[deetjohn]

Originally Posted by slicvic

2 dimples on the RHS front door.
The LHS front door also has the same 2 dimples.

That looks sad. And it will be very evident on darker shades. A price to pay for the thin sheet metal I suppose.

The current Swift is also similarly vulnerable, but it used to pick up these dimples after a while, not so early in life. I have noted the same in my long term ownership report too.

Originally Posted by deetjohn

What could be better?
The build of outer shell: The sheet metal thickness, especially the five doors leaves a lot to be desired. The Swift won't age well even though the car is bulletproof mechanically. The top portion of both rear doors had some light dings even though they never hit anything. All fenders and bonnet is relatively tougher as they are not flat and the lines and creases give the metal a bit more strength.

This is a common phenomenon on some of Japanese cars sold here. For ex: Innova is notorious for picking up dimples and dents but Corolla is tough. I think S-Cross will also fare better.

[amalji]

Originally Posted by Vid6639

I wasn't being specific. I was saying that both are close. And the 60 kilos difference might not be directly related to safety enforcements but due to a heavier engine block itself.

It was 90 kgs difference not even 60 kgs. I've corrected my own post. In a responsible community like team-bhp, I feel that we shouldn't be giving wrong numbers. Mentioning 20 kgs when the difference is 90 kgs is utterly wrong ( especially since the original comparison I was making was with the swift where the kerb weight difference was almost the same ). The same applies to hiding the fact that the Baleno is 8% bigger than the liva and conveniently ignoring the fact that it's a premium hatch which competes with the likes of jazz and i20 and not a hatch like the liva and even making the wild and unrealistic guess that 60 kgs is the difference in engine weight.

Originally Posted by Vid6639

I
Actually I am saying if Etios can get 4 star latin NCAP rating being one of the flimsiest build quality then surely Baleno being a world product will not fare worse so we should give them the benefit of doubt.

I never claimed the liva has the strongest of build. But I find it par for the course. You won't get a Latin ncap rating of 4, if the crumble zone is not designed properly. And as a segment first, you have the option to choose airbags in whichever variant you buy.

Originally Posted by Vid6639

I
In my opinion both cars are poorly build and if you are looking for safety, both should be at the bottom of the list.

Not when I've the Japanese advantages of light weight and performance without compromising much on safety in a product called the Honda jazz. I feel it's my responsibility to highlight this. Please don't take this as a brand bashing.

And I don't believe that sheet metal thickness has anything to do with the safety of a car. The only concern I was making was how realistic it is to cut logical weight by 15% to 20% compared to Japanese light weight cars which are already feather light and still keep the safety intact. If Maruti has done it, kudos to them. Even in my post, I've specifically mentioned that I pray that I'm proved wrong in the Latin ncap tests.

[Vid6639]

Originally Posted by amalji

It was 90 kgs difference not even 60 kgs. I've corrected my own post. In a responsible community like team-bhp, I feel that we shouldn't be giving wrong numbers. Mentioning 20 kgs when the difference is 90 kgs is utterly wrong ( especially since the original comparison I was making was with the swift where the kerb weight difference was almost the same ). The same applies to hiding the fact that the Baleno is 8% bigger than the liva and conveniently ignoring the fact that it's a premium hatch which competes with the likes of jazz and i20 and not a hatch like the liva and even making the wild and unrealistic guess that 60 kgs is the difference in engine weight.

These are the weights from Page 1 spec table on this thread. There might be small changes depending on variants in consideration but I don't see 90 kilos difference.

Baleno Petrol - 865 Kgs
Liva Petrol - 895 kgs

Baleno diesel - 960kgs
Liva diesel - 975 kgs

Both cars are sub 4m. Yes the baleno is bigger but weight and exterior size don't have to correlate.

I never claimed the liva has the strongest of build. But I find it par for the course. You won't get a Latin ncap rating of 4, if the crumble zone is not designed properly. And as a segment first, you have the option to choose airbags in whichever variant you buy.

So why is Liva par for the course but the Baleno not so?

Not when I've the Japanese advantages of light weight and performance without compromising much on safety in a product called the Honda jazz. I feel it's my responsibility to highlight this.

Yes the Jazz is well engineered. Agreed. I felt it was also important to highlight the same thing, that japanese lightweight and performance like the Baleno does not mean that safety is compromised. Especially by looking at some pics of one freak accident and then questioning the safety of the car.

