[techmotor]

Originally Posted by Poitive

Steering : HPS vs EPS
(HPS currently on a Tata Harrier+Safari, Nissan Kicks and EPS on most others)

I write this because I repeatedly see the Hydraulic Power Steering being misunderstood (especially for the Tata Twins), and judged mainly based on how heavy it felt, and others being light.
………

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

This vehicle's steering is a work in progress item( like almost every other item on that car) , one day it will get an EPS and that will solve most of its problems with the steering. One day it will get a better rear suspension too, better engine, better actual ground clearance , better infotainment etc etc.

……….

The torque steer on this is at a level I have not encountered in ANY vehicle - a function of its suspension geometry that is also responsible for it's inconsistent steering (EPS can fix all those problems) .

I think implementation is key here irrespective of whether HPS or EPS is used. Having experienced the excellent HPS in earlier Ford cars like Ikon, Figo/Fiesta Classic, I can vouch for the immense pleasure/satisfaction it gives from an enthusiastic point of view. Yes these are relatively heavy compared to EPS but to each their own. I have TD’d Safari and didn’t find the low speed steering as heavy. In other words, people coming from an HPS setup, say Duster, will feel right at home. Also as @poitive mentioned, you’ll get used to it in a matter of time.

However, as @kosfactor mentioned, the Safari steering felt like a work in progress. Despite being an HPS I didn’t get the wow factor and was left with wanting for more. Also, most manufacturers are moving to EPS and hence i don’t think it makes sense to have HPS anymore. But does that mean we enthusiasts have to live with lifeless EPS? Hell No!!! Thanks to advancements in technology, we can still have a really good steering feedback with EPS. Fiat and Ford had implemented gem of an EPS steering a decade back. Coupled with traction control, ESC, damping etc. it is indeed possible to deliver as good as an experience as HPS depending on various factors such as speed, road undulations etc. As I said earlier, implementation is the key. Jeep Compass/Meridian did a wonderful job in this aspect. I felt XUV 700 steering response at low speed excellent (light weight) and at high speed just OK.
I really wish TML makes the implementation perfect/near perfect with whichever approach they choose. And TML, please don’t bring ADAS with the rumoured facelift by this year end.

[Poitive]

Originally Posted by techmotor

1. I think implementation is key here irrespective of whether HPS or EPS is used.
2. Despite being an HPS I didn’t get the wow factor and was left with wanting for more. Also, most manufacturers are moving to EPS and hence i don’t think it makes sense to have HPS anymore.
3. it is indeed possible to deliver as good as an experience as HPS depending on various factors such as speed, road undulations etc. As I said earlier, implementation is the key. Jeep Compass/Meridian did a wonderful job in this aspect. I felt XUV 700 steering response at low speed excellent (light weight) and at high speed just OK.

1. Very much agree that implementation is key, as indicated in my quoted post too - "Much of course would depend on the steering design of the specific car in question." That said, we also need to keep in mind the inherent positives and negatives systems have. (More in point 4 below).

2. HPS will often have a somewhat softer movement around the centre and they feel a little less direct on that front, taking away a bit of the quickness one often gets from an EPS (more apparent if one is used to a quick EPS). That softness has it's positives too for consumer cars, but is a different topic. What is good on the Harrier+Safari+Kicks is the feedback - became more obvious to me after driving them a bit more, and more prominent on somewhat broken roads. If I end up in a situation needing a risky manoeuvre on a at broken road to save an accident, would I choose a Harrier/Kicks or an XUV? Hell, surely the former. Yes, even over the Compass, unless perhaps agility was the only parameter.

3. As I had noted in my longish report on the Jeep TD here the steering of the Compass does indeed feel very good. It is quick, and weighs up well. What I could feel from the drives is that a lot of what is felt good about the steering has also really to do with the weight distribution and the suspension. It is very direct and matches the agility of the overall setup. However, it is not really what I would call a communicative steeing. For that I found the Harrier and Kicks way better. (check the kicks drive linked in the EPS vs HPS post).

4. A part of the feedback can be improved by a steering rack+column with less flex, but the inherent issue with an EPS is the damping effect of a motor attached to the steering rack/column. That takes away from the feecback one gets. This is why Electro-Hydraulic systems (as mentioned in my post just before yours) are worked out.

