[debuda]

Originally Posted by AirbusCapt

For instance, in normal mode, the Mahindra Thar offers a torque output of 247 Nm. However, with the 4-low engaged, the torque output increases to a whopping 600 Nm. Now you see the difference.

AirbusCapt -- Kindly go through my previous post where I have tried to clarify this issue in detail. Your statement "in normal mode, the Mahindra Thar offers a torque output of 247 Nm. However, with the 4-low engaged, the torque output increases to a whopping 600 Nm" is technically incorrect. In reality, the maximum torque output of the Thar engine remains 247 Nm regardless of drive mode. It is the Wheel Torque, which may be around 300 Nm in normal mode, that increases to 600 Nm in 4x4 Low Range mode.

Originally Posted by Turbanator

Since you have quoted me, I reiterate that I still find these figures wrong -

What you or others have answered is Torque at wheels wrt different gears, my answer was regarding someone quoting figures about twice as mentioned over the specifications. If I am wrong in my understanding, can you or anyone else help me to understand how can this figure of 900 NM in 4x4 LLC mode in Pajero be correct? And if it's correct then why has manufacturer mentioned much lower figures on their spec sheet?

Or for that matter, if the torque figures at wheels are so important for any SUV/ Car, why do manufacturers do not mention on their spec sheet? And should we choose a 4x4 after doing all calculations of Torque available at wheels considering Engine Torque, Gear ratios and wheel Dia?

I have also never seen any reviews or comparisons anywhere including here, which says that an X SUV has 100 Nm in 4x4 at wheels and Y has 120 Nm so the Y will able to handle a demanding situation better then X if everything else is same!

1) Even after my detailed explanation of the difference between engine torque and wheel torque, and how engine torque can be amplified manifold down the power train to give much higher Wheel Torque, if you are still unable to understand how a Pajero can easily have wheel torque of 900 Nm or more, I cannot help you further. Please also see my response to AirbusCapt regarding Thar torque.

2) Car manufacturers always mention the Maximum Engine Torque in their specifications for the simple reason that engine is the source or fountainhead of power & torque and determines the limits of the ability of the car to perform as designed. Even a Tata Nano engine can be mated to a specially designed transmission in a car which can have wheel torque of 1000 Nm or more. The only problem there would be that the maximum speed of that car may be, say, 5 kmph! Every car designer would obviously design their cars to give the best combination of speed, acceleration, pulling / towing / climbing ability, off roading ability, etc, depending on the primary role of the car and the price point. Sedans are usually optimized for speed and acceleration only and rarely have torque and traction enhancers like fat tyres, very low gear ratios or 4WD. SUV's are designed differently. An ATV (all terrain vehicle) or a tractor would have completely different design criteria for their transmissions. But regardless of role of the vehicle or its design criteria, the single most important thing is the ability of the prime mover (engine) to produce power and torque. That is why all manufacturers specify them.

3) It would usually be pointless for a car manufacturer to specify or advertise wheel torque at different gears because hardly anybody would understand or appreciate those figures. As is evident here, even many TBHP members (including distinguished ones) who are more knowledgeable about cars can't distinguish between engine torque and wheel torque. For the lay public the understanding of these parameters is likely to be even less. So car makers only talk about maximum engine power and torque which most people can understand.

4) There are some people (including many TBHPians) who actually find out parameters like power to weight ratio, bore / stroke, valve timing, wheel torque at different gears and RPMs, tyre size & profile, etc, etc, before they choose a car. That is why some car salespersons (like the Pajero guy) are trained to provide extra information to those who want them.

[Turbanator]

Originally Posted by debuda

1) Even after my detailed explanation of the difference between engine torque and wheel torque. I cannot help you further.

3) It would usually be pointless for a car manufacturer to specify or advertise wheel torque at different gears because hardly anybody would understand or appreciate those figures.

Thanks for the explanation here and before but you should not presume that the others have not understood. In the whole of the communication relating to this query before there was no reference of Torque at wheel and Again if you agree to a sales guy boasting - 900 Nm for Pajero, I rest my case.

