[pixantz]

Originally Posted by sathya_g_m

Honda is moving away from quality.

It will be sad for them to keep getting bad credits on the quality.

I think Honda is giving the Indian customer what he/she wants. Just look at the product they were giving us before the latest City. Solid reliable cars with awesome driving dynamics and rock solid reliability, great mileage. And what did we customers do? All of us started going ga-ga over the cheaper segment counterparts and their "cheaper" "creature" comforts or so called great "feature list" , at CHEAPER sticker prices. Dunno about the average customer but personally, as an enthusiast, I see that as a slap on all manufacturers who try to give us a BETTER AUTOMOBILE rather than a feature list race contender. So Honda in a swift move matched all the demands and gave us what we technically wanted. Feature list and all. I really appreciate the speed at which they did that. And they had a winner, and everyone is happy and the sales chart is doing great for Honda too.

But was that enough? No! We wanted to have our cake and eat it too. Forgetting that there are no free lunches.

The only sad thing is Honda kind of compromised the very element that makes up what we looked up to Honda as a brand for.

[we_pull]

Fellow members,

I have just bought a new V MT D. First time city and diesel owner, and long time follower on Team-BHP. And looking forward to pen the ownership experience in a few weeks of driving.

Pardon my ignorance, but can someone please help me with the following:

1) I see a low engine temperature symbol (a blue thermometer) when starting in the morning, and after 8-10 hours in the evening. This goes away after a minute or so. Is this normal?

2) Someone mentioned, since this a diesel engine, one must idle it after firing on and before shutting off. Is this correct and what is the best way of doing so?

3) Is it not OK, to switch on the AC as soon as one starts in the morning or should one wait. In my previous petrol car, i switched it on, soon after staring the engine?

4) What precautions can one take for this engine?

Apologies, if these questions do not belong here or are too naive. But looking forward to your guidance.

[OwnersPride]

Originally Posted by we_pull

Fellow members,

I have just bought a new V MT D. First time city and diesel owner, and long time follower on Team-BHP. And looking forward to pen the ownership experience in a few weeks of driving.

Pardon my ignorance, but can someone please help me with the following:

1) I see a low engine temperature symbol (a blue thermometer) when starting in the morning, and after 8-10 hours in the evening. This goes away after a minute or so. Is this normal?

2) Someone mentioned, since this a diesel engine, one must idle it after firing on and before shutting off. Is this correct and what is the best way of doing so?

3) Is it not OK, to switch on the AC as soon as one starts in the morning or should one wait. In my previous petrol car, i switched it on, soon after staring the engine?

4) What precautions can one take for this engine?

Apologies, if these questions do not belong here or are too naive. But looking forward to your guidance.

we_pull, I tried to answer your questions. Others can add/correct as appropriate.

1A) It is normal. Blue indicates that the engine has not reached the optimal temp yet. When it does, it goes off. Usually, its advised to drive the car in low rpm until this happens.

2A) i-DTec is a turbocharged engine. Hence, people recommend the idling rule for such engines. Please see below article.
http://www.team-bhp.com/tech-stuff/i...o-charged-cars

3A) I usually turn the AC on after the engine thermometer symbol goes off. Mine is an i-VTec. It might be related to the load. Others can advise better on this.

4A) Following the idling rule, driving in low rpms until engine reaches required temp and follow running in until may be the first 2k to 3K kms are some that I can think of. It is also better to get acquainted with the maintenance schedule details given in the owners manual.

[adik1984]

Originally Posted by we_pull

Apologies, if these questions do not belong here or are too naive. But looking forward to your guidance.

I own a SV I-Dtec Honda city since Feburary 2014, 48000 Kms on the Odo. I never follwed the Run in period advice , Idling thumb rule. In modern cars, i guess it is no more required . However, many generalize.

One rule which i followed for first 500 Kms, was not to needle down more than 2k RPM. Once you know the car and she knows you, there you go!

[we_pull]

Originally Posted by adik1984

I own a SV I-Dtec Honda city since Feburary 2014, 48000 Kms on the Odo. I never follwed the Run in period advice , Idling thumb rule. In modern cars, i guess it is no more required . However, many generalize.

One rule which i followed for first 500 Kms, was not to needle down more than 2k RPM. Once you know the car and she knows you, there you go!

Wow, you have some running and thanks very much for sharing the experience. How has been the overall ownership?

[a4anurag]

Originally Posted by we_pull

1) I see a low engine temperature symbol (a blue thermometer) when starting in the morning, and after 8-10 hours in the evening. This goes away after a minute or so. Is this normal?