All the above said, I do see the market moving away from HPS, as it is more expensive and the consumer is more willing to pay for the convenience of an EPS, which is cheaper, to make a bit more fuel effecient (only a tiny bit), and the average Joe sees as new tech and hence favours it. What I see on the forum, there is almost no talk about steering feedback anymore (unlike the old days), and steering focus is almost always on the lightness at low speeds and weighting up at higher (which is why my original post on this topic ). So, if it is not valued on an enthuaist forum (understandably also due to improvements in EPS - but those cars are very few - and surely not the XUV700), one can hardly expect the market at large to value it and pay for it.

EDIT: Just saw the Torque steer part. The EPS would not really 'solve' things by changing steering geometry which is based more on the engine placement in a FWD resulting in unequal drive shafts and their differing angles at he wheels etc. What it would really do is to mask the torque steer by increasing torque-assist on the steering column when torque steer is expected - yet another thing to isolate the driver from what is happeing at the tyres. Another disconnection good for the average consumer.

[revved_up]

Folks,

Has anyone got their TPMS updated after rotating the tyres? I am told the service center looks for the bar code stickers on each tyre to identify the unique id of the sensor on each tyre.

I had got these stickers removed while taking delivery. Actually i had got all stickers removed from the car, since i like it that way.

Will the service center have to deflate the tyres to note the ids from the sensor now?
Also, can the remapping of tpms(after rotation) be done outside ASC as well?

Thanks!

[NitSat]

Originally Posted by NitSat

Dear friends.
Like most Safaris, mine also has a left pull.
I asked the service guys to rectify it . After wheel balancing, the issue persisted.

Dear friends, this is to update further regarding the left pull and steering vibrations issue highlighted by me

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

Now redo the alignment as well as balancing and you should be good - repeat every 5K.

Originally Posted by Poitive

1.


2. Maybe you meant wheel alignment? To take care of a car pulling in one direction, one needs wheel alignment and not balancing.

3. This is a classic sign of wheel balancing being off.

I'm unsure if the right guys are handling it. Might be worth trying another service centre or a reputed tyre shop.

Originally Posted by NotanF1driver

Hey NitSat. I was in the same postion sometime back. The car came out from its first month service from Tata with a left pull prevailing and with a vibration in the 70 - 90 kmph. I had asked the service centre to do a wheel alignment and I got an alignment report, but was not charged anything for it.

With no results on the alignment done by Tata service, I did not want to waste a day trying the same route. Instead, I took it to a a tyre shop and they fixed it for me. The left pull also went off I guess (it no longer bothers me, at least, which is what I want).

Would recommend you to take it to a trusted wheel and tyre shop to get it done.

As recommended by our esteemed friends unanimously, I decided to take Safari to reputed tyre shop in western suburbs of Mumbai. This shop is highly recommended on our TBH forum as well and I have personally had great experience with them .
After taking a trial , the mechanic was confident of sorting out the issue. He said the alignment was way off the mark and the wheel balancing was required as well.

After one and half hour, I got the car back . I could not test drive the car on the weekday at high speeds ( remember steering vibration was only beyond the speed of 80) . And knowing how TML people messed it up last time, I was bit sceptical myself.

Today being Sunday, I took Safari for a bit of a spin . And Voila. The issue has completely gone . No steering vibrations at higher speeds. Also the left side pull was contained to a great extent. I even felt the steering was a tad bit lighter at lower speeds. Hope it stays like this for longer time

Thanks to @kosafactor , @poitive and @NotonF1driver for your valuable inputs.

I have completed 10 k with my Safari and I must say , it’s a great vehicle. The highway manners , the high speed stability and ability to just absorb bad patches of roads of this car are simply superb. I am thoroughly enjoying my ownership of this beast.

However I felt the service needs a lot of improvement. Especially regarding the left pull which has been bugging a lot of Harrier/ Safari owners.

Cheers

[chinkara]

I took a test drive over the weekend.
Wife and son liked the car.

Kids were ok in the rear seat - probably not on long distance drives, but they felt they'd be ok in city drives. I was also ok with luggage space with the last row folded - the incline will not matter IMO.

I had 2 issues:
1. Heaviness of the steering initially, as reported by many here
2. Strangely I could not find a comfortable driving position. Even with the seat at max height, my knees were part folded. Also (and maybe as a corollary) there was a lack of under thigh support. I felt this was far worse than Storme. I am 6'2" with fairly heavy build, but this was more uncomfortable than even my earlier Wagon R.

Of course, it may be that I would find the right position in a longer test drive (just spent 15 min) - but wondering if anyone else felt the same?

Even if I reconcile with no 4 * 4, I'll definitely not buy unless I am satisfied with the ergonomics.