Wonder why not 3000 or 4000 Nm as this might be also possible going by the rough calculations given by RobyDk for Endy, I am sure Pajero will be closer.

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/offic...ml#post4497489 (Ford Endeavour : Official Review)

4) There are some people (including many TBHPians) who actually find out parameters like power to weight ratio, bore / stroke, valve timing, wheel torque at different gears and RPMs, tyre size & profile, etc, etc, before they choose a car.

If I recollect, you have mentioned a very detailed post/ thread about how you chose the Endeavour, can you confirm if such calculations were done by you before you picked an Endy and mentioned anywhere? Or as an example, can you point some reviews or threads by members where they took a decision to pick an SUV based on wheel torque?

That is why some car salespersons (like the Pajero guy) are trained to provide extra information to those who want them.

I still find this wrong, say like someone tells that this car can run at a speed of 5000 and when a layman like me questions he add - Sir, I mean this engine can run at 5000 RPM. If this guy was so trained then did he tried explaining how is he comparing this Torque in Pajero vs Endy or Fortuner and how Pajero excels then the other 2 or he just came up with some random number?

My objections were to this sort of marketing by such experts to commoners, but if you or others find that this sales guy was indeed knowledgeable and did mention correct specifications to a prospective knowledgeable customer, I have nothing further to add.

[Mu009]

Quick update since I'm travelling:
1. I seem to have forgotten basic physics lately --> tau = I*alpha, and alpha = ∆omega/t (pardon the poorly typed equations, I'm using a phone). Thanks to AG, Czarcarsm, Debuda, N.Devdath and TouringLawyer for helping clear up my frankly absolutely idiotic misconception.

2. @debuda --> Loved your mini-review post regarding your purchase decision. Agree with many things there, couldn't have put it better myself. The tag line (for want of a better word) you've come up with for the vehicle absolutely resonates with me. I too had much the same feeling - that feeling is my requirement for just about every commitment in life, big or small, and the Endeavour certainly fits that requirement. Cheers sir!

Back to my vehicular update now:
3. Good first service/check-up experience (2.5k) at the dealership. Scratches mentioned at the time were removed very well by rubbing (not the stone chips obviously - nothing can help there). No hassles or charges unlike the worries we had here when I asked about this way back then.

4. As luck would have it, I delayed taking it in for the first check-up (a day later than planned) - and it so happened that n.devdath took his vehicle in for some other stuff and posted about his experience regarding doing the first oil change early as many of us here would like to do. After reading about his no shavings description, I decided not to have it changed then (his vehicle was at 4k, mine at 2.5). It seems to me that Turbanator was absolutely right about the engines being bench-run. Short of a direct confirmation from the factory, I'd say no shavings in oil is the best way to conclude/deduce/speculate that.

5. Went to Kanha via Bhilai and Dongargarh forest after that. First real outstation trip (had been for only 100km one-way trips till then) with the vehicle (was waiting for first service). Experienced a puncture at the tyre shoulder (inner side ) at the very beginning of the trip (3 inch metal piece in road construction - absolute freak accident - no shops nearby for it to be planted, I check cold pressures every morning before beginning any substantial trip, so not due to under-inflation either). Repaired it myself with a mushroom plug type kit (the ones tyre manufacturers recommend as the best way, unlike the licorice type strips commonly used). Did a good job (even though I do say so myself) - confirmed it with the next tyre guy I came to. It was still leaking air (really slowly, I'd checked with water), but the tyre guy said it's repaired properly, and that it's always touch and go when the puncture is at such a point on the tyre. Drove the rest of the trip by topping up the tyre every morning - did not want to use the limited to 80kph spare. As I said, happened at the beginning of the trip.

6. Car was an absolute joy through Dongargarh and Kanha. Ghats and forest roads in Dongargarh, and thanks to a wrong turn, I entered Kanha from a direction I hadn't before - lovely drive through the buffer zone with streams to be forded et. al. I always prefer wildlife sanctuaries and reserve forests to national parks since one has more freedom. Ever since I got the Endeavour they feel even better, since there's no safari like the one in which I can drive my own car (open Gypsies be damned). So getting to drive through Kanha (a proper portion of the buffer) was a dream come true. Needless to say, the large animal performed brilliantly through and through.

