[Cresterk]

Originally Posted by audioholic

One thing that was recommended but somehow missed was AC filter replacement which was another 2K rupees

2k for a cabin air filter? Did Toyota start using activated charcoal or something? Even the engine main air filter is cheaper than this.

[haisaikat]

Originally Posted by jav

Crysta uses AI shift in normal D mode which is supposed to learn and adapt to driving style instead of shifting at fixed programmed shift points like a normal AT but i dont know if its the optimization or the unpredictable traffic which causes it to just rev too much at times, but in S mode AI is disabled and it behaves like a normal AT.

Coming to S6 mode just shift to S mode and push the gear front 2 times to go to S6 from S4. S6 is basically D mode without the AI.

In this mode it doesnt unlock or downshift until it starts near to lugging

I went through the feature documentation of the Aisin 60E gearbox used in the Crysta, but could not find AI reference. https://gearsmagazine.com/magazine/i...-toyota-ac60e/

Can you please revalidate this claim of your?

Originally Posted by Dr.Car

If we keep running the car in S6 all the time (At all speeds) wouldn't it have a negative impact on the gearbox? Thanks

In S mode, there is no gear hold as per my opinion. If you are in S6 your gear can move from S1 to S6 with S6 being maximum gear upshift. But in all the gears S1 to S6, the gearbox can downshift when it feels or unless one triggers it through driving by reducing speed, otherwise.

[Dr.Car]

Originally Posted by haisaikat

I went through the feature documentation of the Aisin 60E gearbox used in the Crysta, but could not find AI reference. https://gearsmagazine.com/magazine/i...-toyota-ac60e/

Can you please revalidate this claim of your?



In S mode, there is no gear hold as per my opinion. If you are in S6 your gear can move from S1 to S6 with S6 being maximum gear upshift. But in all the gears S1 to S6, the gearbox can downshift when it feels or unless one triggers it through driving by reducing speed, otherwise.

Well, even though this is a good explanation but I haven't ever seen any car with AT doing upshifts itself in the S mode. Yes, downshifts do happen if the speed of the car is below permissible level. Doesn't the automatic upshifting defeat the whole purpose of having a manual mode in AT?

[jav]

Originally Posted by haisaikat

I
Can you please revalidate this claim of your?

Originally Posted by Dr.Car

Nice observation! But is there any technical evidence for this?
Also, what would the difference between S4 and S6? As far as I know the S mode is there for manual shifting of gears if required. If we keep running the car in S6 all the time (At all speeds) wouldn't it have a negative impact on the gearbox? Thanks

It has been mentioned in many places but you can see the attached screenshot of the owners manual it says it clearly.

Also S mode is just to let the gearbox know which is the highest gear it can shift to and its not forcing it to be in 6th gear at all times is what i am assuming you think it means, its basically meant to be used to get engine braking while going downhill while limiting what is the highest gear it can shift to and in s6 mode it still shifts from 1-6 just like normal D mode just without the AI.

[Dr.Car]

Originally Posted by jav

It has been mentioned in many places but you can see the attached screenshot of the owners manual it says it clearly.

Also S mode is just to let the gearbox know which is the highest gear it can shift to and its not forcing it to be in 6th gear at all times is what i am assuming you think it means, its basically meant to be used to get engine braking while going downhill while limiting what is the highest gear it can shift to and in s6 mode it still shifts from 1-6 just like normal D mode just without the AI.

Got it! I also downloaded another international owner's manual of Crysta (Which has references to India as well), it also mentions the same thing along with some elaboration. Have attached the pictures below

Just a few last things which I want to ask you please

1. Will the S6 affect the overtaking a little? For Ex- If I am cruising at 80 Kmph and want to suddenly accelerate to 100 Kmph, won't the gearbox be slower to downshift than the D mode? Asking this because you said in S mode it would mostly downshift in cases where car is close to lugging.

2. Have you got any information regarding this AI thing in the Fortuner or other Torque converter vehicles like Seltos, Creta etc. I did research a bit but couldn't find any concrete evidence for the AI shift thing to be there on any of these.
Really can't seem to understand why Toyota could even think to add such a half baked feature in one of their vehicles which they developed after extensive research of the Indian driving conditions

3. In one of your posts you mentioned about the ATs' temperature? How did you get to know about it while driving? As far as my understanding goes, the indicator on the instrument cluster only shows the engine temperature.

[jav]

Originally Posted by Dr.Car

1. Will the S6 affect the overtaking a little? For Ex- If I am cruising at 80 Kmph and want to suddenly accelerate to 100 Kmph, won't the gearbox be slower to downshift than the D mode? Asking this because you said in S mode it would mostly downshift in cases where car is close to lugging.

2. Have you got any information regarding this AI thing in the Fortuner or other Torque converter vehicles like Seltos, Creta etc.