As a responsible community we shouldn't encourage such speculations in the absence of data being a new launch in the market. One needs to be unbiased.

[Dr.Q]

Originally Posted by amalji

It was 90 kgs difference not even 60 kgs. I've corrected my own post. In a responsible community like team-bhp, I feel that we shouldn't be giving wrong numbers. Mentioning 20 kgs when the difference is 90 kgs is utterly wrong ( especially since the original comparison I was making was with the swift where the kerb weight difference was almost the same ). The same applies to hiding the fact that the Baleno is 8% bigger than the liva and conveniently ignoring the fact that it's a premium hatch which competes with the likes of jazz and i20 and not a hatch like the liva and even making the wild and unrealistic guess that 60 kgs is the difference in engine weight.



I never claimed the liva has the strongest of build. But I find it par for the course. You won't get a Latin ncap rating of 4, if the crumble zone is not designed properly. And as a segment first, you have the option to choose airbags in whichever variant you buy.



Not when I've the Japanese advantages of light weight and performance without compromising much on safety in a product called the Honda jazz. I feel it's my responsibility to highlight this.

Here is a break up of all the honda Jazz variants:

E variant:
LED Rear Tail Lamp & LED High Mount Stop Lamp
Power Windows (Front & Rear)
Power Steering with Tilt Function
One Touch Lane Change Indicator
Day/Night Rear View Mirror
ABS with EBD* (Only Diesel)
9 Cup/Bottle Holders
Beige Fabric Upholstery

S variant:
In addition to E;
Chrome Accentuated High Gloss Black Grille
R15 Wheels with Trim Cover
Integrated Audio with 8.9cm (3.5") Screen
Audio Controls on Steering Wheel
Hands Free Telephone
Electrically Adjustable ORVM
Driver Seat Height Adjuster
Rear License Chrome Garnish
Rear Defogger
Central Locking with Keyless Entry
Rear Parcel Shelf & Cargo Light

SV Variant:
In addition to S;
Dual SRS Airbag
ABS with EBD* (Diesel+Petrol)
Advanced Multi-Information Combination Meter
(with Eco Assist Ambient Meter Rings# )
Advanced Integrated Audio with 12.7 cm (5") Screen
Rear Parking Camera (Wide, Normal & Top-Down View)
Front Fog Lamps
Hands Free Telephone Control on Steering Wheel
Rear Micro Antenna
Driver Side Window One Touch Up /Down with Pinch Guard

V variant:
In addition to SV;
R15 Alloy Wheels
Auto AC with Touchscreen Control Panel#
Rear Wiper & Washer
Electrically Folding ORVM with Turn Indicators
Leather Wrapped Steering Wheel & Gear Knob
Paddle Shift (Only CVT)#

VX variant:
In addition to V;
Advanced Integrated 15.7 cm (6.2")
Touch Screen Audio Visual Navigation
Magic Seat
40:60 Split Seat Back & Cushion


My question:
1. No ABS and EBD in petrol variant till SV variant.
2. No dual SRS airbags till SV variant.
3. No 60:40 seats till VX variant.
So what I understood from your point is that a Jazz without Airbags and ABS is better than a Baleno base model with Airbags and ABS???

[WRXXX]

Originally Posted by amalji

And I don't believe that sheet metal thickness has anything to do with the safety of a car. The only concern I was making was how realistic it is to cut logical weight by 15% to 20% compared to Japanese light weight cars which are already feather light and still keep the safety intact. If Maruti has done it, kudos to them. Even in my post, I've specifically mentioned that I pray that I'm proved wrong in the Latin ncap tests.

Excuse me? Baleno isn't Japanese?
Also, when you say you trust Jazz is safer in honest terms you are doing guess work just like all of us here.
So, let's cut this talking out of thin air please.

[WRXXX]

Spotted a white Sigma Baleno, and believe me it looks the best among the variants. Grill design is cleaner.
So, those who love modding their cars should pick a Sigma and add all the goodies apart from Power windows. Or let's lift the Grill from Sigma??? LOL

My colleague got an elite i20 and did a quick 5 minute Multi level Parking Lot test for handling to see if Hyundai has done any magic to handling of their cars, and very much convinced that Hyundai has still got a long way to go. It failed both my hairpin bend test as well as acute left/right turn parking test. However cabin and knobs felt a notch high quality than Baleno. But other than those mild negatives from my perspective Baleno in Delta or Zeta is still a better VFM package of the whole big lot of other cars. But, I really wish Maruti/Suzuki does few things immediately to address body strength concerns like dimple issues and silence the speculations by at least publishing some technical reports on internal safety and structural test results.