7. Had just a day of turn around time between Kanha and my next trip. For me, such a punctured tyre must be replaced - no shoulder and sidewall mends for me. So I immediately went to a tyre place after getting back. No big tyre places around on that trip (without long detours), and the slowness of the puncture + general solidity of the repair made me not worry about the safety aspect too much. Tried having it repaired and checked (purely for use as a spare), but to no avail. Immediately had them start the process of replacement. And then my troubles started - the shop guys broke the tyre pressure sensor. I was then forced to wait as they tried having it repaired (*rolls eyes*), and then had the squeamish manager connect me to the owner who promised to bear the cost. Wasted precious time on what should've been a day of rest.

8. Left for Bharatpur the very next day with one tyre pressure sensor not intact - not a real issue, having driven most of my driving life without the convenience so far - but that warning light on the instrument cluster really rankled. Needless to say, the vehicle performed excellently and all occupants were more than content and comfortable traveling 650+km in a day, right up to Bharatpur. 7th gear is sorely missed though.

9. Got back just before Diwali, and knew that my next trip was coming up on the 17th (just under 2 weeks away). An old friend who hadn't visited for a while had a decent chunk of time, and was as willing as I. Since it looked like it was just the two of us (everyone else chickened out at a long-ish trip around the time, somehow), I suggested we go anywhere we like (rather than restricting ourselves to the quite tantalising prospect of Orissa as previously suggested by him, on account of me having been there before, and he really having liked the prospect from hearing about it from me, and me raring to go back to the area and wildlife again). Spiti came up with about a week to go. And both of us are about the only people stupid enough to try and plan a trip to Spiti in the winter in just a week, despite being first timers (so to speak).

10. Had the tyre pressure sensor changed. Had to visit twice since they didn't calibrate it properly and I got another error while heading home. Had them check whether it was working by airing down and filling up twice. Had the oil changed. Odometer stood at 5300 then (post Kanha and Bharatpur). No shavings. But oil had turned from clear green to black on the dip stick around 4.5k. The service centre still recommended not changing, but since it was Spiti I was headed to, I went ahead with it. Castrol Magnatec Professional A5 (5W30). Fully synthetic at 309/L, made especially for FoMoCo - still unbelievable. Went for 5W30 since the viscosity difference at -35°C is barely 5% between 0W and 5W. Besides, .anshuman and co made a point of sticking to recommended oil in their trip. Either way, definite difference post oil change - just the right time too - engine was fully run-in. Perceptible difference in smoothness and quietness. You can tell me it's placebo to the cows come home, but I'm seriously considering going for changes at every 5k. Other than the double visit, a highly cooperative (as usual) and surprisingly almost perfectly professional experience at the dealership. Since they were replacing the tyre pressure sensor and a proper tyre/wheel combo was off the vehicle, had them check whether a full size spare would fit (thought it would given the construction of the mount and the fact that the diameter of both spare and proper wheel/tyre combo are the same - but the dealership was skeptical). Had planned to get a full size spare a little later. Will do that much quicker now (will have insulation against two sidewall cuts then, and can still keep moving at full speed post one). A trip to Spiti was on the list, but hadn't thought I'd head out so soon - that too just one car, let alone 2 dudes.

So there you have it. We left on 19th - after a really hectic week of planning and running around. Spent 20th in Delhi buying stuff (primarily 4x4 accessories). Big thanks to .anshuman for guiding me - had a simple and satisfying experience identifying and acquiring the essentials because of his help. Just need to pick up snow chains (not strictly required apparently) and the vital diesel anti-freeze from Shimla.

Posting from Chandigarh. Expecting to reach Kaza on 24th (we're taking it real slow and easy, as visiting and enjoying many places along the way since we both have the time right now - well, I always do, but it's hard finding other almost entirely unencumbered souls).

Cheers!

P.S - Thanks to a curious concatenation of circumstances, using a GoPro Hero 7 Black as a dashcam. Expect a travelogue.

