[a4anurag]

Originally Posted by adarsh76

We cannot really judge the performance of a car from the TD model. It would most probably be ill maintained.

IMO, for any customer who is in the market for buying ANY car had to rely on the TD vehicles abstinence at the dealership. We can't request to get a well-maintained customers vehicle or may be a new car off the yard just to be due the car runs well.

The real test for ANY car is the 'TD vehicle'. Reason why -- that car undergoes the highest torture, changes millions hands, gets to witness a wide spectrum of drivers and driving style so the car that holds good even after the "TD car" label will be good when it reaches the real owner (single hand) who won't abuse the car to its limits.

Originally Posted by DoctorKK

I can't agree with this statement at all. After doing a 650 Kms ride over the last weekend with five adults, an infant and the boot almost loaded, the city was a champion on the highway. Overtaking was with ease and I never felt short of power even in difficult overtaking conditions on Kerala highways.

You can't generalise and write-off the opinion one has given over the City and the Ciaz.

Your requirements and his requirements could be different; The roads you travel vs the road he takes could be different; The feel good factor will be differing from person to person; Ways to judge the car so as to decide whether to purchase it not differs so what I mean to say is, there is no harm in saying Ciaz is better than City or City is better than the Ciaz. It is just one's own opinion and decision.

Originally Posted by DoctorKK

In the end, as was said in Dhoom, 'Tezi goli mein nahi , chalane wale mein hoti h'!! ( Speed of the bullet lies in the hands of the shooter and not the bullet itself)

Hope you aren't indirectly pointing out at the OP.

Originally Posted by rambo1o1

I feel most people cant fathom a Honda owner moving to a maruti, well times have changed and Honda aint what it used to be. I am sure if the diesel Ciaz came with a Toyota badge or even a Honda/vw badge it wouldn't be looked down upon as what it is currently getting.

Spot-on. C & D-Segment from Maruti Suzuki (Read Kizashi) aren't accepted well in the market thanks to the 'budget car' image it has made for itself.

AFAIK, the Ciaz is a good effort to break the ice to enter the segment. This car drives well and looks good too, no doubt about it.

Originally Posted by rambo1o1

so for his needs the ciaz is just fine, definatly NOT! a downgrade to the Honda city in any manner.

Honda City for me was a bit disappointment when it is compared to its older generations be it on VFM, pricing, engine. Looks are still good except for those alloys.

Happy mile munching with the Ciaz. Congratulations.

[DoctorKK]

Originally Posted by a4anurag

You can't generalise and write-off the opinion one has given over the City and the Ciaz. .

Well if you read my post again ,in no way did I generalize things nor did I ridicule the ciaz. I just said that I did not agree with the observations of the fellow member as far as the performance of city was concerned. He said it was 'Dead' and I still don't agree with his opinion. Yes if he is into racing etc city won't do him good but for a normal highway drive with some fast driving and overtaking city is no less than other cars. Please take my opinion in the right perspective and don't draw your own conclusions.
I am in no way offended by anyone's opinion,but have the right to disagree. I am very satisfied with my city as of now(like thousands of other owners) and loving each and every mile I am spending with it ☺
Ciaz in itself is a good car and I am planning to take a test drive soon 😊

[sun_king]

Originally Posted by rambo1o1

And since most of our driving covers the highway of Goa(rarely do we face start stop traffic) the Ciaz was better in this aspect though the Honda will be a bit better in traffic compared to the Ciaz.

Any clue on why this is so? Both vehicles have the same maximum torque at the same RPM with the City having 10 horses more than the Ciaz. So in theory, an experienced driver should be able to edge ahead of the Ciaz with the City.

PS: In this context you can consider me unbiased, I hate all diesels equally (except the Cruze) .

[adarsh76]

Originally Posted by rambo1o1

The TD vehicle was just 6k km old and i specifically asked the SA if that particular car had a problem but he responded with a honest answer of this being the nature of the iDTEC.

