[Touringlawyer]

Thanks for your responses, folks.

Ok, let me first state the reason why I had asked this question in the first place. While test-driving the Pajero Sport manual some months back, the sales person had told me that the Pajero Sport in 4x4 LLC mode would be producing more than 900 NM of torque, which should be able to cross any hurdle / very difficult hurdles.

I have since developed a great liking for the Ford Endeavour 3.2, having read all about it on this forum and elsewhere. Though I am still a couple of years away from making the purchase (I bought the Duster AWD in August 2016), I have started researching about the Endeavour 3.2, and suddenly the question that struck me was this:

If this vehicle produces 470 NM Torque in the normal gearing, what would it be producing when the 4x4 Low is engaged and also (all other things being equal), would this mean that the Endeavour 3.2 which produces such huge amounts of torque in 4x4 Low mode be a more capable vehicle than the Land Rover Range Rover Autobiography model which though ordinarily produces about 700 Plus NM of Torque but does not have a 4x4 Low, since it is only an AWD vehicle. Underlying thought / question being, in the 4x4 Low mode, is the Ford Endeavour 3.2 more capable as on off-roader than the Land Rover Range Rover Autobiography which would cost 10 times more (approx. 4 Crores or thereabouts)

I am not a subject matter expert (obviously) and hence I did a little research and found the following articles, which as n.devnath says, state that engaging 4x4 Low Range Gearbox produces much greater torque at the wheels (which is the torque relevant to us, if I have understood it correctly).

Sharing the links below:

1. https://jalopnik.com/crawl-ratios-an...eve-1722578417 (See the part where it discusses the Low End Torque)

2. https://www.cartoq.com/10-things-you...el-drive-suvs/ (This article claims that 'the Mahindra Thar has a torque output of 247 Nm when the regular mode is engaged. When the low-gear ratio is engaged, the torque output increases to 600 Nm'.)

3. https://www.outbacktravelaustralia.c...types-examined (This article states that 'It's easy to see why 4WDs need more torque multiplication than road-bound cars. All you have to do is put your front wheels against a steep rock shelf to find out that you need more torque than is available through a road-going transmission. Low-range gearing varies in ratio, but 'real' off-road vehicles have a minimum 2:1 low range reduction, thus at least doubling the torque available. North America’s love of rock-crawling has resulted in some Yank transfer cases with ratios of 4:1.')

4. http://www.4x4abc.com/4WD101/crawl.html (This article states 'Every gear ratio involved subsequently boosts the torque output. This engine produces 200 lbs./ft. of torque - transmission and transfer case multiply it to 2084 lbs./ft. and the differentials boost it further so that each wheel can create a whopping 2141 lbs./ft. of torque. So, the lower a crawl ratio, the higher the torque available at the wheels')

Grateful for all your thoughts / inputs. Please keep them coming.

[Hellzboy]

Originally Posted by Surprise

During a 1000 kms drive in Endy, the seats were not comfortable at the end of the drive as it felt/hurt like sitting on a bench for too long a period.

I drive about 500kms up and same down, from Delhi to Himachal every month, and have felt at ease with the steering at the lowest and the seat brought down to allow enough space to clear the thighs and allow easy ingress and egress. This allows me to rest my right elbow on the door arm rest, or for a short while on my thighs itself. This is especially fine while on a highway, where I do not require myself to sit tall. It has helped me a lot. On other routes, I sit upright with the seat and the steering, both in the highest position.

Originally Posted by anumod

Is anyone facing issues with Horn of endeavor. My horn (High tone) stopped working in the month of May . They replaced it and it stopped working again from last week

I have had issues with the horn, twice. First time they inspected everything, including the connectors and came to conclusion that the horn needs to be replaced. They ordered the whole horn plate, including the air bag from Chennai and replaced it under warranty (3rd year). The second time when the horn had a 'sore throat' (loss of high tone) it was an issue with a connector on one of the horns and was rectified and it is working fine now.

[A.G.]

