[safari_lover]

From some of the posts on this thread it appears that the folks who've been with Tata since their Indica days aren't very impressed with the progress made and feel there's still a lot needs to be done. OTOH, the owners of Tata's newer cars Vista, Manza, Nano, et al appear to be satisfied(?) with their ownership experience. Without meaning any disrespect to the owners of Tata's previous generation cars, can we have a poll on the ownership experience of the Tata's newer cars - Vista, Manza, et al.

Or may be we can do it for both new and old cars. This will give us a clear indication on how the things stand today.

[i74js]

Originally Posted by safari_lover

Without meaning any disrespect to the owners of Tata's previous generation cars, can we have a poll on the ownership experience of the Tata's newer cars - Vista, Manza, et al.

Or may be we can do it for both new and old cars. This will give us a clear indication on how the things stand today.

Well polling is never a bad idea, the fact of the matter is that other manufactures are setting new benchmarks for Indian customers which puts Indian manufacturers like TATA under pressure, we have M & M managing the show quite well. I would still say everyone has a market, its placing and projecting accordingly. Tatas have already lost SUV market to M & M and others will take away even the passenger car share from them.

They must look at changing the name, improved service (which they have done now, but they can do it better), engage with their customers because even if one looks at the taxi market which has majority of Tata (Indigo & Indica) is no longer with them, you will find M & M (Verito), Maruti (Desire Tour), Ford (Classic) Hyundai (Accent) as standard taxis alongside Tata.

Due to recession, the cake is not getting any bigger and thus the dog fight has to continue, Tatas will have to pull up their sleeves and make it happen for them.

[car_da_mum]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

Appalling??? They have the largest service network, second only to Maruti I believe.

It's not only the size of the service network that matters, it's also the quality of the service you get. A vast majority of Tata car owners vouch for the fact that the quality of service at these centers is very poor. My personal experience has been that matters escalated to even the Regional Service Manager of Tata Motors has not received attention, leave alone issues handled at the dealer level.

I would have been interested in trading in my Vista QJD Aura (less than 2 years old and 13K on the clock) for a D90, but no, not another Tata car for me ever again. Tata Motors have this culture of killing their own products with bad service. Somehow, they don't seem to get it that in this market segment (at least) you can't succeed without service support no matter how good your product is. In trying to change the mind sets and culture (towards customer orientation) at Tata Motors, Karl Slym has indeed a tough cut out job for him.

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by greenhorn

Agreed that tata service might be better, but good enough? Surely you guys jest. I was quoted 25k last month for a Fuel pump service (over and above 17K for a 60K service) which I got done at a TVS lucas for a fraction of that - it turned out to be a different problem.
Unbiased does not mean that it has to be in line with your views. It just means that all views are accounted for.

Tata Service and customer care network is at par most other manufacturers. Coming to "customer care" its actually more responsive and better.
The problem lies elsewhere.
When you make low quality products, your service center needs to be much better than competition.

Lets take 2 mfrs A and B
A makes very reliable cars, B makes car which keep breaking down.
LEts say same service center services both cars.
The guy bringing B cars to the service center will give a much more negative review to the service center than A.
This is the problem with Tata. Because their R&D does not want to, or have the capability to make a high percentage of niggle free cars, due to whatever reasons, the service center will be perceived as bad.
As long as the car is of high quality, good or bad service center will not matter. Of course if the service center is dishonest and swaps parts and the like, it matters, but shoddy workmanship won't matter.
how much expertise is needed to change oil?

As long as the car needs only oil changes, anybody can do the job.
But when things start breaking down, you need an expert.

If you look at feedback from owners, you will see that for companies like Maruti etc., where people are mostly happy with service, whenever accidental repair job needs to be done, the reviews are very negative. This is now because the service center has to do something beyond service, which most service centers are not capable off.

If Tata wants to improve the image of its after sales service, the right way to do it is not put a leather sofa in the lounge, but to make a car which does not require a laptop to be attached to ECU to clear error codes every 3000kms

[Mudhalaipatti]

I get a feeling that Tata's are innovation shy. They try to bleed to death their existing platforms, before even thinking of newer platforms and offerings. Look at Mahindra, Renault. They are not competing for the slice of the bread. They are creating their own and let others fight for a place. Apple does it and does it quite well in technology. I believe it has to do with the Tata culture. Risk appetite is rather low. It happens when you have grey hairs in the creative discussions.

From my previous ownership, I can't agree more with other owners. Their service is non existent, when I compare that with Mahindra. Owners aren't giving the pride of ownership. Tatas must start fresh, assuming that they do not have a car in the Indian market. And certainly forget their commercial segment. Bring in a new team to design a new car for the Indians. Do not jump on to the SUV bandwagon, but start thinking of creating a new segment and market it well. Not as 'the cheapest' or the 'real suv'.

