[abhi7013]

Originally Posted by aryayush

Like I said in my post, I'm talking about the automatic variants because those are the only ones I'm interested in (particularly in this car, where even the official review says that the automatic is the better of the two transmission setups on offer), and they are severely crippled in the safety department. You don't get four of the six airbags, ESP, TC and hill descent control in the automatics.

Agree that few safety features are missing. But would like to point out that airbags aren't missing in the automatic. The auto gear box was not compatible with the various safety feature mechanisms as the systems could not communicate.

For a layman, these points don't matter. If there's no feature, there's no feature. Period. But for us, its always good to understand why things are so!
As you can see, airbags are not in the picture so it would be great if you edit your post accordingly which may unnecessarily misguide readers. Thank you!

[aryayush]

Leaving aside the ad hominem attacks, is there a good reason why the Hexa needs 350 mm (about 14 inches) more space to complete a turn compared to the Innova (which itself is unwieldy in dense city traffic) when it is only 50mm (2 inches) longer and 75mm (3 inches) wider? The how and why does not ultimately matter, of course, but I would love to understand the physics behind it, if someone can explain it.

Also, why is a petrol engine not on offer? Given how well priced this car is, I have a feeling one of the major reasons it is failing to shake up the market is the lack of a petrol burner.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

@ Torquedo

Weight has nothing much to do with safety, not necessarily. We have seen how the 2 ton behemoth Scorpio fared badly in the Global NCAP crash tests, whereas the 850 something Kg Etios fared well.

TATA Zest weighs a lot more than the Etios and it had an unstable structure too! TATA corrected it later on though and kudos to them for that. I would trust the Hexa to be a safe vehicle, but no one can really be sure unless it's tested.

That said, weight does not compensate for the lack of airbags. The statement made is not only naive and ignorant, but very rude as well.

Originally Posted by aryayush

Like I said in my post, I'm talking about the automatic variants because those are the only ones I'm interested in (particularly in this car, where even the official review says that the automatic is the better of the two transmission setups on offer), and they are severely crippled in the safety department. You don't get four of the six airbags, ESP, TC and hill descent control in the automatics.

Hexa AT does come with 6 airbags. Agreed ESP and Traction Control are good safety features and its sad that the AT misses out on those.

Hill descent control is not a safety feature though. It's used in offroading where you need to come down rough surfaces slowly without depending on the brakes (causing a skid). It's perfectly fine that this feature is limited to the 4WD variant.

Perhaps you're referring to hill hold? Which is a good safety feature on the automatics.

Originally Posted by aryayush

Leaving aside the ad hominem attacks, is there a good reason why the Hexa needs 350 mm (about 14 inches) more space to complete a turn compared to the Innova (which itself is unwieldy in dense city traffic) when it is only 50mm (2 inches) longer and 75mm (3 inches) wider? The how and why does not ultimately matter, of course, but I would love to understand the physics behind it, if someone can explain it.

Also, why is a petrol engine not on offer? Given how well priced this car is, I have a feeling one of the major reasons it is failing to shake up the market is the lack of a petrol burner.

Petrol variants don't sell in such huge cars, including the Innova. Innova came out with the petrol variant only due to the diesel ban in Delhi.

I believe the lack of sales (as compared to Innova and XUV 5OO) has got nothing to do with the lack of a petrol variant. As I have mentioned quite a few times earlier, the pricing was optimistic (though not a disaster like the Aria) at launch and now been corrected under the GST guise. Undercutting the XUV 5OO by 50k or more could have ensured a lot more sales stolen from the Mahindra. There is no use benchmarking the Innova, as most people buying it won't consider the Indian brands as competition.

[aryayush]

Originally Posted by wilful

A small correction in what you mentioned - the XTA variant does indeed get 6 airbags and not 2.

Originally Posted by wilful

Hexa AT does come with 6 airbags.

Originally Posted by abhi7013

But would like to point out that airbags aren't missing in the automatic.

Originally Posted by abhi7013

As you can see, airbags are not in the picture so it would be great if you edit your post accordingly which may unnecessarily misguide readers. Thank you!