Doubts on what the SA (Sales Adviser) said. Do not rely any time on the SA for the technical aspects of the car especially the performance factor. Instead we should talk to the service adviser. If you see the 'Autocar' magazine, it shows that the City Diesel's acceleration timings from 40 -100 kph at 4th gear is in fact ahead than the Petrol Manual City and even the Verna Manual Diesel. This is the gear and speed where people could overtake on highways. But where it loses out is the acceleration from 0 - 60, 0 - 100 and also 20 - 80 kph in 3rd gear (need to confirm this 3rd gear acceleration). So, that's why I said TD cars cannot be relied for this when you said overtaking is a pain in City Diesel.

Yes, as somebody said in the post, TD cars are the only ones which we can do a test drive. However, we can get only an overview of the performance and comfort factors from the TD cars but definitely not a complete picture. Especially when we compare cars of different manufacturers either all should be equally well maintained or ill maintained. Since this is not practically possible, it would be good to professional reviews too from TBHP or others like Autocar.

[pdma]

The already pricy car is just going to get more heavier on the pocket , thanks to the expiry of the excise concessions.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...w/45760974.cms

This is sad news as now the mid variants will cross the 10 L base price inviting additional taxes.

[tejas08]

Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain

Pressing the clutch will obviously make the vehicle slow down, irrespective of whether cruise is engaged or not. You de-link the engine and the transmission by pressing the clutch, power is not transmitted and friction does its work!

If you use the clutch and accelerator to manage speed with cruise engaged, you are only causing avoidable clutch wear. Use the + and - buttons to play with the speed, along with CANCEL and RESUME.

I didn't realize the Damage Part. But having said that, its as such not my practice to use the Clutch during Cruise Control to Slow down. Most of the times I just Cancel the Cruise Control and Resume again when I get the chance. The + and - buttons are not really that useful except some use of the + button when you want to increase the speed seeing that the road is empty ahead for a long long way. Its takes a fair amount of time to increase or decrease the speed using these buttons.

[Carpainter]

Originally Posted by rambo1o1

I am sure if the diesel Ciaz came with a Toyota badge or even a Honda/vw badge it wouldn't be looked down upon as what it is currently getting.

Well choosing a vehicle (and spouse) is absolutely a personal decision in my opinion. Others can only suggest but cannot decide on one's behalf. That said, even though I respect your choice of car, I cannot agree with your above statement.

There are so many examples where all these brands like Toyota,VW and of course Honda launched vehicles with underpowered engines and we at Team-bhp did complain about them. VW Polo 1.2L 3 cylinder petrol, Toyota Corolla diesel, Honda City diesel etc. to name a few.

My point is Ciaz is a well rounded package no doubt but it should have had a better diesel engine as well. I'm not going into the comparison of whether Ciaz diesel is better than City diesel or not since I haven't driven the Ciaz yet. All I can say is that for a car of its size, it should have had a 100+bhp engine to make the ride even smoother. Maruti have not had success at this segment of the market and now with Ciaz they have genuinely tried to break that jink. So I believe they could have done a bit more. Lack of their own diesel engine could be the reason.

[a4anurag]

Originally Posted by DoctorKK

He said it was 'Dead' and I still don't agree with his opinion. Yes if he is into racing etc city won't do him good but for a normal highway drive with some fast driving and overtaking city is no less than other cars.

I feel the 100PS motor on the City doesn't give that kick which one expects psychologically. The power delivery is more sort of linear with not much enthusiasm displayed when the right foot is buried.

Originally Posted by DoctorKK

Please take my opinion in the right perspective and don't draw your own conclusions.

You seem to have taken my post with personal offence. I haven't meant anything of such and if my post felt offensive to you, I'm sorry for it.

[harpreetsubhi]

Originally Posted by rambo1o1

I really dint mean to offend you or any diesel city owners.

