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Old 31st August 2020, 19:12   #31
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Default Re: Hyundai Venue iMT Review : Intelligent Manual Transmission without a clutch pedal

Great review, Aditya! This tech is dirt-cheap. In EMI terms, the monthly cost will work out to probably the cost of a Dominos cheese burst pizza. I think it's a good one for India, although not new at all. We've had posts on similar stuff before (example, this thread on AutoClutch (Autoclutch Review)), but they were all jugaad in nature and not as well-executed as Hyundai's IMT.

Whether it clicks or not depends on the marketing & showroom experience. Maruti's enormous promotional machinery did a fab job of popularising AMTs, paving the way for other car makers. Don't know if Hyundai will do the same? At least, the start wasn't good. It was announced back in July, but the information was limited & the media drives happened now, so many weeks later. In the interim, there was a whole lot of confusion, even among experts & BHPians! Let's see how things pan out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ant_vas View Post
After driving Dzire ZXi+AGS for close to 3 years i have to disagree with the way AMT is made out to be a horrible gear shifting option have!
I was talking to Maruti about the AMT not so far ago. They said something on the lines of "yes, we have been fine-tuning the AMT, but its a basic technology and has its limitations. While we have improved it, customer complaints are also lesser because they eventually get used to AMTs". It's the reason why, if someone buys a car with a suspension that is on the firmer side, they whine the most in the initial months. With time, they get used to it.

I drove the AMTs in the most recent Marutis. Yes, it has noticeably improved, but it is still too jerky for me and I'd never buy it.

Last edited by GTO : 31st August 2020 at 19:14.
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Old 31st August 2020, 20:07   #32
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Default Re: Hyundai Venue iMT Review : Intelligent Manual Transmission without a clutch pedal

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.aviansh View Post
[b]MT > PADDLE SHIFTERS >

Coming from conventional SHIFTSTICK’s, I’d say the most the enjoyable thing was playing with the clutch to alter the engine braking!
Yes, this cannot be done on an IMT. This is for the enthusiast/race driver. IMT is not for them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.aviansh View Post
Poor brakes were never an issue in an MT because all you needed was a couple of shift downs while pressing the brake and giving in ZERO clutch input! I really don’t know how an iMT would go about in such a situation.
IMT matches the revs to the selected gear. I think if you downshift gradually, it will still provide a measurable engine braking. But not as drastically as 5th to 2nd gear change kind of engine braking.

While I think engine braking can be used to get more slowing power, that is not an excuse for having poor brakes. Every car with any transmission ought to have superb brakes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jetsetgo08 View Post
But, why is no one ever recommending manual mode in AMT? Doesn't it make more sense esp. in cases where the car is driven by multiple drivers. Those not interested in shifting gears can use the auto, and those who want more control can use the manual mode in AMT.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ant_vas View Post
iMT is just the manual mode which is already available in AMT cars!
Cost is the big factor here. AMTs are more expensive than IMT. The MT vs. AMT price difference ~₹70K. The MT vs. IMT price difference ~₹25K. For people who always want to drive AMT in manual mode - they can save a good amount of money now by opting for IMT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ant_vas View Post
After driving Dzire ZXi+AGS for close to 3 years i have to disagree with the way AMT is made out to be a horrible gear shifting option have!
By no means AMTs are horrible, but in a comparison with all other Auto tranny tech, it is least preferred option. For a person who learnt driving recently and AMT being his/her first car - it is a great transmission innovation. It is only in comparison to other Auto transmission tech it falls short in some areas. Some of its characteristics are less desirable. That's it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ant_vas View Post
In AMT you get an added advantage of automatic downshift in manual mode if the RPM drops low for a particular gear! this is not available in iMT and the driver has to downshift or up shift manually all the time!
This is a valid point. On this aspect AMT scores 1up over IMT. Still it is not a big factor. IMT has normal gate (as the MT) for the gear movement. You can shift from any gear to any gear directly. In an AMT in manual mode, you have to shift it sequentially. 1-2-3-4-5 or reverse of that in the same order. So, it is not as difficult to downshift manually to any gear in IMT. Also, Venue has a gear suggestion display in its MID. The driver just has to always be in the recommended gear.



Quote:
Originally Posted by TaurusSHO View Post
I believe there are two kinds of people, it's either AT or MT. This "iMT" is trying to be both. Why would an AT guy go through the effort of shifting gears and why would a MT guy want to shift without the clutch?
Why would an AT guy opt for an IMT? It is for people who want the convenience of an Auto, but cannot spend ~₹1lac more for a CVT/TC Automatic/DCT. It is somewhat half-the-way in terms of convenience and cost-effectiveness. There is a big segment of customers who fall in this category. IMT is for them. IMT is even cheaper than AMT. Before IMT, the options they had in their affordability was MT and AMT. Now IMT sits in between and removes the clutch worries.