Originally Posted by n.devdath

It should ideally double in 4L 1st gear which should take it to around 800NM which is also what the GB is designed to handle.

The transfer case in 4L (which has a ratio of 2.48:1 in Low range) will have torque multiplication after the gearbox. It does not affect the nearly double safety factor for torque the gearbox has as the 6R80 gearbox is rated to handle upto 800NM engine torque which is well above the 470NM rating of the 3.2 Puma.

[chaudh2s]

Originally Posted by Touringlawyer

If this vehicle produces 470 NM Torque in the normal gearing, what would it be producing when the 4x4 Low is engaged and also (all other things being equal), would this mean that the Endeavour 3.2 which produces such huge amounts of torque in 4x4 Low mode be a more capable vehicle than the Land Rover Range Rover Autobiography model which though ordinarily produces about 700 Plus NM of Torque but does not have a 4x4 Low, since it is only an AWD vehicle. Underlying thought / question being, in the 4x4 Low mode, is the Ford Endeavour 3.2 more capable as on off-roader than the Land Rover Range Rover Autobiography which would cost 10 times more (approx. 4 Crores or thereabouts)

Since when did changing the gearing increased the maximum torque output of an engine? or was it taught in those few lectures i missed during college days? If Maruti hears about this new concept, they would reduce engine size to 500CC and give low range gearing in all their cars.
Please don't tell me when 4x4 Low is engaged, the torque becomes 4x4x470=7520NM.

[Touringlawyer]

Originally Posted by chaudh2s

Since when did changing the gearing increased the maximum torque output of an engine? or was it taught in those few lectures i missed during college days? If Maruti hears about this new concept, they would reduce engine size to 500CC and give low range gearing in all their cars.
Please don't tell me when 4x4 Low is engaged, the torque becomes 4x4x470=7520NM.

You certainly missed the lectures where it was taught that one must comment after reading the complete post.

If you had bothered reading the links/references given in my post, you would have understood that the whole issue is about the torque available at the wheels in 4x4 Low Range Mode and that depends on the crawl ratio of the gearing and in 4x4 Low Range, the torque available at the wheels is significantly higher that the torque figures given for the engine of the vehicle. At least now please do read the articles, some of which have quite detailed explanation about this issue.

[anumod]

Originally Posted by Hellzboy

I have had issues with the horn, twice. First time they inspected everything, including the connectors and came to conclusion that the horn needs to be replaced. They ordered the whole horn plate, including the air bag from Chennai and replaced it under warranty (3rd year). The second time when the horn had a 'sore throat' (loss of high tone) it was an issue with a connector on one of the horns and was rectified and it is working fine now.

Same happened with me too. This time I had a better technician and he did good root causing and found out the issue was with connector. So I didn't have to change the horns this time. Car just came back from the 30K service, shall put a detailed post on service experience.

[Turbanator]

Originally Posted by Touringlawyer

While test-driving the Pajero Sport manual some months back, the sales person had told me that the Pajero Sport in 4x4 LLC mode would be producing more than 900 NM of torque, which should be able to cross any hurdle / very difficult hurdles.

Sound BS to me, the Torque and Power graph for any Car or engine for that matter will be a curve and the values that we see on the specifications will be the maximum in a particular gear/ RPM, latter being mentioned in the spec sheet. Just by changing to Lower gear or putting into 4x4 Low, these cannot increase beyond the maximum.

[Touringlawyer]

Originally Posted by Turbanator

Sound BS to me, the Torque and Power graph for any Car or engine for that matter will be a curve and the values that we see on the specifications will be the maximum in a particular gear/ RPM, latter being mentioned in the spec sheet. Just by changing to Lower gear or putting into 4x4 Low, these cannot increase beyond the maximum.

I don't think you have also cared to read the entire post and the references mentioned therein. The issue is about Torque at the wheels in the 4x4 Low mode.

Please do care to read the links / references mentioned in my post. Some of them are by automobile experts who have explained in great detail on how the torque at the wheels multiplies significantly in the 4x4 low mode. As I have said, I am not a subject matter expert, but based on these articles (links in my post), I understand that while the Torque and Power figures for the Engine would remain the same, the Torque at the Wheels depends on the crawl ratio of the gear.