[Poitive]

Originally Posted by chinkara

...
1. Heaviness of the steering initially, as reported by many here
2. Strangely I could not find a comfortable driving position. Even with the seat at max height, my knees were part folded. Also (and maybe as a corollary) there was a lack of under thigh support. I felt this was far worse than Storme. I am 6'2" with fairly heavy build, but this was more uncomfortable than even my earlier Wagon R.

Mate, I am of a comparable height and have had quite an ordeal finding a suitable SUV in terms of ergonomics, easy ingress-egress etc. Have shared fairly lengthy test driver reports and more which might help you. Link: https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/suvs-...700-kicks.html

Sitting:
I too have had issues with the Harrier/Safari, but was about the knee hitting the console-dash. It was finally quite solved by spending some 15-20 minutes adjusting the seat (details on page 15 of the above thread).

What might work for you is to keep the seat further back, then play with the height and distance from pedals to find a comfortable position. The seat being pulled further away will make the legs stretch a bit further lowering the knee, and hence providing a bit more support; or at least a better position on the whole. The telescopic steering can then be pulled out for a comfortable steering position. It might make ones on the rear bench a bit unhappier though (the Hector has ample space in this direction and is ergonomically quite good, but has other issues). I hope you don't have the knee-console issue. Some 6' people do and some don't (a video by @udhaw on the above thread regarding this).

Incidentally, for me after a comfortable seat height adjustment, I found the ingress aperture height (seat height to top of door opening) the best in the Tata Twins. For me they are sorely let down by the NVH, but I guess I am a bit more sensitive to sound than most.