[Horizon85]

Originally Posted by WRXXX

My colleague got an elite i20 and did a quick 5 minute Multi level Parking Lot test for handling to see if Hyundai has done any magic to handling of their cars, and very much convinced that Hyundai has still got a long way to go. It failed both my hairpin bend test as well as acute left/right turn parking test. However cabin and knobs felt a notch high quality than Baleno. .

I completely agree with you. I have booked a Baleno petrol Zeta in November 1st week and awaiting delivery. But, after reading a lot about the dimples and other stuff, I tried the i20 and jazz yesterday.

For me, both cars had something lacking. The i20 steering did not meet my expectations and the jazz felt a bit under-powered to me.

I really liked the Polo's steering and handling. But the Polo's petrol motor did not appeal much. What would you do, had you been in my place?

[IshaanIan]

Originally Posted by amalji

I never claimed the liva has the strongest of build. But I find it par for the course.

Hahaha I have a very close source in the tinkering business who comes with several years of experience and impeccable skill. He tells me that the Etios twins are two of the most structurally compromised vehicles he has witnessed having previously dealt with accident vehicles. So you find it par for the course how exactly?

[WRXXX]

Originally Posted by Horizon85

I completely agree with you. I have booked a Baleno petrol Zeta in November 1st week and awaiting delivery. But, after reading a lot about the dimples and other stuff, I tried the i20 and jazz yesterday.

For me, both cars had something lacking. The i20 steering did not meet my expectations and the jazz felt a bit under-powered to me.

I really liked the Polo's steering and handling. But the Polo's petrol motor did not appeal much. What would you do, had you been in my place?

Hi,

Actually, I am in your place already :-) I am happy about POLO but unhappy about VW for what they did. I would have picked POLO if they had the 1.2 TSI with manual and of course that is prior to the scandal.

Now only few cars are available with a good 1.2 four cylinder motor. With that My picks are Jazz and Baleno.
Given the Jazz is utterly over priced, under geared for city and filled with mindless variant planning(magic seats), I would stick to Baleno. Yes, I do agree about the poor metal sheet quality can be a big concern in Baleno and it seems like every other car is a compromise in one way or the other in this segment.

I always look at a leather boot and say the only reason why it can stay like new for years is, it lasts and next a bit polish can keep it like new. Now only reason why I would choose Maruti is the cost of bringing the car back to newness is relatively cheap despite of some quality concerns.

So between Jazz and Baleno, if you are looking at practicality then its Jazz but be ready for the Shocking prices for lesser features. If it is Driving dynamics and some compromise and peace of mind service package then Baleno.

[kiku007]

Time for adding, "Poke the car's body panels with your finger (Not fist) to see if it leaves a dent" to the PDI checklist and "Zero depreciation for dimple repairs" add-on cover to insurance policies.

May be the doors can be damped with ICE Damping material to give some feeling of weight to the doors. :P

[coolboy007]

Originally Posted by kiku007

May be the doors can be damped with ICE Damping material to give some feeling of weight to the doors. :P

That is a good suggestion indeed, damping sheets like dynamat or dampmat when applied to the inner side of doors helps take care of these small things. I got all 4 doors + boot on my Vento damped and there was a significant increase in weighty feeling of doors, the thud sounds even better. It is another story that this was done for ICE upgrade and not for avoiding dimples or making the doors heavy.

[dragonov007]

I feel all cars have their own strengths and weaknesses and the process of buying a car is an exercise in deciding in which areas a buyer is willing to compromise, after evaluating the pros and cons of the choices available in the market.

I bought the Ford Aspire TDCi Titanium+ recently. I had booked in the beginning of Nov and had the option of going with the Baleno diesel Alpha.I would have got lots of features over the Aspire if I went with the Baleno.But after a brief moment of confusion I decided to stick with the Aspire for the following reasons-

1. The punchy,torquey and yet immensely tractable 1.5 TDCi engine which is effortless to drive in the city and which I guess will be equally at home in the highways(I have yet to drive in the highway,but the composed manner in which the car picks up speed with minimal effort, is commendable)
2. 6 airbags.
3. Good quality interiors with supportive leather seats and spot-on ergonomics for my body size.
4. Good enough built.(Though not Ecosport or VW good.)
5.Commendable brakes.