[Turbanator]

Originally Posted by Touringlawyer

I don't think you have also cared to read the entire post and the references mentioned therein. The issue is about Torque at the wheels in the 4x4 Low mode.

Please do care to read the links/references mentioned in my post. Some of them are by automobile experts who have explained in great detail on how the torque at the wheels multiplies significantly in the 4x4 low mode. As I have said, I am not a subject matter expert, but based on these articles (links in my post), I understand that while the Torque and Power figures for the Engine would remain the same, the Torque at the Wheels depends on the crawl ratio of the gear.

Why do you think that if someone does not agree with you has not read your posts? Probably you need to rethink your question.

Any engine will have a maximum Torque / Bhp which is mentioned in the specification sheet. That's the maximum rating and doing anything like using it in a lower gear or 4x4 mode will not increase this anymore. Of course, there will be always a situation where power/ Torque is less than what's maximum possible at wheels or the crankshaft but I don't see your point?

If this is what you want to believe - best of luck for your purchase!

While test-driving the Pajero Sport manual some months back, the sales person had told me that the Pajero Sport in 4x4 LLC mode would be producing more than 900 NM of torque, which should be able to cross any hurdle / very difficult hurdles.

And who told you that RR Vogue does not come with Low range Gearbox?

Twin-speed transfer box (high/low range) is standard on all variants with either Terrain Response/ Terrain Response 2 - check here

https://rules.config.landrover.com/j...l?q=n-350kg-6&

[Touringlawyer]

Originally Posted by Turbanator

Why do you think that if someone does not agree with you has not read your posts? Probably you need to think about your question.

Any engine will have a maximum Torque / Bhp which is mentioned in the specification sheet. That's the maximum rating and doing anything like using it in a lower gear or 4x4 mode will not increase this anymore. Of course, there will be always a situation where power/ Torque is less than what's maximum possible but I don't see your point? If this is what you want to believe - best of luck for your purchase

I have no issues with disagreement bit. But please do care to explain.

Let me be more specific. The following articles given below explain (ignore the cartoq article which only states and does not explain in detail) how the torque multiplies as per a particular formula depending on the crawl ratio of the low gearing in the 4x4 low range.

Do you agree with them? If not, and you say that these articles are technically incorrect, can you please explain the fault in them. I would really appreciate the explanation as that would help me understand this better. Thanks in advance.

1. https://jalopnik.com/crawl-ratios-an...eve-1722578417 (See the part where it discusses the Low End Torque)

2. https://www.cartoq.com/10-things-you...el-drive-suvs/ (This article claims that 'the Mahindra Thar has a torque output of 247 Nm when the regular mode is engaged. When the low-gear ratio is engaged, the torque output increases to 600 Nm'.)

3. https://www.outbacktravelaustralia.c...types-examined (This article states that 'It's easy to see why 4WDs need more torque multiplication than road-bound cars. All you have to do is put your front wheels against a steep rock shelf to find out that you need more torque than is available through a road-going transmission. Low-range gearing varies in ratio, but 'real' off-road vehicles have a minimum 2:1 low range reduction, thus at least doubling the torque available. North America’s love of rock-crawling has resulted in some Yank transfer cases with ratios of 4:1.')

4. http://www.4x4abc.com/4WD101/crawl.html (This article states 'Every gear ratio involved subsequently boosts the torque output. This engine produces 200 lbs./ft. of torque - transmission and transfer case multiply it to 2084 lbs./ft. and the differentials boost it further so that each wheel can create a whopping 2141 lbs./ft. of torque. So, the lower a crawl ratio, the higher the torque available at the wheels')

[roby_dk]

This seems to be a topic of discussion in the off-road 4x4 section. I think you can post your query there asking for more details on the torque figures in low range mode. Although I am not an expert but I have read something related in one of the Tbhp post. Unable to recall that post but I remember I was explaining some similar stuff after reading it to my brother. In low range mode torque can be multiplied and can surpass the max value but I am not sure if that was correct or verified by a subject matter expert.

