with more than one Tata vehicles. That doesn't entitle you or anyone to be the ultimate in commenting. We are talking about the current scenario. The operative word here is "current".

But the point is that we have enough owners with lousy experiences, including current ones, and while some of you may have had good experiences, others havent, which is why the service was claimed to be a "gamble" - that's the operative word here. Mind you that it was not called poor. It's just that it's very inconsistent. I'm not claiming that my bad experience makes your good one irrelevant, nor the other way round, just that it could happen both ways. If you doubt my crediblity, please head over to my ownership thread where I've posted bills for the last 6 years.

17K INR for 60K kms service ? Please write down the name of the Service Center as well. Make sure people don't go there. I got my 60K service for Vista done for about 8K INR IIRC in Concorde Kochi. May be I am lucky to have a good service center in my location.

Mine was at a concorde in chennai. In fact though the cost was eye watering, and I was forced to do certain things there which were not there in the initial estimate which jacked up the figure significantly, I was okay with it since they fixed most of the issues. I have serviced my car from Trivandrum, bhubaneswar, and now in chennai, and found huge inconsistencies in the level or service at these places. In fact, during my MBA I did a project on benchmarking Tata's service quality practices which kinda gives you a bit of inside information on why exactly it happens, and some of their interesting 'best practices'. While I'm not willing to go into the details, lets just say that I found their service quality design approach rather lacking compared to the others. And this was very recently. Talk to anybody who works in tata motors in customer service, and they'll grin diplomatically when you ask them how their job is.

[mohandas]

Originally Posted by Zappo

I don't even want to start talking about them. They (the sheikpet A$$) are the ones who wanted to charge me Rs.48000 for a new Fuel Pump plus other incidental expenses without any proper diagnosis. They even told me thats the problem and if I do not agree I can take the car checked elsewhere. Its all drafted in a different thread on this forum. Finally it turned out to be a few hundred bucks worth of connector pipe which needed a replacement and I got it done elsewhere.

Zappo: I am still not getting your logic. It's something like this - If you had bad experience then you can call it bad, even in the review. But, what about me - my experiences are all good - how can i agree with your review? that's why I said that we shouldn't make blanket statement. Again, i also do not agree with the word "gamble" here.

I recently had a bad experience with a MASC [Varun] ( I currently own an Ertiga VDi) - Can I call that all the MASC are bad? No - right.

Originally Posted by Zappo

And by the way, on your line "we should not make a blanket statement that TASC is bad"... I have experience with TASC from across India (I drive extensively and many a times its a Tata that I have driven on those sojourns) for years. My statement is very well weighed out after considering the dealers in Kolkata, Bangalore, Faridabad and a few other places.

Sirji- I do travel a lot as well -( in 5 months my ertiga clocked 22k) and had visited various MASC in different southern states - most cases my MASC experiences are "poor to average". But still I do not qualify making statement like MASC is bad/worse.

[narayan]

@greenhorn - in the interest of the larger forum request you to share your learning from the project you did. I presume its not confidential info which you are not legally permitted to share. I myself own a Vista and I'm NOT a Tata fanboy at all ! I have asked a few of my auto supplier customers who deal with Tml on why the parts quality is poor/failures high with Tml and not with other makers ( to whom they supply too ). They mentioned that its not to do with quality in most cases but just bad engineering. They say the specs that Tml gives may not be correct in the first place and hence its not thought through properly. Now you have made some statements about their service quality. I would really like to know more if you can share pls. Thanks