Also close to INR 40,000 discount from Ford in Nov. bookings,sweetened the deal.

I was ready to compromise on more feature laden Baleno in lieu of the points mentioned above.But for others the Projectors,Rear view cam(though the Ford provided Autocop sensors is doing its job good),UV cut glass,DRLs,fancy meter console,16 inch wheels,bigger rear seat space,efficient and tested 1.3 DDis,maybe better ergonomics for their body size in the Baleno,equally good brakes as per an individual's feeling and not to forget better Maruti ASS and better resale value may be reasons for going with the Baleno.

Similarly I did not pick up the following cars for reasons of my own- like Amaze for its spartan interiors,poor NVH and light build;Jazz for its premium pricing for what it offers;Zest for its uninspiring side profile in my eyes(I like the new direction Tata has taken with designing the Zica though) and Tata ASS;Xcent for its anaemic diesel;Elite i20 for its vague handling and feeling of the heft of driving something bigger.However these reasons are totally my personal views and the owners who chose them have obviously studied these cars and looked beyond what felt like 'shortcomings' in my eyes for superior ASS of Honda and better boot space when considering Amaze,a global car in the Jazz,a total VFM product in the Zest or class leading fit and finish in the Hyundais.It is not so simple to recommend product A over B these days,it depends upon the buyer's priorities.

So those who are confused with the Baleno,must fix what their priorities are in the first place and then take an informed decision based on the exhaustive Team BHP review.In the end its only one's own choice and one should be at peace with whatever choice one makes.Getting worried about safety without any crash test data will get us to no where.However if someone is that much worried,he should move on and choose something else which gives him the peace of mind from such thoughts.

P.S.-Wouldn't it be an incredibly boring world(or street) if everyone thought similarly and bought same products?(Another reason I bought the Aspire was the thinking that this car is not going to sell in swarms and so some amount of uniqueness will be preserved! )

[procrj]

Originally Posted by IshaanIan

Etios twins are two of the most structurally compromised vehicles

Disagree based on personal experience. I was driving an Etios when a Suzuki baleno (old) rammed into the boot at 50-60kmph. The baleno was in shambles but the Etios only suffered from a broken bumper and damaged boot lid. Best part was 2 women + 2 kids in the back seat did not feel anything but a slight jerk as in when someone tends to rear end at low speeds in city traffic. Even at the wheel all I felt was a slight jerk and I was not expecting the baleno to be leaking coolant/engine oil all over the road. I would have purchased the Etios if not for the regressive dashboard styling and every second cab in bangalore being an Etios.

[WRXXX]

Originally Posted by procrj

Disagree based on personal experience. I was driving an Etios when a Suzuki baleno (old) rammed into the boot at 50-60kmph. The baleno was in shambles but the Etios only suffered from a broken bumper and damaged boot lid. Best part was 2 women + 2 kids in the back seat did not feel anything but a slight jerk as in when someone tends to rear end at low speeds in city traffic. Even at the wheel all I felt was a slight jerk and I was not expecting the baleno to be leaking coolant/engine oil all over the road. I would have purchased the Etios if not for the regressive dashboard styling and every second cab in bangalore being an Etios.

No offense here.

Old Baleno has nothing in common with the new one except the name. I wonder how this comparison proves anything. Old Baleno was not designed with safety considerations in many aspects. Especially cabin intrusion.

Also, I don't think a rear ending at 50-60 kmph in any car will leave the car being rear ended slightly shaken.
It will be a significant damage to both cars IMHO. My suggestion is one needs to be objective when stating facts like these. Was the Etios too traveling at 50-60? Was the Etios stopped? How do we know the speed of the rear ending car if we are driving?

Your story makes it look like Etios is built like a tank, and hope I am not day dreaming.

[Sheel]

Originally Posted by IshaanIan

Hahaha I have a very close source in the tinkering business who comes with several years of experience and impeccable skill. He tells me that the Etios twins are two of the most structurally compromised vehicles he has witnessed having previously dealt with accident vehicles. So you find it par for the course how exactly?

I just might agree with you here based on seat of pant experience but please do tell me, is there a way to determine this?