3. In one of your posts you mentioned about the ATs' temperature?

1.No it will still downshift if you press the accel pedal a bit more,but if you have a 2.4AT its not much of a difference its only noticeable in the 2.8

2.As far as i know it is in most of the newer 6 speed ATs in Toyota, no idea about other cars

3. I use a device called scangauge to monitor temperature sensors such as Torque Converter temp, Transmission Fluid temp radiator temp and turbo air temp. it plugs into the obd port and has a bit more features but i just use it to see temperature and battery voltage, but this is not available here you need to order it from abroad.

[Dr.Car]

Originally Posted by jav

1.No it will still downshift if you press the accel pedal a bit more,but if you have a 2.4AT its not much of a difference its only noticeable in the 2.8

Just to clarify since I have the 2.4 AT, do you mean that there won't be much of a difference between acceleration (At Highway speeds) between D mode and S mode.

Also, I think one thing is certain from this discussion that we should be using the S mode at all times i.e. within city and Highway in order to get maximum efficiency. Also, while driving in City, I noticed considerably less noise from the engine which is probably because it doesn't downshift at every slight pedal input and behaves like a normal AT should.

Thanks once again

[0mni]

Hello everyone,
This is my first post on Team BHP!

I am buying a pre owned super white Innova Crysta Gx 8 seater AT diesel 2021(1 year 7 months old) from Ravindu Toyota UTrust, Bangalore. I was planning to buy a new Crysta but unfortunately Toyota has stopped manufacturing AT models so had to go with the pre owned.

This one has done 23k on odo, used by a lady doctor which she exchanged for hycross.
Seat covers have been changed to tan and black combination as seen in ZX variant and the wooden finish work has also been done to the interiors. So the interior feels like ZX. The car is still under company warranty and I’m getting extra 2 years Toyota Certified Used Car warranty from Toyota Utrust.
The car is very well maintained and according to the service history, no dent or scratch repair is done till now, only the car had been brought for regular service. I found no scratch or dent anywhere on the vehicle even after searching for a long time.

The quoted price was ₹25L but we finalised it for ₹23.85L considering the demand for Gx 8 str AT variant which is less driven and under warranty.

We are taking the delivery tomorrow, so I would like to ask the team-bhpians, what are the things that I need to check before taking the delivery and whether the deal is good or bad?

Thank you.

[sandeepmohan]

Originally Posted by jav

Crysta uses AI shift in normal D mode which is supposed to learn and adapt to driving style instead of shifting at fixed programmed shift points like a normal AT but i dont know if its the optimization or the unpredictable traffic which causes it to just rev too much at times, but in S mode AI is disabled and it behaves like a normal AT.

Lets be clear, there is no Artificial Intelligence going on with this gearbox. This method of adapting to driving style has been around from the time we had the Mitsubishi Lancer 1.8 Invex AT. The Innova isn't so advanced for it to see the road ahead and decide the ideal position of the AT gearbox. The gearbox responds in line with most torque converters out there. What alters its behavior is the end user input, deciding what Mode to use on the Gearbox as well as Driving Mode, combined with the data it receives from the engine regarding load. Taking the car Off Eco mode alone improves the way the gearbox responds. You are no longer coasting out of control.

[Dr.Car]

Originally Posted by sandeepmohan

Lets be clear, there is no Artificial Intelligence going on with this gearbox. This method of adapting to driving style has been around from the time we had the Mitsubishi Lancer 1.8 Invex AT. The Innova isn't so advanced for it to see the road ahead and decide the ideal position of the AT gearbox. The gearbox responds in line with most torque converters out there. What alters its behavior is the end user input, deciding what Mode to use on the Gearbox as well as Driving Mode, combined with the data it receives from the engine regarding load. Taking the car Off Eco mode alone improves the way the gearbox responds. You are no longer coasting out of control.

If what you are saying is true then why does the official owner's manual (Pictures in previous posts) mentions AI shift? Also, it specifically mentions that this AI shift thing is disabled when the car is put into S mode. That surely means that there is some tweaking involved when we shift from D to S.

Also, I have personally observed better mileage after using S mode on Highway and in City traffic which can be explained by the difference in upshifting and downshifting. Your thoughts please....

[sandeepmohan]

Originally Posted by Dr.Car

If what you are saying is true then why does the official owner's manual (Pictures in previous posts) mentions AI shift?

You are right about what is in the manual and its clearly stated on their Website too. They are going too far with using the term 'AI'. Note from that link, you find a demonstration using a 2014 RAV4.

'S', as already mentioned is a Sequential shift. You can leave the car in 'S' and drive or choose to do the gear shifts yourself. Its also indicating what gear you are in whereas in 'D' you don't know that.

This video explains whats happening under 'S' mode. Note that they don't say AI anywhere when its under 'D'.

If 'AI' were really at play here, you should get better fuel economy in 'D'.

