[Astleviz]

Originally Posted by hkollar

Regarding the pricing of Leaf vs Focus.

Nissan sells at about US$24K at their showroom - This is before the federal tax credits of US$10,000/- which is directly provided to tax payer.

http://www.nissanofbowie.com/new/Nis...bc699d2168.htm

Nissan does not sell the Leaf at 24000$. That is the cost to an end user after federal rebates of upto 7500$. Even the link you have posted shows the same- 31650-7400=24230$. So Nissan sells a 110hp electric for 19L INR. Forget the Focus, you can get a Mustang V8 for that kind of money.

It's the same in UK- with battery the Leaf costs 21L INR after govt. rebates. If you lease the battery, it costs 16.5 L INR after rebates.
http://www.nissan.co.uk/GB/en/vehicl...fications.html

Not disputing your contention that cars should be reliable and niggle free, that's the least we expect from any product we buy, but when we are buying the world's cheapest anything - electric cars, mobile phones or kitchen appliances, we have to be ready for compromises before we put our money down. If an e20 was as good and reliable and well engineered as a Leaf, it would cost almost the same as a Leaf, not 6L INR. For 6L, you cannot buy a better electric car in the world.

In an ideal world, the issues you faced with your car shouldn't have been there in the first place. But in the real world, you will find more severe issues faced by people (some of them here on this forum) who paid upwards of 50L INR for a premium european car.

You are an early adopter, you have demonstrated a certain courage by treading where a lot of us would want to go but haven't because of our apprehensions about a new untested product/technology in India. If you are thoroughly dissatisfied, you can sell the car and get a Celerio AMT or even a nano AMT (though I doubt if your nano AMT experience will be totally hasslefree). But if these issues don't hamper your daily drive drastically, you can get together with some other e20 owners, start a group, share your experiences, help each other overcome those issues and more importantly share your experiences with Mahindra to help them develop the e20 to a point where it is acceptable as a decent electric car without too many problems. As an organized group, you will have a lot more clout with Mahindra than as a lone dissatisfied customer.

[hkollar]

Originally Posted by Astleviz

Nissan does not sell the Leaf at 24000$. That is the cost to an end user after federal rebates of upto 7500$. Even the link you have posted shows the same- 31650-7400=24230$. So Nissan sells a 110hp electric for 19L INR. Forget the Focus, you can get a Mustang V8 for that kind of money.

It's the same in UK- with battery the Leaf costs 21L INR after govt. rebates. If you lease the battery, it costs 16.5 L INR after rebates.
http://www.nissan.co.uk/GB/en/vehicl...fications.html

Not disputing your contention that cars should be reliable and niggle free, that's the least we expect from any product we buy, but when we are buying the world's cheapest anything - electric cars, mobile phones or kitchen appliances, we have to be ready for compromises before we put our money down. If an e20 was as good and reliable and well engineered as a Leaf, it would cost almost the same as a Leaf, not 6L INR. For 6L, you cannot buy a better electric car in the world.

In an ideal world, the issues you faced with your car shouldn't have been there in the first place. But in the real world, you will find more severe issues faced by people (some of them here on this forum) who paid upwards of 50L INR for a premium european car.

You are an early adopter, you have demonstrated a certain courage by treading where a lot of us would want to go but haven't because of our apprehensions about a new untested product/technology in India. If you are thoroughly dissatisfied, you can sell the car and get a Celerio AMT or even a nano AMT (though I doubt if your nano AMT experience will be totally hasslefree). But if these issues don't hamper your daily drive drastically, you can get together with some other e20 owners, start a group, share your experiences, help each other overcome those issues and more importantly share your experiences with Mahindra to help them develop the e20 to a point where it is acceptable as a decent electric car without too many problems. As an organized group, you will have a lot more clout with Mahindra than as a lone dissatisfied customer.

I appreciate your points about EV users being pioneers and having to put up with some unforeseeable issues. Also about forming a group of E2O owners. It does make sense.


However, I disagree with the idea that low cost as basis of lowering quality expectation. I would understand lowering product expectaion. Like with less than expected range (I was disappointed to note range drops drastically with Air-Conditioning, but understand).

But, how does one tolerate inefficiency of manufacturer. In fact, I had similar issues with Tata Indica way back in 2000, Within a month my problems started and god rid of it at the price I could get within 4th year.

And since then, I have owned a Toyota Innova for 10yrs now, and yet to find a single squeak/creaking sound in that car - it has nearly 120,000km on Odo, with many trips each year on horrible ghat roads! I also have a Maruti Estilo with 35,000km do, that is 8 years old, used only as city car - that too doesn't have any problems, except it developed a belt sound this year and was changed.