I feel most people cant fathom a Honda owner moving to a maruti, well times have changed and Honda aint what it used to be.I am sure if the diesel Ciaz came with a Toyota badge or even a Honda/vw badge it wouldn't be looked down upon as what it is currently getting.

The city diesel no doubt gives excellent mileage, has no lag and is very derivable but the extra kick wasn't present in the test drive vehicle which was just 6k km run .And since most of our driving covers the highway of Goa(rarely do we face start stop traffic) the Ciaz was better in this aspect though the Honda will be a bit better in traffic compared to the Ciaz.
Even the SA, who was the same guy when we booked our old city agreed with our displeasure of the diesel and said that many prospective diesel customers were put off by the noise and outright performance, many decided to change to the petrol version and hence in Goa the petrol version outsells the diesel by a good margin( don't know how far this is true but with cheaper petrol prices, it could be true)




The TD vehicle was just 6k km old and i specifically asked the SA if that particular car had a problem but he responded with a honest answer of this being the nature of the iDTEC.
The new Verna will mostly be a face lift, i really am not sure if they are going to improve the rear seat and legroom by a big margin.But dad really doesn't seem to be interested in a Hyundai and within 3 to 4 years he would love to upgrade to a D segment car before he finally retires, so for his needs the ciaz is just fine, definatly NOT! a downgrade to the Honda city in any manner.

If i was given a car within this budget, i would go preowned with a laura , jetta, cruze or if brand new, maybe a vento tdi/tsi (maintenance be dammed )or a fiesta

cheers.

Though I have never driven CIAZ, but I fully agree to your statement that City really misses the kick. I have been driving City-D for more than 10K kms now and I fully agree to that. Being a diesel vehicle it is really no where near the petrol counterparts ( as expected ) but definitely it misses the punch. I have driven Swift VDi before I switched to City-D and that lag of kick was very much prominent to me. If in July 2014, CIAZ would have been available I would have definitely considered it. But that said City is fantastically comfortable and superb on mileage - mine one gives 24 KMPL.

Another point I agree to you is on Cabin Noise. Though it was my choice to go for Honda City over the competition and I had noticed this noise at the time of TD but truly I'm really disappointed with the grunting engine noise inside the cabin. I never realised at that point that it becomes such a pain point when you drive 70kms a day.

[themonster]

Originally Posted by a4anurag

I feel the 100PS motor on the City doesn't give that kick which one expects psychologically. The power delivery is more sort of linear with not much enthusiasm displayed when the right foot is buried.

Originally Posted by harpreetsubhi

Though I have never driven CIAZ, but I fully agree to your statement that City really misses the kick. I have been driving City-D for more than 10K kms now and I fully agree to that. Being a diesel vehicle it is really no where near the petrol counterparts ( as expected ) but definitely it misses the punch. I have driven Swift VDi before I switched to City-D and that lag of kick was very much prominent to me. If in July 2014, CIAZ would have been available I would have definitely considered it. But that said City is fantastically comfortable and superb on mileage - mine one gives 24 KMPL.

Another point I agree to you is on Cabin Noise. Though it was my choice to go for Honda City over the competition and I had noticed this noise at the time of TD but truly I'm really disappointed with the grunting engine noise inside the cabin. I never realised at that point that it becomes such a pain point when you drive 70kms a day.

Originally Posted by Carpainter

Well choosing a vehicle (and spouse) is absolutely a personal decision in my opinion. Others can only suggest but cannot decide on one's behalf. That said, even though I respect your choice of car, I cannot agree with your above statement.

There are so many examples where all these brands like Toyota,VW and of course Honda launched vehicles with underpowered engines and we at Team-bhp did complain about them. VW Polo 1.2L 3 cylinder petrol, Toyota Corolla diesel, Honda City diesel etc. to name a few.