So from a cost point of view:
<--- Cheaper MT --- IMT -- AMT ---- CVT ----- TC Auto --- DCT Expensive --->

Yes, MT purists will not like IMT, that's for sure. Especially, when MTs are cheaper than IMT.

Last edited by manjunathkl : 31st August 2020 at 20:12. Reason: Typo
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Old 31st August 2020, 20:13   #33
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Default Re: Hyundai Venue iMT Review : Intelligent Manual Transmission without a clutch pedal

Wow!
Amazing review. All the crucial points were very well laid out to understand this gearbox behaviour.


Now onto the gearbox. Hyundai/Kia are getting lots of praise from enthusiasts from around the world. Mind you, Hyundai/Kia were never an enthusiasts favourite, but the way they evolved over time has raised some serious eyebrows of petrolheads.

What do we expect next? Spring less suspension and planted ride? Well the latter will be a tough one for Hyundai/Kia for sure.

Jokes apart, Kudos to the Korean manufacturer.
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Old 31st August 2020, 21:03   #34
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Default Re: Hyundai Venue iMT Review : Intelligent Manual Transmission without a clutch pedal

I have driven the Swift diesel AMT for around 300 kms. I liked the AMT because there was no shifting to be done. But you had to be extremely patient with it to have smooth ride.

AMT will not be an issue for those who have not lived with a proper automatic transmission. There is no two ways about it. As soon as you start giving it the beans, the head nod effect starts appearing especially in the first couple of gears.

If this iMT can limit that and going by the review it does, it would be a very good alternative to the AMT. Having to change gears is a pain but I guess we will get used to it. The main selling point will always be the price though.

I understand that people who 'love' manuals will not like this one bit but there are quite a few who just can't drive a manual as smooth as even the AMT. Either the clutch release will be hurried or they will not be in the right gear all the time. iMT will address that and hopefully give good clutch life as well.

Always good to see new stuff being introduced in the market. Hopefully that will be the case for more automatic transmissions as well.

Great review explaining all the features and wonderful pictures too. Thank you!

They have proper brake pedals from the Automatic transmission cars. How difficult is it to make it available in the iMT or is it by design?
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Hyundai Venue iMT Review : Intelligent Manual Transmission without a clutch pedal-19.jpg  


Last edited by SchumiFan : 31st August 2020 at 21:10.
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Old 1st September 2020, 10:01   #35
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Default Re: Hyundai Venue iMT Review : Intelligent Manual Transmission without a clutch pedal

Thanks Aditya for a comprehensive review of the new technology offered by Hyundai. For anyone with engineering interests, this is something quite interesting. For me - I still feel AMT makes more sense overall rather than the iMT which is 50% AMT. The AMT does offer a manual mode with sequential shifting which is good enough & in fact simpler than the iMT's gizmos about sensing that the gear stick has moved a bit to start disengaging the clutch in anticipation.

For folks like me who have the habit to have left hand on the gear stick - this gimmick of sensing the stick movement to disengage clutch might be quite tricky to calibrate. Also the way I understand it - Since the gearbox won't downshift - the car will keep riding the clutch and eventually keep the clutch disengaged forcefully while the driver doesn't downshift at low RPMs from higher gears. An AMT does downshift for safety even in manual mode below a threshold RPM.

Overall while an excellent technical project, realistically I feel iMT is most useful only for those who are good at manual gear-shifting & their need is for a clutch-less car due to issues with the left leg/knee that cause discomfort. For anyone else - AT/DCT/AMT are far more practical & convenient.
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Old 1st September 2020, 10:14   #36
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Default Re: Hyundai Venue iMT Review : Intelligent Manual Transmission without a clutch pedal

A noob question- how does the clutch engage when you shift a gear here? If I remember correctly, the autoclutch accessory that was popular (for people who didn't like using the clutch) had a button which had to be pressed to be pressed for changing a gear. How does the disengagement of the gear and engine happen instantaneously? Isn't there a lag time for engaging the clutch? I tried reading the recent articles but the operating principle was not explained properly.
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Old 1st September 2020, 10:24   #37
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Default Re: Hyundai Venue iMT Review : Intelligent Manual Transmission without a clutch pedal

Thanks for the review. Personally, I'd never buy this as I fear it'll mess up my muscle memory and co-ordination big time. I can easily switch between AT and MT, but I doubt I'll ever be the naysayer who'd change his mind.