So, High quality & reliability is about manufacturing & sourcing process - not that of underlying technology (old or new).

---
Nissan leaf pricing:

You may have confused the federal credit with the discount provided in the URL i gave, because it is suspiciously similar to Federal Tax rebate (US$7,500). But, it indeed is a Nissan discount. They sells leaf for way less than their MSRP in USA, almost US$7K in discounts. I ask you to recheck the actual consumer prices in USA, not MSRP - Before Tax rebates.

Check this - http://www.nissansunnyvale.com/new/N...6e990e1edf.htm


I know this for a fact -Nissan is available for around US$25K before tax rebates. Because the tax rebates are individually claimed (unlike the subsidy provided by FAME in India) and do not reflect in cost of car at the dealership. You may want to ask some friend in US to check it at dealerships.

Once the federal and local rebates kick in The car can cost as low as US$17,000 in USA. I know this because a few of my colleagues in USA have got iLeaf. In fact, the 3 year lease on Nissan now is less than US$200/month, which is made possible because of leasing company obtaining the tax-rebate and calculating lease value on US$17K.

A friend of mine was telling me after accounting for fuel bills, he is practically running this car for free!
—

Value:

So, my contention remains -> CHEAP in cost doesn’t mean good value. Value = worth / cost. If worth of the car goes down, then even at low cost, it delivers low value.

If you compromise value in trying to be low cost, then you are shooting yourself in the foot. Because, to a customer High value matters. Not necessarily low cost. If cost was everything, people would only buy Cheap Chinese TVs, fridges etc.

I didn’t expect E2O to be leaf. I expected it to be Alto with Electric Drive. Good reliability & quality, but electric drive even at double the Alto price. That would be VALUE.

You are right about troubles found in European luxury vehicles. That is why I keep a safe distant from those vehicles. They are simply not good value for money paid.

—
E2O cheapest EV:

You speak of E2O being cheapest car in the world. I would say it isn’t. It only appears so, because India doesn’t need the safety norms of the cars sold in most developed nations.

You think it is Rs. 6L for E2O??? You can’t buy E2O for 6Lakhs outright. It was 8+ Lakhs MSRP without govt. subsidy. They sold it to me for Rs.7.52Lakhs. Even today without Govt. subsidy/tax rebates it is more like 7.2Lakhs. Try adding Rs. 1.24Lakhs subsidy amount to on-road of the vehicle.

That’s about US$12,000/- And at that price it doesn’t have any of the safety features built in to developed market cars. It doesn’t have space and metallic constructions either. The cheapest EVs in US (like Chevvy Spark EV) sell for around US$20,000 (after seller discounts, before tax rebates), with all safety/ABS/Airbags, crash tests etc. top of the line construction quality and materials with 8 year battery warranties.

And they do all that without compromising on reliability. THAT is value. And I’d be glad to pay Rs.12lakhs for 8 years of peace of mind, instead of Rs. 7.52lakhs I paid for E2O!!!

Now with E2O only guaranteeing 3 years (with a chinese Lithium battery). Even if youreplace battery in 4 years, your cost goes up by another Rs.1,80,000/- (US$3,000)…

So, think of Reva to be costing about US$15,000/- for 8 year ownership.

Also think of this - Nissan offers a full 24Kwh battery replacement with further 8yr warranty for Just US$5,500/-

Mahindra Reva wants US$3,000 for 10Kwh batteries, with only 3yr warranty?? This is when India has 0% import duty on EV battery?

http://www.autoblog.com/2014/06/27/n...ry-costs-5500/

——

Power comparison:

You are also doing the classic mistake of comparing the Horsepower (HP )of a electric vehicle with ICE vehicle. ICE vehicles need higher HP than EVs because ICE gets its torque/force in higher RPMs, and to have sufficient grunt/torque in lower RPM it needs higher capacity, thus higher HP overall.

But, EVs are different. They have their maximum torque at 0RPM. That makes a huge difference in driving and pickup/speed.

Here is a fact: Nissan leaf can do 0-60MPH faster than a Ford focus SE (Hatch). And In fact,Leaf can match Mustang in 0-60MPH in most real life scenario!! Even E2O is pretty decent in Boost mode (Though doesn't beat ICE hatchbacks, unlike Leaf).

http://3ln.org/articles/horsepower-vs-torque

——

I am dissatisfied with E2O mostly because of Mahindra Reva’s approach. But, I bought E2O for a reason - Electric Drive. So, as I stated earlier - I hope to own a electric car for most of my city commute for rest of my life. I believe cities should make this mandatory for pollution & environmental reasons.