[PS: A bit about steering heaviness, HPS and EPS has been discussed in the posts above and those quoted.]

~~~~

Steering Heaviness
A suggestion for anyone test driving a vehicle (and probably more valid for the Tata Twins) : please do check the tyre pressure in the TD vehicles. They are rarely checked and tyre pressure affects various driving characteristics such as 'suspension' feel, dynamics, road holding, safety, braking distance, agility, acceleration/power/torque etc - and yes, they affect steering feel too. An underinflated car's steering will feel heavier and even a tad slower to react.

In my last TD of the Harrier something felt off. Asked the SA about the tyre pressure and was assured that it was okay. I insisted and at the pump it was two had mild variations, one had 40psi and another 20psi. On the pressure being corrected, to me it felt like a totally different vehicle being driven. (On another vehicle there was a huge difference in the on-board TPMS and the trusted pump's meter)

Unless some crazy difference in tyre pressure like above the difference would not be night and day, but could be pretty significant to ones sensitive to steering feel.

Edit: Besides tyre wear, alignment etc, it is also worth checking the tyre pressure in case of a minor pull on one side.

[BlackMambaXX]

About the ergonomics for tall people: The best position I found was the take the seat back, pull the steering towards you. That solves the knee hitting the dashbord issue.

[chinkara]

Originally Posted by Poitive

What might work for you is to keep the seat further back, then play with the height and distance from pedals to find a comfortable position. The seat being pulled further away will make the legs stretch a bit further lowering the knee, and hence providing a bit more support; or at least a better position on the whole. The telescopic steering can then be pulled out for a comfortable steering position. It might make ones on the rear bench a bit unhappier though (the Hector has ample space in this direction and is ergonomically quite good, but has other issues). I hope you don't have the knee-console issue. Some 6' people do and some don't (a video by @udhaw on the above thread regarding this).

.

Originally Posted by BlackMambaXX

About the ergonomics for tall people: The best position I found was the take the seat back, pull the steering towards you. That solves the knee hitting the dashbord issue.

I actually keep the seat way back. That's my preferred position. My knee typically makes a 100-120 degree angle. However, I couldn't find that position in the new Safari. Seat in the highest position + sufficiently far back, my knee was still above my seat level - it was a bit weird, albeit in the short drive.

[tud]

Question to recent owners of Safari or Harrier

What is the status of the second smart key? Have you got it yet? Is the dealer (who made the sale) responsible to get it or owners have to follow up with TATA?

Only a skeleton of the insertable second key would have been provided since February/March 2022. The smart key elements were withheld due to chip shortage.

[Familyguy]

Hi guys - any info regarding the facelift? It's time Tata gave these designs a bit of a makeover. The twins still look smashing, but a little dated.

I've been in the market for a while now to replace my ageing Safari Storme. But I still feel it's kind of a downgrade if I switch to the new Safari. I was waiting for the Scorpio N with bated breath but again something about the design is off for me so can't lock that either, add the crazy waiting periods for XUV 7OO and I'm now utterly confused.

My last hope is a proper facelift of the Safari with better infotainment and a fresh design with AWD.

[speed79]

Originally Posted by Familyguy

Hi guys - any info regarding the facelift? It's time Tata gave these designs a bit of a makeover. The twins still look smashing, but a little dated.

I've been in the market for a while now to replace my ageing Safari Storme. But I still feel it's kind of a downgrade if I switch to the new Safari. I was waiting for the Scorpio N with bated breath but again something about the design is off for me so can't lock that either, add the crazy waiting periods for XUV 7OO and I'm now utterly confused.

My last hope is a proper facelift of the Safari with better infotainment and a fresh design with AWD.

I too am a Tata Safari Storme Vx 4x4 2015 (now ex) owner. It was totaled in an accident in mid April, and I too am unable to find a replacement of Tata Safari (Storme). Though I like Harrier-Safari twins, but none of them seems to be replacement of Storme. The imposing driving position of Storme and the overall view of surrounding from the driver seat of Storme is missing in Harrier-Safari. I had some hopes with ScorpioN, but it does not appeal to the heart. I don't like XUV700 either. Next contender Fortuner is out of budget, and there are no other worthy alternatives. So I am planning to get a small car (Tiago/Punch) for now, which in future will replace my Vista. Hoping for a facelift of Harrier-Safari in next 1-2 years. My only additional requirement in current Harrier-Safari is Adaptive Cruise Control, which i hope will be added in the facelift in next 1-2 years, as there in no better alternative.

[Safari_Beast]

Originally Posted by chinkara

I took a test drive over the weekend.
Wife and son liked the car.

Kids were ok in the rear seat - probably not on long distance drives, but they felt they'd be ok in city drives. I was also ok with luggage space with the last row folded - the incline will not matter IMO.

I had 2 issues:
1. Heaviness of the steering initially, as reported by many here
2. Strangely I could not find a comfortable driving position. Even with the seat at max height, my knees were part folded. Also (and maybe as a corollary) there was a lack of under thigh support. I felt this was far worse than Storme. I am 6'2" with fairly heavy build, but this was more uncomfortable than even my earlier Wagon R.

Of course, it may be that I would find the right position in a longer test drive (just spent 15 min) - but wondering if anyone else felt the same?

Even if I reconcile with no 4 * 4, I'll definitely not buy unless I am satisfied with the ergonomics.

I am also 6'2 plus over weight as well , i found safari has better headroom and space then xuv700. Also its easier to ingress/outgress as well in safari , also as @Poitive mentioned try making the seat lowered plus take it to the last position and you would be set. My knee doesn't touch the dashboard until i move the seat forward. Also regarding the steering as you were owning wagonr then you would feel the steering heavy but only on standstill.

[Familyguy]

Originally Posted by speed79

I too am a Tata Safari Storme Vx 4x4 2015 owner. It was totaled in an accident in mid April, and I too am unable to find a replacement of Tata Safari (Storme). Though I like Harrier-Safari twins, but none of them seems to be replacement of Storme. The imposing driving position of Storme and the overall view of surrounding from the driver seat of Storme is missing in Harrier-Safari. I had some hopes with ScorpioN, but it does not appeal to the heart. I don't like XUV700 either. Next contender Fortuner is out of budget, and there are no other worthy alternatives. So I am planning to get a small car (Tiago/Punch) for now, which in future will replace my Vista. Hoping for a facelift of Harrier-Safari in next 1-2 years. My only additional requirement in current Harrier-Safari is Adaptive Cruise Control, which i hope will be added in the facelift in next 1-2 years.

Wow, must've been one crazy accident to total the Beast, hope everyone was Ok.

I agree, it's just impossible to find a replacement unless you're willing to compromise on certain things or go way beyond your budget. If Tata takes 1-2 years for the facelift they might as well say happy birthday to mahindra and cede all the market share they've gained in this segment!

I guess I will drive the Storme for as long as I can and wait for a worthy successor. 7 years and counting..

[condor]

Originally Posted by speed79

Though I like Harrier-Safari twins, but none of them seems to be replacement of Storme. .

How has your search been going on ? Can be discussed in the related thread about buying a used Safari.

Honestly, for all that the Storme gave us, we are going to find it difficult to find a replacement. (My 2013 Storme has now done 1.14L)

[chinkara]

Originally Posted by Familyguy

I guess I will drive the Storme for as long as I can and wait for a worthy successor. 7 years and counting..

Unfortunately I don't have the luxury due to NCR 10 year rule.
I would have happily used it for another 5 years. Just completed a trip to the Himalayas in non-tarmac roads. Can't see Safari handling those terrains that Storme did.