[Arch-Angel]

I really agree to points put forth by mudhalaipatti. They are overpopulating their portfolio with excessive number of alternatives which brings me to a few conclusions.

Tata really loves the indica, indigo tag and can't seemingly get rid of it. Why not create a separate branding for a new model and alter its style slightly? We know for a fact that earlier indica models and the current one (looking at the vista here) are a few generations apart and cannot be compared. Its like comparing a desi phigar to a phoren bahu. I really can't wrap my head around what tata had in mind when they went about their business naming the vista what it is now, the indica vista that is.

As Tanveerji said, reliability comes from expertise, expertise comes from R&D. My question would be "Does tata have a good training program for its mechanics? or they picked up from the street garages and given their place?". No offences to them, but i frankly cannot be comfortable when someone not technically sound decides to open up my baby and seemingly "fix" my issues only to give me new ones in it place. I will experience premature greying while buying a car backed by a good A.S.S(rare to see, hopefully people will learn from toyota).

I had gone to a tata a.s.s earlier just to reaffirm my suspicions. The center i had gone to was somewhere near injambakkam in chennai. They do seem to be doing a good job, but i still wasn't entirely pleased by how things went about there. Suspicion clouding my judgement perhaps, but the rest of the things regarding interaction with the personnel was all fine in my opinion.

[swiftnfurious]

Originally Posted by DieselAddikt

...17K INR for 60K kms service ? Please write down the name of the Service Center as well...

Originally Posted by DieselAddikt

...In fact, getting all the work done at Maruti service center was more of a pain than with the Vista. Maruti guys were simply BUSY and were outright arrogant. I am not a person who takes arrogance with a pleasant smile. Just my view. Everybody has their own.

Please write down the name of the Service Center as well...We have been using Maruti cars for the last 14 years. Never had a problem with AVG's A$$ while we were never happy with Indus motors (the quality of service was never at par with AVG, but the cars were 100% niggle free; not a single break down)!

Originally Posted by mohandas

...But, what about me - my experiences are all good - how can i agree with your review? that's why I said that we shouldn't make blanket statement.

Because "few" had a good experience with TA$$, should we use the "blanket statement" that TA$$ is good?!!

Originally Posted by mohandas

I recently had a bad experience with a MASC [Varun] ( I currently own an Ertiga VDi) - Can I call that all the MASC are bad? No - right.

Let's accept it this way. We definitely have more positive reviews of MA$$ in total than the negative reviews! On the other side, TATA too have positive reviews, but at the same time, I do NOT think it's eons more than the negative reviews!

Until and unless the positive-negative ratio comes to 80-20, I don't think there is any point in calling the TA$$ "good"! Till then, it's more appropriate to be called a gamble! With the word, nobody is taking away the merits; rather putting it on one's luck to find the good ones, which I believe is FAIR!

[mohandas]

Originally Posted by swiftnfurious

Because "few" had a good experience with TA$$, should we use the "blanket statement" that TA$$ is good?!!

Who says it is "few"? Do you have any data point to support that claim?
Also, did I claim anywhere that TA$$ is good?

[greenhorn]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

This is the problem with Tata. Because their R&D does not want to, or have the capability to make a high percentage of niggle free cars, due to whatever reasons, the service center will be perceived as bad.

I dont think it's a pure R&D issue.
I had a problem with a door sensor and had mentioned it while giving for service last week. It was replaced, and the new door sensor still wouldn't work. I first thought they had forgotten to change the sensor, but when i looked, they had actually fitted a brand new sensor, but it was not working. When I pointed it out at the time of delivery, they first tried to adjust it to make it work, gave up, finally bought another new sensor, and this one worked fine. This was just ONE of the fun events that transpired that day.

I accept that there will always be defective parts (you can't achieve 100%), but this is not the first time in my experience, so if a tata original part (for which I am paying a premium over a generic part) cannot be expected to be working reliably, you can imagine what happens at TASC's, and worse - at their manufacturing plants.

[drmohitg]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

Tata Service and customer care network is at par most other manufacturers. Coming to "customer care" its actually more responsive and better.
The problem lies elsewhere.
When you make low quality products, your service center needs to be much better than competition.

Bang on. There service centres are not very far behind the others. But the problem lies with the products itself perhaps. With frequent breakdowns the only way a customer vents his frustration is at the service centre which for him is the face of the company. For instance I love Toyota after sales. But then for all those years of ownership I have never had any issues in the car. So for every service its just the regular filter/oil change job which they carry out swiftly and I come out all praises.

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by greenhorn

I dont think it's a pure R&D issue.
I had a problem with a door sensor and had mentioned it while giving for service last week. It was replaced, and the new door sensor still wouldn't work. I first thought they had forgotten to change the sensor, but when i looked, they had actually fitted a brand new sensor, but it was not working. When I pointed it out at the time of delivery, they first tried to adjust it to make it work, gave up, finally bought another new sensor, and this one worked fine. This was just ONE of the fun events that transpired that day.