How'd the Indian government classify this car if they introduce a restricted drivers license for automatics?

Quote surprised that Hyundai chose the Venue for displaying this technology. I'd normally expect it on cheaper cars like the Santro.
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Originally Posted by neo_narender View Post
There is a caution that says not to press brake pedal by mistake during gearshift.
My understanding is that the warning conveys "don't slam on the brakes when shifting gears and accelerating."
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Old 1st September 2020, 10:30   #38
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Default Re: Hyundai Venue iMT Review : Intelligent Manual Transmission without a clutch pedal

Quote:
But if you want to have a smooth experience of gear shift without the jerkiness, all you need to do is just lift your foot off the A pedal for a second and there will be up shift without any jerk (just like in iMT as suggested by OP of this thread). the gear shift usually happen around 2200 RPM
This is not true for all AMTs. Grand i10 Nios AMT would not up shift if you lift your foot off A pedal at around 2000 rpm. So I guess Hyundai is not deploying this logic. Their AMTs are smoother compared to competition though.
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Old 1st September 2020, 10:55   #39
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Default Re: Hyundai Venue iMT Review : Intelligent Manual Transmission without a clutch pedal

Quote:
Originally Posted by manjunathkl View Post
So from a cost point of view:
<--- Cheaper MT --- IMT -- AMT ---- CVT ----- TC Auto --- DCT Expensive --->
This is a good summary and hopefully Hyundai brings this in the market market cars such as the Santro soon. I would surely consider this as a good option as compared to the AMT.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mayurhuria View Post
Wow!
Now onto the gearbox. Hyundai/Kia are getting lots of praise from enthusiasts from around the world. Mind you, Hyundai/Kia were never an enthusiasts favourite, but the way they evolved over time has raised some serious eyebrows of petrolheads.
While I agree they are evolving in the right direction, the braking issues still seem to be a cause for worry. Hope they fix those basics as well sooner than later.
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Old 1st September 2020, 11:00   #40
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Default Re: Hyundai Venue iMT Review : Intelligent Manual Transmission without a clutch pedal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinhard View Post
For me - I still feel AMT makes more sense overall rather than the iMT which is 50% AMT. The AMT does offer a manual mode with sequential shifting which is good enough & in fact simpler than the iMT's gizmos about sensing that the gear stick has moved a bit to start disengaging the clutch in anticipation.

For folks like me who have the habit to have left hand on the gear stick - this gimmick of sensing the stick movement to disengage clutch might be quite tricky to calibrate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cessna182 View Post
A noob question- how does the clutch engage when you shift a gear here? If I remember correctly, the autoclutch accessory that was popular (for people who didn't like using the clutch) had a button which had to be pressed to be pressed for changing a gear.
Coincidentally my post just before yours, touched upon the answer to your question. There is a sensor in the iMT gear stick. It senses that the gear stick has started moving & upon a small % movement (threshold preset) - it decides that the driver is going in for a gear shift & disengages the clutch. Calibration seems to be done well considering all reviewers found it working well and nobody complained.

However in the long run, I feel there is simply too much hanging on this sensor (Just like in case of the AMT's manual mode, but in case of iMT - without any redundancy since there is no full auto mode). In a car - its one more point of possible technical failure. The one reason for which I like simple old-school cars with minimal electronic aids is - there are that many lesser points of potential failure!

Last edited by Reinhard : 1st September 2020 at 11:10.
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Old 1st September 2020, 11:40   #41
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Default Re: Hyundai Venue iMT Review : Intelligent Manual Transmission without a clutch pedal

Nothing against iMTs but nothing against AMTs as well.

I have been living with a Diesel Nexon AMT for last 2+ years and did not once find the need to put it into manual mode. Agreed there is a bit of a gap and lull between gear shifts but its no where as bad as is made out to be.

iMT sounds interesting but definitely not to my taste. On City runs as well as long journeys I need my left hand to rest and not change gears like Michael Schumaker every 5 seconds. With MT the maunal clutch work prevents from frequent shifts but in iMT that is no longer an issue.

Also a question on iMT operation. Lets say you are on an incline (office / Malls parking) and moving bumper to bumper. Does your gear always need to stay in 1st ? Moving to Neutral and back to 1st isnt an option if you are not allowed to change gears while applying brake. In my AMT I need to slot into first with my brake pedal pressed and even then a generous use of hand brake is needed to prevent roll back. in iMT can gear be changed at standstill with hand brake engaged ?
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Old 1st September 2020, 11:54   #42
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Default Re: Hyundai Venue iMT Review : Intelligent Manual Transmission without a clutch pedal

Great review!