2) Someone mentioned, since this a diesel engine, one must idle it after firing on and before shutting off. Is this correct and what is the best way of doing so?

3) Is it not OK, to switch on the AC as soon as one starts in the morning or should one wait.

4) What precautions can one take for this engine?

First of all, Congratulations on getting the City!

1) That is result of digital age - Those blue lights take place of the good old analogue temperature gauge. The blue light will stay lit till the engine reaches the operating temperature.

What you notice is absolutely normal.

2) It is good - if the idling rule is followed. More emphasis is given for diesel engine cars as they have a turbocharger that requires cooling down via oil circulation before switching Off the engine.

What should be done is, after the drive mainly high RPM drives (read highway trips) let the engine idle for 30-40 seconds before switching off. At those speeds the turbo spools up generating excess heat. So to preserve it and prolong it's reliability the idling rule has been brought to light. Some follow, some don't. Not compulsory but good practice of followed.

3) Yes, you can.

4) Not sure if others will agree but I feel it is best to change the engine oil and oil filter after the first 1000 kms. In both my Ritz D and Swift D, I changed the oil at 1K, 5K, 10K and then on as per manufacturer recommendation.

I clock 110 kms a day where I decided to follow the run - in procedure for 10K kms in my Swift ZDi. The car is at 54K in almost 1.7 months.

-- No sudden bursts in acceleration or hard braking; Never maintain constant speeds for long and continue throttle variation.

[adik1984]

Originally Posted by we_pull

Wow, you have some running and thanks very much for sharing the experience. How has been the overall ownership?

Pretty good , 2 Months back my daily commute use to be around 140 Kms each day
I recently shifted my base to another company, the engine is at peace these days. 40Kms to and fro.
Well, I like the driving experience very much. I use to own sx4 , maruti stands no chance in comparison to Honda cars for the driving feel.

No doubts that I booked a Honda Jazz Diesel as well , a fortnight before. Waiting for the baby city eagerly

[geotracks]

Originally Posted by pixantz

All of us started going ga-ga over the cheaper segment counterparts and their "cheaper" "creature" comforts or so called great "feature list" , at CHEAPER sticker prices. Dunno about the average customer but personally, as an enthusiast, I see that as a slap on all manufacturers who try to give us a BETTER AUTOMOBILE rather than a feature list race contender. So Honda in a swift move matched all the demands and gave us what we technically wanted. Feature list and all. I really appreciate the speed at which they did that. And they had a winner, and everyone is happy and the sales chart is doing great for Honda too.

Must be an issue with the QA / QC in India. I am sure the same Honda cars (City, Jazz etc.) sold in SE Asia or Middle East may not be facing such quality issues.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by pixantz

I think Honda is giving the Indian customer what he/she wants. Just look at the product they were giving us before the latest City. Solid reliable cars with awesome driving dynamics and rock solid reliability, great mileage. And what did we customers do? All of us started going ga-ga over the cheaper segment counterparts and their "cheaper" "creature" comforts or so called great "feature list" , at CHEAPER sticker prices. Dunno about the average customer but personally, as an enthusiast, I see that as a slap on all manufacturers who try to give us a BETTER AUTOMOBILE rather than a feature list race contender. So Honda in a swift move matched all the demands and gave us what we technically wanted. Feature list and all. I really appreciate the speed at which they did that. And they had a winner, and everyone is happy and the sales chart is doing great for Honda too.

But was that enough? No! We wanted to have our cake and eat it too. Forgetting that there are no free lunches.

The only sad thing is Honda kind of compromised the very element that makes up what we looked up to Honda as a brand for.

This 'no free lunches' logic is totally flawed in my humble opinion. Please allow me to explain with the same example- lunch.

I go to a premium restaurant, one that is known for quality food. I pay 20% premium compared to a reputed neighbouring shop and opt for meals, only to be served rice and pickle and pappad- hot and well cooked. I asked the owner why I am being served only these items and why I should come there again when the competitor serves a lot more dishes at a lower price and with good quality. So the owner runs back to the kitchen and comes up with some side dishes. They seemed to be stale and I had an upset stomach after eating the meal, but I appreciated his quick response to my demand. On the way back from the hospital, I stopped at the hotel for giving feedback about the stale food, and he says- there are no free lunches.

Here the shop owner is Honda. The dishless meal (cooked with quality) is the previous version, the stale dish is the build quality and design flaws and the hospitalised customers are the ones who are suffering and even had to sell their cars.

1. No one asked for free lunches. Honda City is more expensive than any other car in its class.

2. You are complaining you liked the well cooked rice they served along with pickle and pappad.

The fact is, whether it's with less features or with more features that don't have quality and goes stale in the stomach- the customer is the one that loses out after paying such a heavy premium for the Honda badge.