I accept that there will always be defective parts (you can't achieve 100%), but this is not the first time in my experience, so if a tata original part (for which I am paying a premium over a generic part) cannot be expected to be working reliably, you can imagine what happens at TASC's, and worse - at their manufacturing plants.

A brand new part not working is not TASC problem. Its problem of Tata R&D(or the way they choose their suppliers). You have just reinforced the point I made.

Some other instances.
My safari, as many others had service light problem due to injector error code. What can TASC do. Replace injectors. Problem came again after replacing injectors. Multiple visit to TASC done by many customers. In the end "Service centers are rubbish, they cannot fix service light"
How did the problem get fixed? Well Tata changed ECU code. Problem was at R&D end.

4x4s safaris get vague steering after minor rough road driving. the culprit. Center pin bush.
Service center - Replace center pin bush.
Goes bad again after one "rough trip".
Customer - Service center cannot fix problem

Root cause correction - Tata came out with new steering design for Strome. Again it was an R&D issue

Then lets come to 4x4 camber issues. Camber adjustment requires shim removal and addition. On some safari's even after removing shims it cannot be repaired. You need to go to a suspension expert and get wishbones shaved.
Faulty design here. Again R&D did not test the vehicle properly. What did they expect? 4x4 to be driven on expressways?

Coming to the indica. Something or the other kept failing. Thermostat failed. Followed by starter motor within 50K. alternator regulator failed. Then the rectifier failed.

One after the other. Again, Tata did not check what is lucas giving them in form of an alternator. Problem with Tata R&D.

Go through ownership threads. Most part failures are in parts never touched by service center, and within 10-15000kms of ownership.
And the pattern keeps repeating. Their customer care has an excellent system where every event with vehicle is logged. Every part replacement is documented.

Yet, nobody at Tata is looking at the statistics and finding out stuff.
Even before vehicle release, nobody is doing enough testing. Let the customer test it out, we will fix it under warranty.

How does the entire initial batch of 2.2s come with a defective timing belt mechanism? Why did so many customers have to get stranded.

The shodiness of the product continues in every sphere, right from core components to "fit and finish". Rattling doors is something you can live with, but a car falling apart just because you drove it on a bad road? And that too a car supposedly built to "make your own road".

The service center is the face of the company, and this is why their ratings will be bad. If tata made decent vehicles, the service center would only need to change oil, atleast for first 70-80000kms.

[Dr.Suraj]

Again

Discussion going completely towards Tata.

Which is good. I would loce to print all this and send it to them via courier.

But

I think the point was that this review did not feel upto the high Team BHP standards.
(agreed by few more members in the thread)
And seemed very superficial or forced / obliged.

[extreme_torque]

@Tanveer: Bang on! For the same reason I haven't heard any major issue with the newer batch of Tata cars starting from the Indica Vista which my cousin own's, from the very first batch. Apart from ECU upgrade to a newer version to improve the performance of the A/C, he hasn't had any issues at all even though its not handled with a velvet glove, infact quite the opposite. Even the interiors have held well and there are no hard plastics or undue rattles from anywhere.
So when Tbhp reviews a new product, you cannot have the "you don't" from yesteryears because world has moved on and so has Tata. Lets give them credit where it is due.

[greenhorn]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

@Tanveer: Bang on! For the same reason I haven't heard any major issue with the newer batch of Tata cars starting from the Indica Vista which my cousin own's, from the very first batch. Apart from ECU upgrade to a newer version to improve the performance of the A/C, he hasn't had any issues at all even though its not handled with a velvet glove, infact quite the opposite. Even the interiors have held well and there are no hard plastics or undue rattles from anywhere.
So when Tbhp reviews a new product, you cannot have the "you don't" from yesteryears because world has moved on and so has Tata. Lets give them credit where it is due.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...-problems.html
and
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...roblems-7.html
these threads would seem to point otherwise

[teamveevee]

Originally Posted by swiftnfurious

Until and unless the positive-negative ratio comes to 80-20,

For any brand positive-negative ratio will be 20-80, That is the human nature, especially with indian culture. The only people who write reviews are the ones who had bad experience. How many times we go and write a good review. Look at some of the niggles thread. How many times we compliments our wives or mothers when they cook delicious food, never, because we expect it to be good all the time. But once when some thing wrong, we will complain about it. It is slightly different in western culture, they appreciate every time. Our wives and mothers also know this and accept no coments as a positive.
So dont rate a brand by the ratio of negatives and positives, but no of complaints per vehicle sold will be a better measure. That is the exact reason "Consumer Report" uses "defects per vehicle" as one of the measure for quality, not just total no of defects.

Originally Posted by Dr.Suraj

I think the point was that this review did not feel upto the high Team BHP standards.
(agreed by few more members in the thread) And seemed very superficial or forced / obliged.

Agree to some extent. But how come it got 4 stars?