I myself test drove this Venu 1L turbo petrol with iMT for 30 minutes or so; and some 15-20km in Bangalore traffic and absolutely loved it. Coming from a manual transmission and driving a TC currently, it took me 5 minutes to get used to it for daily city traffic. The calibration is spot on, never in that 30 min the gear shift was jerky or any delay in acceleration, even in some cases when I had to press break to avoid auto rickshaws and immediately up shifted and pressed the A paddle. Engine is eager to rev and drivability is super, even in bumper to bumper traffic. And 3rd gear in this iMT is like an automatic, the range is so vast, in normal traffic, you can drive it in 3rd gear form approx 25 kmph to 80kmph without issue. According to me its better to save some money and buy iMT than buying an AMT.

Who would ask for iMT as their first preference? I guess, at least for initial days, it would be by word of mouth or dealer push for a TD and they like it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by charanreddy View Post

Also a question on iMT operation. Lets say you are on an incline (office / Malls parking) and moving bumper to bumper. Does your gear always need to stay in 1st ? Moving to Neutral and back to 1st isnt an option if you are not allowed to change gears while applying brake. In my AMT I need to slot into first with my brake pedal pressed and even then a generous use of hand brake is needed to prevent roll back. in iMT can gear be changed at standstill with hand brake engaged ?
In bumper to bumper traffic you need not put it in neutral, keep the break pressed, when stand still the clutch would be disengaged. The car never stalls. To move the car you need to be in 1st or 2nd gear only. It creeps in 1st gear, so in smaller slop it works as hill hold and it did not roll back while I test drove it (don't remember iMT has Hill hold assist or not).

Last edited by dipdawiz : 1st September 2020 at 12:18.
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Old 1st September 2020, 12:25   #43
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Default Re: Hyundai Venue iMT Review : Intelligent Manual Transmission without a clutch pedal

Initially, I was a bit doubtful of the use case for this, but now a lot of things are clear and I can definitely see a use case for this.
  • I drive a manual in city's bumper to bumper traffic everyday. Everybody knows that the biggest problem in such a scenario is the clutch. For my constraint budget of manual + 20 thousand rupees, I get rid of this problem with this IMT.
  • The enthusiast on budget would choose a manual anyday, the enthusiast with money would choose the DCT. An enthusiast would never choose an AMT/CVT, this IMT also adds to that list.
  • The IMT rev matches while downshifting, how many manual drivers do that. The downshifts would definitely be smoother than how most of the manual drivers downshift.
  • The cars that will come with this iMT are more city commuters than anything else, so this kind of makes sense.
  • My wife doesn't want to drive the car because she is afraid she will stall it in peak traffic or on a slope and wants me to get an autobox. So if I don't have the budget to stretch, this IMT can very well take care of that problem as well.
I think this would find buyers if it is priced very close to the manual variants. Let's see how it holds on in long term.
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Old 1st September 2020, 12:31   #44
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Default Re: Hyundai Venue iMT Review : Intelligent Manual Transmission without a clutch pedal

Quote:
Originally Posted by dipdawiz View Post
Great review!


In bumper to bumper traffic you need not put it in neutral, keep the break pressed, when stand still the clutch would be disengaged. The car never stalls. To move the car you need to be in 1st or 2nd gear only. It creeps in 1st gear, so in smaller slop it works as hill hold and it did not roll back while I test drove it (don't remember iMT has Hill hold assist or not).
So in may case I used to work out of RMZ Ecospace and in peak times you can spend upto 30 mins just on the parking ramp

In iMT, I will not be able to use hand brake and chill. My foot needs to be on the brake and 1st gear engaged the whole time ?
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Old 1st September 2020, 13:06   #45
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Default Re: Hyundai Venue iMT Review : Intelligent Manual Transmission without a clutch pedal

Quote:
Originally Posted by charanreddy View Post
So in may case I used to work out of RMZ Ecospace and in peak times you can spend upto 30 mins just on the parking ramp

In iMT, I will not be able to use hand brake and chill. My foot needs to be on the brake and 1st gear engaged the whole time ?
I can feel your pain

I did not get into that sort of situation while test driving and did not even occur to me to test something similar. Not sure what would be the behavior when hand break is engaged and break is released in 1st gear while stand still. However I guess, as it is a manual transmission, you have to put it into neutral if you do not want to keep the break pressed.

Can someone else confirm the behavior?
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