[vsrivatsa]

I went ahead with the 30K Service and the Fuel Return Pipe Recall for the iDTEC versions of the car. Find more details at my Ownership Thread here: URL

[OwnersPride]

Fellow BHPians,

I have a Nov 2014 made City. Would like to know if there are any sun shades (for the rear windshield, rear windows etc.) that are provided as accessories now for the vehicle at the dealership level? If not, are there any after-market ones? I'm located in Hyderabad.

Feedback about the quality/ usage etc. from any owners who are using these would be appreciated.

Thanks.

[mxh]

Trying to get rid of the bad smell from my AC, I took out the cabin air filter today and cleaned it, wasn't too dirty though; just some random leaves and dust.

While trying to insert the white filter back into the slot I realized that it doesn't seem to be going in fully. It needs to be squeezed in and it gets distorted when the black plastic piece is fixed back. Can someone please confirm if that's the case with yours as well or am I doing something wrong? Somehow it doesn't look right to me. This is what the filter and black plastic piece look like. Tried inserting it back like 15 times then gave up. Also, what direction is the white filter in your car? When I took it out, the blank side was facing outwards and the Honda logo was on the other side.

[outdoorlover]

Can someone share their experiences with Honda Connect? I had received a notification from Honda a few months back about installing it but when I went to them after a gap of two months, I was told that Honda had changed their directive and it was being fixed only on cars sold in the recent few months. Should be a good device if one is being to track the vehicle as well as do some basic diagnostics.

[varunsangal]

Have a Honda City iDtec (10k on odo) shows a ~10% difference between average shown on MID vs tankful to tankful method. Tankful to tankful average being lower. On a couple of occasions both the readings have matched, mainly when filling outside Mumbai and once within Mumbai.

2 possibilities arise:
1. Honda City MID is not calibrated correctly.
2. All filling stations in Mumbai that i have tried short change to the order of 10%.

Am inclined towards #1 given the largely consistent nature of variation, thus the post on this thread.

Has anyone compared the fuel average displayed on the MID vs tankful to tankful on Honda City?

[keeprevving]

Originally Posted by varunsangal

2 possibilities arise:
1. Honda City MID is not calibrated correctly.
2. All filling stations in Mumbai that i have tried short change to the order of 10%.

Am inclined towards #1 given the largely consistent nature of variation, thus the post on this thread.

So am I. My 2012 Honda City's MID is too sensitive. It drops faster with some change in speeds (majorly at slow speeds), while takes a lot of time to rise even if one drives sedately. For e.g. from 14kmpl on MID, it drops easily to say 13.5kmpl (ultra-slow driving), but takes more time to climb up to 14kmpl again (sedate). The MID has its own mind when the car approaches a decline. It rises instantly.

I recently drove the new Baleno, and found that the MID works perfectly inline with driving styles. The rise and fall of MID figures is consistent, unlike in my City.

[tejas08]

Originally Posted by varunsangal

Have a Honda City iDtec (10k on odo) shows a ~10% difference between average shown on MID vs tankful to tankful method. Tankful to tankful average being lower. On a couple of occasions both the readings have matched, mainly when filling outside Mumbai and once within Mumbai.

2 possibilities arise:
1. Honda City MID is not calibrated correctly.
2. All filling stations in Mumbai that i have tried short change to the order of 10%.

Am inclined towards #1 given the largely consistent nature of variation, thus the post on this thread.

Has anyone compared the fuel average displayed on the MID vs tankful to tankful on Honda City?

Originally Posted by keeprevving

So am I. My 2012 Honda City's MID is too sensitive. It drops faster with some change in speeds (majorly at slow speeds), while takes a lot of time to rise even if one drives sedately. For e.g. from 14kmpl on MID, it drops easily to say 13.5kmpl (ultra-slow driving), but takes more time to climb up to 14kmpl again (sedate). The MID has its own mind when the car approaches a decline. It rises instantly.

Not sure why your experience is that way, but I have consistently got the difference between MID & Tankful to Tankful method as less than 3%. And I really mean consistently.

Some of the things I consistently do every time I fill in fuel.

1. 9 out of 10 times my Petrol Pump is fixed when I am inside City Limits.
2. The Fuel delivery into the vehicle is at the slowest speed. (Nozzle has three speed settings. I always insist the petrol pump guy on the slowest speed. The variations increase at higher speed of Fuel Delivery. I personally have seen that while comparing to the Tankful to Tankful method.
3. Petrol Fill up time is always early morning. (Lower the atmospheric temperature, better is the Fuel Density. Better Fuel Density means better average, although Marginal but does affect the FE)
4. Fill up fuel only upto Auto Cut-off only Strictly.

In fact, my first 10K Kms, I had not reset Trip B and was consistently inside 3% difference for the whole of 10K Kms. After 9999 Kms on Trip B, it resets to 0.0 and does not go to 10000 Kms.

For Diesel, you might want to check out some other petrol station. There could be a possibility of low grade Diesel Quality. Or there could be a possibility of some of the Fuel returning back in the fuel line (The Rubber hose) after filling up and you may be getting charged for that. The second part of the sentence is applicable for both Petrol and Diesel.