My point is Ciaz is a well rounded package no doubt but it should have had a better diesel engine as well. I'm not going into the comparison of whether Ciaz diesel is better than City diesel or not since I haven't driven the Ciaz yet. All I can say is that for a car of its size, it should have had a 100+bhp engine to make the ride even smoother. Maruti have not had success at this segment of the market and now with Ciaz they have genuinely tried to break that jink. So I believe they could have done a bit more. Lack of their own diesel engine could be the reason.

I agree that the Diesel Honda City does lack that "kick" which other diesel cars in the segment have, or even segments below (eg. MSIL Swift). The probable reason for this is the reduced/inexsistent turbo lag and an ECU tunning for better mileage. Newer cars are now more focused on mileage rather than outright power. the newer facelifts of the cruze, swift, etc have lesser turbo lag, for better in-city drivability; compared to their respective outgoing car. (It has been mentioned in the TeamBHP official review for the 2nd generation Swift and the recent Cruze facelift)
Link to TeamBHP news article for the recent refreshed swift: http://www.team-bhp.com/news/refresh...khs?model=Mg==

In my opinion, both the Ciaz and the City are good cars and both have their pluses and minuses. I feel, the most biggest advantage for the Ciaz is that it runs on the Fiat-souced 1.3 Multijet and that there is a MSIL showroom/service centre at almost every other town. Another thing is that any road side mechanic maybe able to help you, if you encounter a problem. (I am not saying that the Ciaz or the City has any problems or is problem-prone, but if a problem is encountered in the Ciaz, it should be easier to fix). Another additional point to be mentioned, the Ciaz has a slightly more ARAI mileage than the diesel City (26.3kmpl vs 26kmpl)
Other small but significant things, each car has its own plus; like the City having a sunroof and rather soft leather seats; and the Ciaz having pretty sweet ambient lighting, bigger and better looking alloys with wider rubber, projector headlamps and better ground clearance.

PS: I have test driven the diesel City and I own a petrol City; and I have not driven neither the diesel or petrol Ciaz. I felt the petrol City has the "kick" which one looks for (mentioned by GTO in the official review) which is not present in the diesel city.
If it is of any value, the diesel City which i test drove was a VX variant, and i test drove the car in March 2014, and it had about 2500kms on the ODO.

The petrol City which I own has driven about 20,000kms in the past 9 months (purchased in March 2014). After the 3rd free service (done at 10000kms), the car felt like it had some more eagerness to move forward/ a better "kick" as some would put it.

Originally Posted by sun_king

Any clue on why this is so? Both vehicles have the same maximum torque at the same RPM with the City having 10 horses more than the Ciaz. So in theory, an experienced driver should be able to edge ahead of the Ciaz with the City.

PS: In this context you can consider me unbiased, I hate all diesels equally (except the Cruze) .

The Ciaz is lighter than the city, (ZDI(O) weights 1105kg; City VX Diesel weights 1200+kg) hence power to weight ratio is more and can be appreciated.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by a4anurag

I feel the 100PS motor on the City doesn't give that kick which one expects psychologically. The power delivery is more sort of linear with not much enthusiasm displayed when the right foot is buried.

I don't think it's just the lack of turbo lag at play here. IIRC- Autocar India had given a 0-100 timing of around 12.9x for the diesel Ciaz, while it is around 14.7x for the diesel city.

That is quite a significant difference, and not just a lack of turbo surge. Clueless with the reasons though!

A bit OT- Did any of our members dyno a diesel City / Amaze? Wanted to take a look at that torque curve.

[adarsh76]

Originally Posted by harpreetsubhi

Being a diesel vehicle it is really no where near the petrol counterparts ( as expected ) but definitely it misses the punch.

Another point I agree to you is on Cabin Noise. Though it was my choice to go for Honda City over the competition and I had noticed this noise at the time of TD but truly I'm really disappointed with the grunting engine noise inside the cabin. I never realised at that point that it becomes such a pain point when you drive 70kms a day.

I always thought that if the Verna's Diesel engine with both manual and automatic were plonked in the City, it would have been a killer combination.