3. We all say "God bless competition". But you are blaming competition for Honda's downfall. If a competitor is offering full meals with sweet that is cooked with quality at lesser price than that of roti-subji alone at a competing shop - which would you prefer?

And the competition is still able to offer features with quality at a cheaper price.

4. You are blaming the people 'who wanted to eat their cake, forgetting there are no free lunches'. No one is asking for free lunch here. They are expecting the vehicles bought with hard earned money to be reliable. There are people here who had to sell their cars, who had multiple niggles, who had water leakage issues multiple times etc.

Not even a sweet was given free to them with the meal. See the prices of the OE accessories.

5. You are appreciating their quick response. But what good is the response speed when the food that was served later was stale? The Bluetooth in SV variants are a pure design flaw, there have been owners who had parts like mirrors, dead pedals, rear view camera etc fall off while using. Moreover, Honda also seemed to have skipped road testing for the Indian version!

I would humbly remind that such posts really don't get the brand nor its fans anywhere. Blaming the competition and the buyers for the QC mistakes made by a company is not the right thing to do IMO. There was a time when the top end City was barebones loaded and still costlier than the competition. It changed with the entry of fluidic Verna. Now there is a fall in quality. That will change only if critics and fans of the brand voice their opinions.

The market (us) are the main losers if a company doesn't mend ways.

Note- The moderators have officially removed "Honda's reliability and fuss-free ownership experience" from the "What you'll like" section of the review.

[rockporiom]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Note- The moderators have officially removed "Honda's reliability and fuss-free ownership experience" from the "What you'll like" section of the review.

well said, CrAzY dRiVeR. What Honda has done is basically served a half cooked/ half baked dish. I guess they wanted to push out the product ASAP so that it launches before some of the competitive launches. Well, they did get the first mover advantage but at the cost of quality and reliability.

Just saw that the fuss free ownership experience has been removed. The what you won't like should consist of the point about consistent niggle as reported by 4th gen owners.

[Leoshashi]

With due respect to all owners here, If I remember correctly, no test mules or scoops were reported anywhere. So does that point towards less or no road tests from Honda, which can be one of the many reasons behind these niggles in the 4th gen City?? Food for thought!!

Regards
Shashi

[tejas08]

I have been reading all the arguments that are being put forward for and against Honda with regards to the quality of the the New Gen City.

I voiced my opinion earlier on the Honda City niggles thread and doing it again. While I write down some things in favour of Honda, I would still like to repeat that even I have not been spared from the niggles of Honda City. I have had some share of the niggles too.

The point in favour of Honda that I want to put forward is that they have been diligent in solving the problems (At least my problems) whenever a problem has been reported by me. I have had the following problems and their solutions written in front of it:

• Left Rear Door Beading giving away - This was fixed the first time I reported during the 3 months service. I am in the 17th Month of Ownership and never has the issued resurfaced.
• Alternator Grinding Noise - This was probably the biggest nerve-wracking issue that I faced. I have visited the ASC at least 6 times for this issue. Again in Honda's defence, there was no clear solution to it. Some BHPians problem got resolved just by changing the Alternator Belt, some by changing the Alternator / Idler Bearings and mine by changing the Alternator itself. So really, can somebody make what the real problem is here. No!
• Rattling Noise from Front Panels - I went mad when I started hearing Rattling Noises in my City about 3-4 months back from the Dashboard. The culprit. ME! I had kept a couple of pencil cells in the small ticket holder kind of slot provided below the Right-Side AC vent. I completely forgot about it. One day I opened up to take out the spare bulb and kept the pencil cells in the Arm-Rest box. The Right side Rattling sound was gone. Now the Left Side. I have a Emergency Glass Breaker / Seat-Belt Cutter kept in the Glove Box. The same thing happened here. It's not the panels that were rattling but the Emergency hammer that was rattling in the glove box while going over bad roads.
• ABC pedal vibrations above 2500 RPM - At first I felt this was abnormal. Since this is my first car, I do not know what is normal and what is not in terms of pulsations (Not vibrations, at first I used the wrong word, Pulsations and vibrations make a huge difference). I realized this when I started taking Test drives of multiple vehicles couple of months ago. I took TD of about 10 vehicles in a month's time. Except the Elite i20, I haven't been able to find any vehicle that does not have it. I TDed the Honda City too from another showroom.

One issue that I am yet to report to the ASC is minor squeaking sound somewhere from left rear end, possibly from the Suspension which has started about 2 Months back. Haven't had time to go the ASC.