Please read below thread it is directly related to your query. Do let us know in case you find answer to your queries.

Edit:https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-t...ml#post3324760 (Torque generation and distribution)

[Touringlawyer]

Originally Posted by Turbanator

And who told you that RR Vogue does not come with Low range Gearbox?

Twin-speed transfer box (high/low range) is standard on all variants with either Terrain Response/ Terrain Response 2 - check here

https://rules.config.landrover.com/j...l?q=n-350kg-6&

Thank you for correcting me. Point noted. Perhaps my fact check on Range Rover Autobiography was not correct.

Turbanator, I must clarify one point. You are a distinguished BHPian, and I am a newbie who has just started to learn about automobiles. I very much intend to do my own research but also wish to learn from distinguished BHPians like yourself.

But when you say something like "that is BS", it doesn't help. We, commoners, expect some reasoning based explanation from experts like yourself. So I would be grateful if you could contradict and explain how the Torque Multiplication bit is wrong. Thanks in advance.

[PrideRed]

Originally Posted by Touringlawyer

I have no issues with disagreement bit. But please do care to explain.

Let me be more specific. The following articles given below explain (ignore the cartoq article which only states and does not explain in detail) how the torque multiplies as per a particular formula depending on the crawl ratio of the low gearing in the 4x4 low range.

Do you agree with them? If not, and you say that these articles are technically incorrect, can you please explain the fault in them. I would really appreciate the explanation as that would help me understand this better. Thanks in advance.

To me this is more of calculation. All cars official brochure clearly reads "Max Torque" rating. Either the car manufacturers are wrong or the websites you posted. Also in most of the cases the so called "max Torque" mention is at engine than wheels. There is significant loss of torque when calculated at wheels. Another aspect to be considered is a gear in most case will result in loss due to friction but I doubt if it will be able to increase. Best way is to head out to a Dyno and get verified what torque is actually made at wheels.

[Touringlawyer]

Hi PrideRed,

All the research that I have done so far (including the links already shared), agree with what you say insofar as a 2WD automobile is concerned.

Also watched some videos explaining the torque generation and multiplication bit, and all of them which discussed this point clearly stated that with respect to a 2WD automobile, the torque generated by the engine and available at the flywheel is definitely higher than the torque at the wheels because of the loss due to friction at various levels.

However, at the same time, they also explained how it is significantly different in the case of a vehicle with 4x4 Low Range. Torque Multiplication comes into play only in cases of a vehicle with a low range transfer case i.e., 4x4 Low Range.

But as roby_dk points out, perhaps this query is meant for another thread. So I am posting my query there for confirmation by the experts.

I guess the whole point of Team-bhp is sharing of information and knowledge, which helps all automobile enthusiasts like us. So I am hoping the experts will share their views and I will get to learn.

[srishiva]

Originally Posted by Touringlawyer

Hi PrideRed,

All the research that I have done so far (including the links already shared), agree with what you say insofar as a 2WD automobile is concerned.

Also watched some videos explaining the torque generation and multiplication bit, and all of them which discussed this point clearly stated that with respect to a 2WD automobile, the torque generated by the engine and available at the flywheel is definitely higher than the torque at the wheels because of the loss due to friction at various levels.

However, at the same time, they also explained how it is significantly different in the case of a vehicle with 4x4 Low Range. Torque Multiplication comes into play only in cases of a vehicle with a low range transfer case i.e., 4x4 Low Range.

But as roby_dk points out, perhaps this query is meant for another thread. So I am posting my query there for confirmation by the experts.

I guess the whole point of Team-bhp is sharing of information and knowledge, which helps all automobile enthusiasts like us. So I am hoping the experts will share their views and I will get to learn.

Torque multiplication doesnt have to be only from low range transfer case. Any gearing can do that even from the normal gear box.

Now look up what power means and get confused more You dont need to get intimidated. No one knows everything.