When I took the initial test drive of the Diesel City, the SA told me the noise is prominent because it is an all aluminium engine. However, on the positive side the aluminium engine is expected to last longer than other diesel engines. The under body coating can deaden the sound to a certain limit. However, as per many reviews the insulation for Diesel City needs to improve.

The CVT do have noise filtered into the cabin during quick overtaking. However, the noise is never irritating (for me) and I find it actually exciting. Sounds like a sports car engine.

[themonster]

Originally Posted by Carpainter

Actually I'm going to book City V MT petrol tomorrow. After a lot of dilemma I've decided to go for petrol mainly because of the fun to drive factor. BTW, you seem to have been getting good mileage from your car. Most of the city owners on this forum and outside said they are getting somewhere around 10-11kmpl. May be you are a very sedate driver.

Regarding tyre, do you think that insisting the SA for Michelin tyre will help? I mean do they have any control on what car and what tyre will be allotted to a particular customer. I'm asking all this because I was thinking if I get Michelin stock tyres then I might not go for an upgrade right now.

Hello!
Sorry for the late reply.
Thanks, but I do have some outbrusts of speed and power at times.

Regarding tyres, no use speaking with the SA; just keep your fingers crossed. If you do wish, you can exchange the stock tyres as soon as you get them and get a good buy-back value and you can buy Michelins in stock size or upsize to 195/60 R15.

The i-VTEC engine does need some running in; but after the 3rd free service, it's more "fun to drive" as the engine fully opens up after the oil change.


I wanted to mention this earlier, but I kept forgetting about it. I had been to Dubai, UAE a couple of months back and I had seen many 2014 Citys. Most of them were the mid variant automatics (no alloys); although while passing though the showroom I did see a fully loaded top variant. The VX variant doesn't seem to look any different than the model available in Malayasia/Thailand (same alloys, ICE, etc) but the mid variant looked very different.
The SV variant was a Urban Titanium Shade, and had a painted front grill which looked like a glossy Black Pearl finish. It also had black inserts in the headlights.Other Features were same 3.5" ICE, ECON button, 175/65 R15 Bridgestone tyres, etc. Sorry I didn't take the photo at that time. If I get my hands on a photo, I will upload it.

[Carpainter]

Originally Posted by themonster

Hello!
Sorry for the late reply.
Thanks, but I do have some outbrusts of speed and power at times.

Regarding tyres, no use speaking with the SA; just keep your fingers crossed. If you do wish, you can exchange the stock tyres as soon as you get them and get a good buy-back value and you can buy Michelins in stock size or upsize to 195/60 R15.

The i-VTEC engine does need some running in; but after the 3rd free service, it's more "fun to drive" as the engine fully opens up after the oil change.


I wanted to mention this earlier, but I kept forgetting about it. I had been to Dubai, UAE a couple of months back and I had seen many 2014 Citys. Most of them were the mid variant automatics (no alloys); although while passing though the showroom I did see a fully loaded top variant. The VX variant doesn't seem to look any different than the model available in Malayasia/Thailand (same alloys, ICE, etc) but the mid variant looked very different.
The SV variant was a Urban Titanium Shade, and had a painted front grill which looked like a glossy Black Pearl finish. It also had black inserts in the headlights.Other Features were same 3.5" ICE, ECON button, 175/65 R15 Bridgestone tyres, etc. Sorry I didn't take the photo at that time. If I get my hands on a photo, I will upload it.

Thanks for your helpful suggestions. Hopefully the car will arrive at the dealership in third week of Jan or so they say. Waiting to see what rubber it comes with and then I'll decide.

I wonder what is stopping Honda from giving us the same alloys used in their Malaysia version. City is not a cheaply priced car so the additional cost of that alloy (should not be a lot more than the current one) is not the reason I guess. They launched City here in India first because this market is important for that car. They have been selling in highest number here. Yet this detrimental attitude is not acceptable at all.

[RavSam]

Hope this helps.