Link

[Dr.Car]

Originally Posted by sandeepmohan

You are right about what is in the manual and its clearly stated on their Website too. They are going too far with using the term 'AI'. Note from that link, you find a demonstration using a 2014 RAV4.

'S', as already mentioned is a Sequential shift. You can leave the car in 'S' and drive or choose to do the gear shifts yourself. Its also indicating what gear you are in whereas in 'D' you don't know that.

This video explains whats happening under 'S' mode. Note that they don't say AI anywhere when its under 'D'.

If 'AI' were really at play here, you should get better fuel economy in 'D'.

Link

Well, I do understand your point but please have a look at this -:

Firstly, we can't see which gear the car is in S mode. It just shows the gear range. So, if I use the S6 mode, it's essentially the same as driving in D mode. That's what the video also says.

Secondly, as you mentioned about fuel efficiency in the D mode, that is the exact point we were discussing about in the previous posts. One of the gentleman here stated that he was getting much better fuel efficiency while using the car in S6 mode. He explained it on the basis of difference in upshifts and downshifts in S and D mode.

Even though there might not be much of the AI thing in D mode but it is totally true that the gearbox behaves a little differently than S6. Somehow, while in D mode, whenever you press the accelerator even with a light foot, the transmission downshifts which causes reduced fuel efficiency. Whereas, in S6, the downshifts occur only when the car is near lugging thereby increasing the fuel efficiency.

[Kosfactor]

Originally Posted by Dr.Car

Even though there might not be much of the AI thing in D mode but it is totally true that the gearbox behaves a little differently than S6. Somehow, while in D mode, whenever you press the accelerator even with a light foot, the transmission downshifts which causes reduced fuel efficiency. Whereas, in S6, the downshifts occur only when the car is near lugging thereby increasing the fuel efficiency.

Can you have someone else drive the vehicle and see if it behaves differently?

Aisin transmission would probably know who is driving and adjusts accordingly, perhaps its used to an aggressive driving style you have Vs someone else who drives in a gentler manner.

Driving in a higher gear than appropriate will not increase efficiency - more engine load \ torque demand requires more fuel to be burned.

[Dr.Car]

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

Can you have someone else drive the vehicle and see if it behaves differently?

Aisin transmission would probably know who is driving and adjusts accordingly, perhaps its used to an aggressive driving style you have Vs someone else who drives in a gentler manner.

Driving in a higher gear than appropriate will not increase efficiency - more engine load \ torque demand requires more fuel to be burned.

Yeah! I did have my chauffer drive the car and he really drives in a very sedate manner (Though I am also not a very aggressive driver). He was able to extract a much better fuel efficiency and it was the first time I saw a reading of 17 Km/l on the MID. The maximum I had seen till now was 15 only.

Can’t figure out what it is but the quote below seems like the most probable reasoning.

Originally Posted by jav

Crysta uses AI shift in normal D mode which is supposed to learn and adapt to driving style instead of shifting at fixed programmed shift points like a normal AT but i dont know if its the optimization or the unpredictable traffic which causes it to just rev too much at times, but in S mode AI is disabled and it behaves like a normal AT.

Coming to S6 mode just shift to S mode and push the gear front 2 times to go to S6 from S4. S6 is basically D mode without the AI.

In this mode it doesnt unlock or downshift until it starts near to lugging so we are actually using more of the torque if driven with a light foot especially when going slightly uphill or climbing a flvover itll continue same gear unless its too steep or if throttle is pressed more than usual, this is not the case with D mode which will unlock the TC and make the car rev too much which wastes fuel and causes excessive heat ( ive seen torque converter reaching almost 100c just when overtaking on a long flvover for a few seconds when its unlocked and same scenario its 75c with locked in S6 mode)

Same goes with eco mode apart from extremely short drives i have always had better fuel economy on normal mode than in eco for example my normal drive in city traffic with similar traffic pattern i get 8.5 to 9 in eco and 10.5 to 11.2 in normal. i only use eco when in stop and go traffic cause its smoother.

[sandeepmohan]

Originally Posted by Dr.Car

.Even though there might not be much of the AI thing in D mode but it is totally true that the gearbox behaves a little differently than S6. Somehow, while in D mode, whenever you press the accelerator even with a light foot, the transmission downshifts which causes reduced fuel efficiency. Whereas, in S6, the downshifts occur only when the car is near lugging thereby increasing the fuel efficiency.

Something does not add up. It should be the opposite to what you are saying. Lugging isn't good and should lead to increased fuel consumption.

Its hard to say whats going on in your case. You should observe what the gearbox does under different drive modes. I know the Innova has an Eco, Normal (or nothing selected) and Power Modes. I have not used Power Mode. I found Eco mode quite annoying. Normal mode was just right and the gearbox shift points were perfect in 'D' selector on the gearbox.