Unfortunately, the window of opportunity where I could do that has passed, but thank you for correcting me. I guess I misread that bit when going through the brochure. That does significantly negate my criticism of its lack of safety features.

Originally Posted by abhi7013

The auto gear box was not compatible with the various safety feature mechanisms as the systems could not communicate.

Hmm, is that something particular to this torque converter, because if I am not wrong, there are plenty of cars with ESP systems that are torque converter automatics?

Originally Posted by wilful

Hill descent control is not a safety feature though. It's used in offroading where you need to come down rough surfaces slowly without depending on the brakes (causing a skid). It's perfectly fine that this feature is limited to the 4WD variant.

Perhaps you're referring to hill hold? Which is a good safety feature on the automatics.

No, I understood that HHC was standard on the automatics, and HDC was missing. Thanks for explaining what HDC does. Since I often have to travel to the hills of Darjeeling and Sikkim, I can imagine a few situations where it would be a handy feature to have, but in no way does its absence take away from the safety credentials of the car.

To be fair, even the lack of ESP is fine, given the significantly lower price you’re paying for the car (in comparison to the Innova), and how rare it still is among cars in India. The car I intend to purchase in lieu of the Hexa (the S-Cross) does not have ESP either, as much as I would have loved to have it.

Originally Posted by wilful

Petrol variants don't sell in such huge cars, including the Innova. Innova came out with the petrol variant only due to the diesel ban in Delhi.

I believe the lack of sales (as compared to Innova and XUV 5OO) has got nothing to do with the lack of a petrol variant. As I have mentioned quite a few times earlier, the pricing was optimistic (though not a disaster like the Aria) at launch and now been corrected under the GST guise. Undercutting the XUV 5OO by 50k or more could have ensured a lot more sales stolen from the Mahindra.

That’s the reason I wanted a petrol motor. If you could have this car within a budget of Rs. 15 lac on road, with all the bells and whistles on offer, it would be quite irresistible—and that would be possible with a petrol engine, wouldn’t it? It’s still a shame about that turning radius though.

[kbishwa]

Originally Posted by RavenAvi

Thanks to Mohammed Azharuddin for sharing this!

Attachment 1659676

Attachment 1659677

Attachment 1659678

Attachment 1659679

It'll not be wrong if we call such comparisons a "A Self Fulfilling Prophecy!"

The comparison is clearly lopsided. With due respect, we expect at least from Senior & Distinguished BHPians (including supports) to bring forward unbiased opinions and stories as we fellow BHPians believe them a lot!

[Nissan1180]

Originally Posted by aryayush

Leaving aside the ad hominem attacks, is there a good reason why the Hexa needs 350 mm (about 14 inches) more space to complete a turn compared to the Innova (which itself is unwieldy in dense city traffic) when it is only 50mm (2 inches) longer and 75mm (3 inches) wider? The how and why does not ultimately matter, of course, but I would love to understand the physics behind it, if someone can explain it.

Also, why is a petrol engine not on offer? Given how well priced this car is, I have a feeling one of the major reasons it is failing to shake up the market is the lack of a petrol burner.

If you have driven the Hexa already, it is a bit surprising that you find it difficult to drive. The turning radius depends on how the wheels are positioned, the overhang etc. A brief mathematical expression is given here.
The weight of the car may not ascertain safety, but the sheet metal thickness does. NCAP largely tests cars in an idealized setting where airbags will deploy. You might have read about so many accidents where the airbag did not get a chance to deploy. All you have in that situation is your car's body shell, and Tata makes really strong ones. Just talk to anyone who has experienced a minor hit from the back on an Etios vs. an Indigo. The Etios suffers serious damage while the Indigo has minor dents. You would perhaps not want to believe anecdotal evidence, but that will not change the fact that Tata makes strong body shells and that is why they are heavy. If I were to choose, I would anyday select a car that has a strong structure with 2 airbags over a car made from thin steel with 6.
Take a back to back test drive of the Hexa, SCross and Innova to see what suits you. Even if you try to not believe yourself, I am sure the Hexa would present itself as the most comfortable, safe and value for money choice.
How many Innova Petrols have you seen? I did not see any in Ahmedabad or Kolkata. They have bad resale value besides poor FE.
Coming back to the Hexa- does anyone know why the crash ratings are not available yet? I read somewhere that Tata has the most advanced crash testing facility in the country. Why do they take so long to get NCAP certified?