The rattling sounds that some of them have been reporting could be due to the driving style / road conditions etc. too. I too drive aggressively at times, but on bad roads, if one starts driving a sedan like an SUV, you are bound to have this kind trouble.

Sure the quality must have definitely gone down. I cannot comment on that since my interest in Automobiles started just 3 years ago. I do not have any idea about the earlier gen Honda cars. But give Honda some time to find the right balance between Quality, Safety and Features.

Hyundai took it's time to find the right balance and came out with the Elite i20 and Hyundai Creta. So will Honda.

P.S. - The largest manufacturer in India MSIL too haven't found the right balance as of yet with regards to Quality, Features and Safety.

[we_pull]

Gentlemen,

Mt two cents - it took me about six months to decide which car to pick. I can most certainly say, that in the C2 segment in India, there is really no car, that can bring you a sense of closure post purchase. There is no single perfect car in this segment, which will tick all boxes. There is one which has the best power and mileage combination, but sour ownership and after sales experiences are aplenty. There is a one year old new entrant, which has a lot of things going for it, but looks and power wise stays behind, and the market is still not picking up, perhaps because of the badge. There is the erstwhile champion from Korea, which is showing age, and leaves a lot to look for at the rear bench. And then finally, there is City, which again has its share of issues. There is a high chance, that no buyer will go drastically wrong with any, but none will also bring that elusive sense of having it all - just my humble opinion.

[pixantz]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

This 'no free lunches' logic is totally flawed in my humble opinion. Please allow me to explain with the same example- lunch.



I go to a premium restaurant, one that is known for quality food. I pay 20% premium compared to a reputed neighbouring shop and opt for meals, only to be served rice and pickle and pappad- hot and well cooked. I asked the owner why I am being served only these items and why I should come there again when the competitor serves a lot more dishes at a lower price and with good quality. So the owner runs back to the kitchen and comes up with some side dishes. They seemed to be stale and I had an upset stomach after eating the meal, but I appreciated his quick response to my demand. On the way back from the hospital, I stopped at the hotel for giving feedback about the stale food, and he says- there are no free lunches.



Here the shop owner is Honda. The dishless meal (cooked with quality) is the previous version, the stale dish is the build quality and design flaws and the hospitalised customers are the ones who are suffering and even had to sell their cars.



1. No one asked for free lunches. Honda City is more expensive than any other car in its class.





I would humbly remind that such posts really don't get the brand nor its fans anywhere. Blaming the competition and the buyers for the QC mistakes made by a company is not the right thing to do IMO. There was a time when the top end City was barebones loaded and still costlier than the competition. It changed with the entry of fluidic Verna. Now there is a fall in quality. That will change only if critics and fans of the brand voice their opinions.

If nobody had asked for free lunches, the Indian 2014 Honda City would not have been in the state it is right now, is what I think. Only Honda can explain why reliability suddenly took a dive. I have never blamed anyone or any company for the fiasco though. Why Honda has acted in this way is better known to Honda. I'm stating the reliability before 2014 where I would have chosen the City over the Verna any day.

I humbly state that I have not anywhere vouched for the reliability of the 2014 City. I'd not buy it myself. Still, the sales charts say a lot. The Indian customer is not really ignorant to set the City charts on fire again. If you sir, think that the City was always overpriced and unreliable, it's your opinion and I have also stated mine likewise. There are still thousands who will continue to buy the City and the Verna too. To each his own brand. Personally, if I got out to buy this segment car, I'd go get myself a pre-owned i-vtec(the previous model) and be very happy.

And yes, if faults is all we want to discuss, then even VW and Skodas which charge a premium at every step of ownership have pathetic issues like consistently failing fuel-injectors, faulty electronics, bad sunroof issues, lousy ASCs, amazingly crappy sales people, and the likes. The City is miles ahead better than them, and then some.

[rockporiom]

Originally Posted by pixantz

And yes, if faults is all we want to discuss, then even VW and Skodas which charge a premium at every step of ownership have pathetic issues like consistently failing fuel-injectors, faulty electronics, bad sunroof issues, lousy ASCs, amazingly crappy sales people, and the likes. The City is miles ahead better than them, and then some.

German cars, reliability and cheap to own never go in the same paragraph let alone a sentence. Its not like people aren't complaining about VW's and skoda's, there are a lot of threads and posts about them. But when it comes to a Honda people have huge expectations from them due to the benchmarks that have been set by the previous generations.

Honda was able to sell cars in india for 15 years without a diesel engine. That says a lot about the respect the company has here. Would that have been the case with the current quality levels? I guess not.