[varunsangal]

Originally Posted by tejas08

1. 9 out of 10 times my Petrol Pump is fixed when I am inside City Limits.
2. The Fuel delivery into the vehicle is at the slowest speed. (Nozzle has three speed settings. I always insist the petrol pump guy on the slowest speed. The variations increase at higher speed of Fuel Delivery. I personally have seen that while comparing to the Tankful to Tankful method.
3. Petrol Fill up time is always early morning. (Lower the atmospheric temperature, better is the Fuel Density. Better Fuel Density means better average, although Marginal but does affect the FE)
4. Fill up fuel only upto Auto Cut-off only Strictly.

Agree and am quite religious with #1,2,3. But not #1 ever since the 10% variation cropped up. Will try #2 as well.

Also, possibly try one the COCO pumps (read there is one in Kandivali), hopefully they should be honest and help eliminate one of the factors.

Originally Posted by keeprevving

The rise and fall of MID figures is consistent, unlike in my City.

The average FE figure on MID changes quickly in the first few km after trip meter reset, but rate of change should slow down as you add on kms on the trip meter. Should ideally not change for every incline on the road.

[geotracks]

For my 2012 Honda City VMT, consistent observation on tank full method is that I get around 225 to 235 kms exactly at the mid point on the fuel gauge. Of course I have been filling up to the brim after auto shut off at the gas station. One would imagine that the 2nd half with the same driving habit & similar traffic conditions, the empty mark would reach around 450+ km. But by around 375 - 400 kms the needle very fast reaches the "E" mark. Looks like the Honda City fuel tank shape may be 'narrower' at the bottom than on the 'top' side.

Also, as some others observed rightly, in slow moving traffic MID comes down very quickly but takes a long time to go back up. Also, if I stand stationary in a single place waiting and keep AC on (specially in summer months), the MID drops even faster. e.g. the MID reading could be say 13.8 kmpl but after around 10 - 15 minutes of standing in a place with AC on, it drops to like say 12.5 kmpl. With this the half way mark also reaches just after 200 kms or so, instead of regular 225+- kms. Once the MID is down to 12.yy thereafter even with sedate driving & good traffic conditions, it goes up very slowly. My inference is that the I-vtec 'drinks' gas when standing stationary with AC on.

The other problem with this standing in one place with AC on is, very frequent trips to the gas station as the "empty" mark approaches very fast. The tank of the City is small? Contrary to this if I do the same (standing in one place with AC on) with my Hyundai Getz, the fuel meter does not go down that fast. I think, Honda to increase mileage has given a 'smaller fuel tank'.

[mxh]

Originally Posted by varunsangal

Have a Honda City iDtec (10k on odo) shows a ~10% difference between average shown on MID vs tankful to tankful method. Tankful to tankful average being lower.

I see the difference too, however it is less than with your car. Yesterday evening, I filled petrol in my car by tankful to tankful method, it came to 8.07, while the trip meter showed 8.5. Which is a difference of around 5.3%. I always fill upto auto cut off and exit the car and supervise the whole process. BTW, I have a Honda City S which has the standard MID, not the advanced one. The calculation resets every time the trip meter is resetted.

Originally Posted by tejas08

1. The Fuel delivery into the vehicle is at the slowest speed. (Nozzle has three speed settings. I always insist the petrol pump guy on the slowest speed. The variations increase at higher speed of Fuel Delivery. I personally have seen that while comparing to the Tankful to Tankful method.
2. Petrol Fill up time is always early morning. (Lower the atmospheric temperature, better is the Fuel Density. Better Fuel Density means better average, although Marginal but does affect the FE)

#2 and 3 are listed under "debunking fuel myths" and hoaxes on various websites. Petrol/diesel being liquids hardly vary in density irrespective of temperature; certainly not enough to affect readings to the order of 10%. The storage tanks are located underground which act like a thermos and hardly change in temperature.
Take a look at these articles:
http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story....myths&referer=
http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/household/gastips.asp
http://www.hoax-slayer.com/spurious-...ing-tips.shtml
https://www.physicsforums.com/thread...-night.229741/

[GKMahajan]

Dear Friends,

I am going into a bit of maths! Please forgive me!!

There was this quiz in my childhood:
A guy buys a new motorcycle. He is told to keep it below 40 kmph till first service.
At the end of the one month period, he goes to the service station at 40 kmph.
After servicing, he is told that till the next servicing he should control the speed at 60 kmph.
So, he comes back home at 60 kmph.

What is his average speed for the trip to the service station?

The normal method used is add the speeds and divide by 2 - since the distances in both cases are same.
The answer comes as (40+60) / 2 = 50 kmph.

Let us check it out:
Let us say the distance is 240 km to the service station (I agree it is a ridiculous distance - but the number is convenient to use - please go with me!)
So at 40 kmph, he takes 6 hours to reach. At 60 kmph, he takes 4 hours to return home.
Total distance traveled, 480 km in total 10 hours. So average speed is 48 kmph!