[RavenAvi]

Originally Posted by vsun

This info looks like Hexa promo. No offenses. It is just my personal feeling.

Originally Posted by mustang_shelby

Agreed. It also doesn't seem to be well informed.

Originally Posted by VKumar

No offense, but this looks like a sure shot biased comparo.

Guys,

This is a new training booklet shared by Tata for it's sales personnel staff, which was released a few days back (notice the separate PDF I have uploaded as an attachment in the same post?). As with all company-related sales presentations (not just Tata), the material given inside are mostly favouring their own products and highlight how a company salesman can present the product to the customers by highlighting features vis-a-vis it's immediate competition.

I had shared another similar PDF (Tata Hexa : Official Review) (called the "Hexa Premier League" in the company's internal circulation) issued by the company back in December 2016.

BHPians abhi7013 and arunramaswamy identified it correctly.

Originally Posted by abhi7013

Looking at the usage of logos, fonts, layouts and the tone in which the content is, it is very identical to the presentation which was circulated here some weeks back. That document was not at all meant for public view but as a reference for the sales personnel while speaking with the customers. Now as we all know, sales pitch deliberately overlooks minor positives of the opponents and glorifies their own products, conveniently ignoring the negative! Hence, looks biased, as it should be.

Originally Posted by arunramaswamy

What else do we expect from a Tata sales guy? Do we seriously expect them to give the positives of the competition thereby affecting Hexa sales? As such Hexa is struggling. I do not even want to get into the debate which is better. But XUV and Crysta sells more for some reason. I am not sure if these Comparisons would help them since, unlike budget customers, the premium segment customers do their own research. So they will know the pros and cons by themselves. They don't expect to here it from a sales guy.

Originally Posted by kbishwa

The comparison is clearly lopsided. With due respect, we expect at least from Senior & Distinguished BHPians (including supports) to bring forward unbiased opinions and stories as we fellow BHPians believe them a lot!

Quite clearly, this comparison (and the PDF booklet) wasn't created by me or by any independent party. This is a part of the sales training material which was provided by the company to it's field personnel.

I shared it so that you have an idea of how the company is promoting/intends to promote it's flagship product, whose initial sales haven't been as per expectations.

Before jumping the accusing guns, it is advised to check all facts related to a particular post.

[discoverwild]

Originally Posted by aryayush

Leaving aside the ad hominem attacks, is there a good reason why the Hexa needs 350 mm (about 14 inches) more space to complete a turn compared to the Innova (which itself is unwieldy in dense city traffic) when it is only 50mm (2 inches) longer and 75mm (3 inches) wider? The how and why does not ultimately matter, of course, but I would love to understand the physics behind it, if someone can explain it.

Also, why is a petrol engine not on offer? Given how well priced this car is, I have a feeling one of the major reasons it is failing to shake up the market is the lack of a petrol burner.

It has got to do with track width, wheelbase and wheel turn angle.

A 2.0L petrol engine is not readily available with Tata. Also the dynamics of scale of production and sales would never match up. As the industry moves more towards petrol engines based on emission norms, petrols might come to the fore. Also keep in mind, that this is a behemoth. Average Indian's first thought is always 'kitna deta hain'.

[kbishwa]

Probably the following Team BHP thread may clear something on safety of a car before we discuss it all again:

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...fest-cars.html

[mustang_shelby]

Originally Posted by RavenAvi

Guys,

Before jumping the accusing guns, it is advised to check all facts related to a particular post.