But, that doesn’t mean I will advice others to buy E2O. Not unless Mahindra improves quality and brings in fair, transparent pricing that provides value.

[Aditya]

The e2o was spotted testing in Rajasthan. It is believed that the effectiveness of the car's air-conditioner was being tested. However, the company could also be testing the car's performance in hot weather.

Link to Team-BHP News Article









Source: Motorbeam

[VeluM]

Originally Posted by Aditya

However, yhe company could also be testing the car's performance in hot weather.

Is the position of the charging port also changed? As far as I knew it was positioned inside and one had to pass the wire through a gap in the rear windshield. Looks like the port is near the rear number plate? Or is this just a test vehicle jugaad

[kaviprem]

I hope, they havent changed the charging position. If not, someone can just take the charger when we put for charging in public places. Now, they cant do it. I dont know how it was in the original REVA.

BTW, there is a rear whipper. Its not there in my E2O !

Prem.

[samabhi]

Originally Posted by VeluM

Is the position of the charging port also changed?

Thats the provisioning for Super Charge Port. Every e2o has this provision at the back of the number plate. This is another good thing I like with e2o. Flexibility to have the new features installed. Super charging ports will be made available only at selected places as it needs commercial power and cannot be installed at home.

Originally Posted by kaviprem

I dont know how it was in the original REVA.

BTW, there is a rear whipper. Its not there in my E2O !

Prem.

For the old Reva, it was outside and anyone could take off the charger.

I don't know how useful the rear wiper will be.

[hkollar]

Originally Posted by VeluM

Is the position of the charging port also changed? As far as I knew it was positioned inside and one had to pass the wire through a gap in the rear windshield. Looks like the port is near the rear number plate? Or is this just a test vehicle jugaad

Originally Posted by samabhi

Thats the provisioning for Super Charge Port. Every e2o has this provision at the back of the number plate. This is another good thing I like with e2o. Flexibility to have the new features installed. Super charging ports will be made available only at selected places as it needs commercial power and cannot be installed at home.



For the old Reva, it was outside and anyone could take off the charger.

I don't know how useful the rear wiper will be.

Indeed. It is the super charging port. It is on offer at an additional cost (I think it is Rs.50,000 more). They have those fast chargers in very few locations. But, you can buy one from them.

From what I was told, they have a variation of CHADeMo standard for DC fast charging. Sadly, again they haven't followed an internationally accepted standard here too...

[antariksh]

Originally Posted by hkollar

Started hearing a strange (but feeble) noise from the back of E2O. It happens only when the car is in motion, i.e. must be either the shocks or some spring action... Irritating...

Dear sir,

do you hear the above noise only at the instant when the car starts moving?
or is a persistent noise.
I get a spring action noise only at the instant when car starts moving, which is a bendix drive noise and pretty normal for E2O.

please confirm.

-Antariksh Bahekar

[herculesksp]

Owners of E2O - Have you guys used the bluteooth handsfree of the car? Where is the mic of this bluetooth.

This feature is totally useless as I am unable to take any calls since others can't hear me. It is especially irritating when I am bluetooth streaming music and I get a call in between. Have to take the call and switch to speaker mode immediately.

[hkollar]

Originally Posted by antariksh

Dear sir,

do you hear the above noise only at the instant when the car starts moving?
or is a persistent noise.
I get a spring action noise only at the instant when car starts moving, which is a bendix drive noise and pretty normal for E2O.

please confirm.

-Antariksh Bahekar

I think I understand the noise you are talking about, which is an initial 'gudkk' noise that disappears once you start moving. It is like like an object that gets a thrown-back when it experiences acceleration. It never bothered me.

noise I was getting irritated with was when the car is moving. It is almost always there, when the car is shaking, that's why I felt it is some kind of spring/suspension noise. But, I have stopped worrying about it by rising the volume of my stereo (don't have patience to run to service station for each small issue).

Originally Posted by herculesksp

Owners of E2O - Have you guys used the bluteooth handsfree of the car? Where is the mic of this bluetooth.

This feature is totally useless as I am unable to take any calls since others can't hear me. It is especially irritating when I am bluetooth streaming music and I get a call in between. Have to take the call and switch to speaker mode immediately.