You can try various combinations like 30kmph/70kmph/210km or 10kmph/90kmph/90km. The first method will always give you 50 kmph and the through calculation will give you 42 kmph or 18 kmph respectively. So, arithmetic average does not work. Always remember that you cannot take an average of 'rates'. Very similarly, taking average of km/lt for short distances is tricky. Also, you will notice that just like the lower speed (in the above examples) decides the final average, in the case of fuel consumption too, if you run at lower km/lt for a very short time or distance, your average drops. And - by the same logic - driving in fuel efficient way will increase the average very slowly.

I hope I have made the topic clear.

On a side note - while driving on routes like Pune - Ahmednagar or Ahmednagar - Aurangabad, I have come across many jeep type taxis traveling in the same direction. They speed up a lot (!) to overtake me. Then they stop to do 'pickup-drop' and then 'fly' again! In spite of driving at up to 50% higher speeds than me for short spurts, they reach the destination at the same time or later!!

Now let me add some more confusion to the topic!

Let us say that you are running at 100 kmph at 2000 rpm and using up 20 km /lt of fuel.
A bit of simple calculation gives a consumption of 41.7 micro liters per rotation of the engine!
Assuming this is being distributed across cylinders and/or valves, it is really really very small! At lower rpms, it will be even smaller. Obviously, the errors will become significant at lower rpms and/or at idling. Mind you - the real fuel consumption is not constant per stroke - as far as I know! Experts please feel free to correct me!

My experience with my 2015 Jazz V CVT - on highway and for speeds above 30 kmph the MID and tank-to-tank method give very accurate match. When I do bumper-to-bumper driving, there is a small difference. The difference varies according to the time spent idling. It varies from 0.2 to 1.0 kmpl. This is okay to me!

Feedback welcome.

Girish Mahajan

[varunsangal]

Originally Posted by geotracks

... But by around 375 - 400 kms the needle very fast reaches the "E" mark. Looks like the Honda City fuel tank shape may be 'narrower' at the bottom than on the 'top' side...

Would suppose this is because most cars use a float valve to measure quantity of fuel. Typically the valve would drop slowly initially and then drop faster as tank empties. Eventually the float valve would hang in air, the gauge showing empty.

Originally Posted by mxh

Take a look at these articles:
http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story....myths&referer=
http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/household/gastips.asp
http://www.hoax-slayer.com/spurious-...ing-tips.shtml
https://www.physicsforums.com/thread...-night.229741/

These articles agree that temperature does affect density, however effect is lessened as tanks are deep underground. We possibly need to add the 40+ degree summer to the mix and any cost cutting by the various filling stations by not digging deep enough.

So possibly not reject the purported advantage of an early morning fill outright.

Originally Posted by GKMahajan

...Also, you will notice that just like the lower speed (in the above examples) decides the final average, in the case of fuel consumption too, if you run at lower km/lt for a very short time or distance, your average drops. And - by the same logic - driving in fuel efficient way will increase the average very slowly.

The maths is a study in weighted average, so possibly entirely relevant here. Also, the higher average drop should be attributed to amount of gear changes required to cover a short distance. The slow uptake should be attributed to the fact that one needs to cover some distance to reach an efficient speed and then drive efficiently for a similar distance to improve the number.

Originally Posted by GKMahajan

My experience with my 2015 Jazz V CVT - on highway and for speeds above 30 kmph the MID and tank-to-tank method give very accurate match. When I do bumper-to-bumper driving, there is a small difference. The difference varies according to the time spent idling. It varies from 0.2 to 1.0 kmpl.

Would expect similar, however, given similar conditions (highway or city) the variation on my iDtec remains the same ~10%. The only few times it has been accurate is when I have stopped over for a refuel outside the city.

[GKMahajan]

Originally Posted by varunsangal

The maths is a study in weighted average, so possibly entirely relevant here. Also, the higher average drop should be attributed to amount of gear changes required to cover a short distance. The slow uptake should be attributed to the fact that one needs to cover some distance to reach an efficient speed and then drive efficiently for a similar distance to improve the number.

Would expect similar, however, given similar conditions (highway or city) the variation on my iDtec remains the same ~10%. The only few times it has been accurate is when I have stopped over for a refuel outside the city.

Dear varunsangal,

I am impressed! You actually read my 'boring' post! Thanks for reading and another thanks for the positive response...

Girish Mahajan

[varunsangal]

Originally Posted by GKMahajan

Dear varunsangal,

I am impressed! You actually read my 'boring' post! Thanks for reading and another thanks for the positive response...

Girish Mahajan

Lengthy but definitely not boring. This should be a definite start to figure out how the MID calculates the average FE. Would say weighted average would figure on the algorithm.

Wonder if there any any member who actually write the code for the MIDs, they would be able to shed more light on the topic.

[mxh]

Originally Posted by varunsangal

Lengthy but definitely not boring. This should be a definite start to figure out how the MID calculates the average FE. Would say weighted average would figure on the algorithm.

Wonder if there any any member who actually write the code for the MIDs, they would be able to shed more light on the topic.

I think it's actually very simple. I created some calculations in an excel sheet to illustrate. I've assumed multiple trips in the first 2 columns. As you can see the 2nd and 5th trips have the same km and mileage, but 2nd line has a far greater impact on cumulative mileage since it was while the tank was more full.