[Turbanator]

Originally Posted by Mu009

Repaired it myself with a mushroom plug type kit

Something like this?

https://www.amazon.in/Grand-Pitstop-.../dp/B01758W3H2

the vital diesel anti-freeze from Shimla.

You should not need this as the Diesel they sell in upper parts already has some sort of anti-freeze as per my interaction with the pump guys.

Expecting to reach Kaza on 24th (we're taking it real slow and easy, as visiting and enjoying many places along the way since we both have the time right now.

I and a friend went on bikes during Diwali holidays but it started snowing at Kalpa and we had to come back. If you have spare time, do stay for a night at Thanedar Resort of Banjara. Very nice place on the old Tibet highway.

http://www.banjaracamps.com/camps-re...9/default.aspx

And for the Fuel, use the Pump at Narkanda, apparently, that's the best one in the area. Kaza at this time will be adventurous surely, pack extra ration and bedding just in case you need to spend some time on the road. If you are undecided about Kaza, Anshuman and other guys from Gurgaon are leaving for Jaisalmer tomorrow, do join

[Mu009]

Originally Posted by Turbanator

Something like this?

https://www.amazon.in/Grand-Pitstop-.../dp/B01758W3H2

Exactly this, in fact.
Was available for around 1100 when I ordered. I highly recommend it. I would suggest watching a video + reading the instructions before starting. The video has instructions of a slightly different type of kit (insertion of plug with a gun), while this kit uses a different means for that. Still, it was easy enough to work out, and I'm sure the next puncture I encounter at a repairable place on the tyre (hopefully never), will be handled with ease.

I was initially doubtful about going for this, since everyone seemed fine with the licorice strip type repair and there was a substantial percentage difference in costs (both kit and plug/strip). Since my Kanha trip was coming up fast (and I didn't want to be without a repair kit - and it indeed came in handy) and delivery times to my city are long, I ordered one without asking the community here. Old threads had discussions, but not sufficiently detailed/conclusive. I thought of PMing NikhilB, but the timeframe was too accelerated for me to delay fit even half a day (the kit was delivered on the eve of my trip) - in the end, the note regarding repair methods on the Bridgestone website was the clincher.

http://www.bridgestone.co.in/Repairi...lessTyres.aspx

You should not need this as the Diesel they sell in upper parts already has some sort of anti-freeze as per my interaction with the pump guys.

Homestay guy suggested getting it, hence I thought to do so. I will re-evaluate after asking pump guys at Shimla. Thanks for the tip. I will probably still buy a little bit for future anyway (provided there isn't too short an expiry on it).

I and a friend went on bikes during Diwali holidays but it started snowing at Kalpa and we had to come back. If you have spare time, do stay for a night at Thanedar Resort of Banjara. Very nice place on the old Tibet highway.

http://www.banjaracamps.com/camps-re...9/default.aspx

Looks heavenly! Thanks for sharing. Will certainly try to stop over.

And for the Fuel, use the Pump at Narkanda, apparently, that's the best one in the area.

Will do. Will fill my jerry can there as well. Topped up in Ambala - should be ready for a refuel by Narkanda.

Kaza at this time will be adventurous surely, pack extra ration and bedding just in case you need to spend some time on the road.

Already stocked to the gills - using the vehicle properly as an Expedition vehicle. Packed a whole lot of "Dhoda" from Om Sweets in Delhi.

If you are undecided about Kaza, Anshuman and other guys from Gurgaon are leaving for Jaisalmer tomorrow, do join

Would love to, but the heart is set on seeing a full moon night in Kaza right now. Hopefully a snow leopard too.

Cheers!

[ShivrajG]

Very sad news about the fire accident, FORD has to come up with a explanation on this.
This is the reason I dont trust all the electronic gimmicks being offered in the modern age cars.
I always carry a long knife which can also be used as a hammer in such cases at-least break your way out or maybe cut the seat belt.

Rest in peace my friend :(

[n.devdath]

Happy Travels and drive safe, I have a very good friend who is from Kaza, holler if you need anything in that area.