The ICE system of E2O is pathetic. Bluetooth streaming is very noisy, thus useless. Even the AUX input isn't very useful as it too is noisy.

so I always use the inbuilt USB, which is barely useable (not enjoyable). But, the bluetooth handsfree works for me, though the interface on the screen is a bit weird - you have to wait till only green & red buttons appear to accept or dismiss, and it doesn't appear immediately.

I wanted to change the ICE with some batter system. But, a well known third party guy who does stereo installation advised me against it as both the space & enclosure constraints.

The biggest problem in putting more powerful music within this car - the car enclosure is superficial, thus doesn't provide sufficient baffle(negative noise cancellation). thus you'll need to make proper speaker boxes. But, we don't have sufficient space to accommodate all this.

The best thing would've been if Mahindra provided a better ICE for the car, instead of this pathetic one. :(

[herculesksp]

Originally Posted by hkollar

But, the bluetooth handsfree works for me, though the interface on the screen is a bit weird - you have to wait till only green & red buttons appear to accept or dismiss, and it doesn't appear immediately.

Weird! I'll take it to the service guy. Probably I have a faulty unit. Its like there is just no mic.

Originally Posted by hkollar

The best thing would've been if Mahindra provided a better ICE for the car, instead of this pathetic one. :(

Seriously! For all the cost associated with the car and the frills they have thrown in, a decent ICE would have been so nice to have.

[kaviprem]

< Touchwood >
For me, Bluetooth works perfect. No complains from the other side about hearing problem.
BT streaming is also working good. No noise, only music. As a matter of fact, I am a traditional person who doesnt even believe in MP3 CDs [forget about USB, SD and BT]. But, with this, I start to use the BT and its comfortable to an extent.

My phone is NOKIA Lumia 625.

Prem.

[samabhi]

Originally Posted by herculesksp

Weird! I'll take it to the service guy. Probably I have a faulty unit. Its like there is just no mic.

The mic is right above the volume adjusting knob (as told by the SA). I could sync my phone through bluetooth.

I strongly recommend to call the Mahindra Reva Customer care rather than going to Dealers Service Center. Its just a waste of time. So far from my experience with Reva Service Center in HSR Layout, its best to have the Reva Engineer come to your home directly and work on the car.

[samabhi]

After 6 months of usage, the plastic cladding for the passenger seat is broken. I called the customer care to get this replaced. They got back to me saying that since this is a plastic part, its not covered under warranty and I need to pay for it. Now why would I want to pay for a part that is of such low quality and thats broken within 6 months of usage. I conveyed the same to the engineer and they promised to check with the higher ups and get back to me.

This is one of the biggest concerns I have with e2o right from the beginning. How long will the parts last? Right now the car has got only the standard 3 years warranty. At the time of purchase I was told by Sireesh Auto, Madiwala Sales person, that I will get the 2 years extended warranty too. That's something that I have been waiting from the time of purchase and been following up with them. Unfortunately I get only false excuses.

Since I intend to keep the car at least for 5 years, I am thinking to buy the extended warranty on my own to at least have a piece of mind.

Has anyone else taken the extended warranty?

[hkollar]

Originally Posted by samabhi

After 6 months of usage, the plastic cladding for the passenger seat is broken. I called the customer care to get this replaced. They got back to me saying that since this is a plastic part, its not covered under warranty and I need to pay for it. Now why would I want to pay for a part that is of such low quality and thats broken within 6 months of usage. I conveyed the same to the engineer and they promised to check with the higher ups and get back to me.

This is one of the biggest concerns I have with e2o right from the beginning. How long will the parts last? Right now the car has got only the standard 3 years warranty. At the time of purchase I was told by Sireesh Auto, Madiwala Sales person, that I will get the 2 years extended warranty too. That's something that I have been waiting from the time of purchase and been following up with them. Unfortunately I get only false excuses.

Since I intend to keep the car at least for 5 years, I am thinking to buy the extended warranty on my own to at least have a piece of mind.

Has anyone else taken the extended warranty?

Yes, I did. Paid some 16K+ for that. It only covers the battery though, not rest of the car.


And YES! The biggest concern about E2O is the poor quality of the fixtures in the car. It feels extremely cheap inside. Plastics, seat quality, ICE, suspension etc. are not good quality, and may not last long without breakage, rattling noise. And don't know if they will fix it right in after sales...

Really pathetic of Mahindra Reva... All it'd have cost them to provide better quality fit-finish was perhaps 50K-1Lakh more, but it would've put much smile on people's face than their stupid non-transparent discounts.