Dear RavenAvi,
Please do not take this personally. My comments were clearly regarding the material that was shared. It was very clear to me that this is not a comparison that you created.
I am sure it is ok to discuss the material that is shared for its correctness or otherwise.
Regards.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by RavenAvi

This is a new training booklet shared by Tata for it's sales personnel staff, which was released a few days back (notice the separate PDF I have uploaded as an attachment in the same post?).

Thanks Avi.

This infact shows the biggest blunder done by TATA in positioning the Hexa, against the XUV 5OO. I've said this earlier, but this material coming from the company itself proves it.

The XM / XMA variants are so barebones, they need to fight the W6 variants of the XUV. The XT / XTA variants are priced similar to the W10 variants.

What they forgot is the W8 which is the biggest selling variant in the XUV lineup. W10 offers sunroof and powered seats which are not present in the Hexa. And the sunroof is so obvious that the advantage is not missed even by children.

The lack of these options put the XT in direct competition with the W8, where it ends up with a price disadvantage. And the XM is too barebones to fight it either - missing out on basics such as alloy wheels. Could have atleast kept the music system as the highlight, but even that is only on the XT.

Some might argue that the quality is better, and I don't disagree. But there is no denying that the XUV 5OO is an established product in the market and when the price also favours it more (TATA corrected it now to similar levels post GST) it's easy to understand why the market swings in their favour.

[S.MJet]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

The lack of these options put the XT in direct competition with the W8, where it ends up with a price disadvantage.

XTA price disadvantage against W8 AT does not exists any more after GST price correction.

As per carwale ex-showroom Bangalore prices are:
XTA Rs 16.05L
W8 AT Rs 16.19L
W10 AT Rs 17.01L

XTA make a strong case now (unless carwale figures are incorrect).

[damodar]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

The XM / XMA variants are so barebones, they need to fight the W6 variants of the XUV. The XT / XTA variants are priced similar to the W10 variants.

The lack of these options put the XT in direct competition with the W8, where it ends up with a price disadvantage. And the XM is too barebones to fight it either - missing out on basics such as alloy wheels. Could have atleast kept the music system as the highlight, but even that is only on the XT.

Post GST the XM is cheaper by Rs 68000/- vs W6 and the XMA is cheaper by Rs 44000/- vs W6 AT both ex showroom. The audio system in these may not have a sub woofer but with a 8 speaker setup it sounds superb for a stock music system. Then both of them have segement first features like heated ORVMs, very useful in rain and rear window sunblinds.
XT, XTA, XT 4*4 are are at par with the equivalent W8 versions of XUV.

[abhi7013]

Frankly, I don't think it's right to expect Hexa's sales to cross or even reach that of the XUV. The latter is in the market for ages and the Indians are not risk takers. Old is better than going for a new. In fact, I feel Hexa's sales will never be able to cross the XUV or the Crysta's.
However, for us owners, more rare the car, more happy we are. Spotting it every other day would kind of take away the "new model" feeling as we see in XUV or Crysta. Coming across a Hexa is similar to spotting a rare species of bird and people whip out their cams (as we see in our owner's groups!).
Success can also be measured qualitatively: If a car is capable enough to make anyone smile upon looking at it or sitting inside no matter where (even the 3rd row in this case), the brand has pulled it off!
As for us, we are happy as long as the services are good (and they make us feel premium every time) and hope it remains the same!

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by S.MJet

XTA price disadvantage against W8 AT does not exists any more after GST price correction.

XTA make a strong case now (unless carwale figures are incorrect).

True. And I had mentioned in my post too. TATA corrected the same post GST.

However, I personally maintain that it should have gone further lower. A 50k difference with equivalent variants of XUV would have really hit the sweet spot with the market, and I had been saying this before the price announcement as well.

Not that the product is inferior in any ways, but only to undercut the established competition properly.

Originally Posted by damodar

Post GST the XM is cheaper by Rs 68000/- vs W6 and the XMA is cheaper by Rs 44000/- vs W6 AT both ex showroom.

XM on the other hand is priced well post GST rates.

Infact, I was shocked to note that the Hexa XM now comes cheaper than the base variant of Creta 1.6 in Bangalore, which is surely a segment lower IMO.