Originally Posted by Mu009

Would love to, but the heart is set on seeing a full moon night in Kaza right now. Hopefully a snow leopard too.

Cheers!

A travelogue is better than the never happening ownership report.

[roby_dk]

Guys I got below mail from Ford. Anyone checked this package in person.


Subject: Launch of Hurricane Pack for Ford Endeavour

Details:

Function

• To improve the stylish look of the vehicle

Feature

• Adds more style and gives your car an aggressive stance
• Comes with wheel arches, side claddings & rocker panels

Benefit

• Adds style to the car
• Can be painted to silver colour to improve looks
• Reduced un-sprung weight

Price: ₹ 60,756

Link: https://www.india.ford.com/suvs/ende...overlay-5.html

[sreejinair]

I guess thats why inspite of being a better vehicle, it doesnt sell well compared to the Fortuner. By the way is this the one you are talking about?

https://youtu.be/0DcyqTkZYu8

I searched youtube and found that there were a few more Endeavor on fire videos.

Rest in peace

Originally Posted by ShivrajG

Very sad news about the fire accident, FORD has to come up with a explanation on this.
This is the reason I dont trust all the electronic gimmicks being offered in the modern age cars.
I always carry a long knife which can also be used as a hammer in such cases at-least break your way out or maybe cut the seat belt.

Rest in peace my friend :(

[determinism]

Originally Posted by roby_dk

[*]Comes with wheel arches, side claddings & rocker panels

This looks like its aimed for the non titanium users. Doesn't the 3.2 titanium already have rocker panels?

[krishsreedharan]

Originally Posted by determinism

This looks like its aimed for the non titanium users. Doesn't the 3.2 titanium already have rocker panels?

Nope. An in my opinion, it might not be all that worth the while. I don't see why Ford India cannot provide us accessories such as full underside skid plates, rock sliders, extended range fuel tanks etc, which are available for the AU based owners of the Endeavour/Everest.

[sknair]

Completed 3 year service, got the horn plate replaced under warranty. Also service center replaced all the wheel nuts with new ones under warranty. Will watch out for the horn plate to see if it malfunctions again. Also there was a PCM software update, no TCM updates from last time.

[TheIndian]

I shall be buying Endy 3.2 4x4 in a couple of weeks. Please help me with a couple of quick queries:


- Does the Headrest on the front row come out from the seat when pulled out completely? or is there some locking mechanism? Because in 2 different TD cars, I asked the sales guy to remove it and both times both sales guys struggled and couldn't remove it.


- Wanted to check by reclining the 1st row passenger seat backward completely down after removing headrest to check if it comes at similar level to seat-base of the 2nd row seat


- Is auto dimming rear view mirror still being offered?


- Which are the features removed recently by Ford as compared to earlier batches?


Thanks in advance

[sreejinair]

Originally Posted by TheIndian

- Does the Headrest on the front row come out from the seat when pulled out completely? or is there some locking mechanism? Because in 2 different TD cars, I asked the sales guy to remove it and both times both sales guys struggled and couldn't remove it.


- Wanted to check by reclining the 1st row passenger seat backward completely down after removing headrest to check if it comes at similar level to seat-base of the 2nd row seat

Are you asking these because of the recent Endeavor catching fire incident? I was planning to get a used under warranty Endeavor but these incidents scared the crap out of me, specially the one in Gujrat posted on this thread.

[TheIndian]

Originally Posted by sreejinair

Are you asking these because of the recent Endeavor catching fire incident? I was planning to get a used under warranty Endeavor but these incidents scared the crap out of me, specially the one in Gujrat posted on this thread.

No. Haven't read it. Until such cases come up in sizeable numbers to draw a trend, I wouldn't be bothered about it.


The reason I asked my queries is that while having TD's, one of the cars was Pajero Sport and the sales guy shown me front seat completely reclined backward (post removing the headrest) and its seat back came at similar level as that of the seat base of the 2nd row seat. In city traffic, I have a driver and I seat in the 2nd row seat. So, if this is possible, one can stretch legs and relax while seating in 2nd row seat.