[Technic90]

Originally Posted by venkyhere

why is a 3rd party reviewer being discussed here ?

Someone decided to show their hate for Fortuner, I decided to point out the lies and counter with some facts.

Originally Posted by ulhas.ahirrao

Having taken a test drive of Fortuner multiple times recently, I agree with his views.

It is a grossly overpriced car where Toyota is milking the customer big time, it's their Cash Cow!

First things first, I respect your opinion of not liking Fortuner and that you feel it's overpriced. What I don't agree with is milking part. You see no one is being forced to buy Fortuner nor there is a monopoly which can be taken advantage by Toyota. The competitors simply have failed to beat Fortuner and that's why they are forced to keep prices lower to achieve 'some' sales. Yet Fortuner manages to sell more than Endeavour, Gloster, Alturas combined! I am pretty sure if Fortuner is as bad as Gagan pointed out, this would not be possible.

You can agree with his views even though I have pointed out with evidence how he lied openly about mileage and braking test to defame the car. For other lies that he spoke, I can not give evidence because it falls under the 'personal opinion' category. The only truth he spoke was about the ride quality, rest he either lied or hid the facts to make sure he doesn't utter any good things about the car. As an example, he called ventilated seats noisy then criticised the buttons for the ventilation but no word on the ventilation itself! I haven't yet heard the seat ventilation in my car make any noise (maybe Gagan actually experienced it) and everyone in my family loved the quality of ventilation (it wasn't too high or too low, just about enough to be comfortable). I do not blame him actually nor I expect him to stop reviewing cars. He also needs to earn money so it is obvious he has to do what his 'employers' ask him to do but I personally won't call him neutral reviewer in any scenario. The only neutral ones I found are Team-BHP official reviews. In fact I also suggested Toyota should start paying for such paid reviews for some good marketing. Every car in the market has something positive to talk about no matter how much you hate it personally, whether it's Nano or GLE.

Just curious, if an AWD 2.0 litre 5 seater monocoque vehicle can be sold at 28.29 (ex-showroom), then what do you think is the correct price for 4x4/RWD 2.8 litre 7 seater ladder on frame vehicle?

[cool_dube]

Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Peace, guys!

Having being in this dilemma for many months, here are my 2 cents: a few lac of INR here or there does not matter to a buyer in this segment! So, price will be down under on the list of deciding factors here. To be frank, I would have still picked the Endeavour had Fortuner been a few lac cheaper than it currently costs. That is because it aligned perfectly with my priorities. There is no absolute winner here since each has its own merits and demerits. Pick the one that has stuff on offer which matters the most to you!!

[Technic90]

Originally Posted by cool_dube

Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Peace, guys!

Having being in this dilemma for many months, here are my 2 cents: a few lac of INR here or there does not matter to a buyer in this segment! So, price will be down under on the list of deciding factors here. To be frank, I would have still picked the Endeavour had Fortuner been a few lac cheaper than it currently costs. That is because it aligned perfectly with my priorities. There is no absolute winner here since each has its own merits and demerits. Pick the one that has stuff on offer which matters the most to you!!

We are not actually discussing which is better nor is anyone complaining about the negative reviews in his video. We are pointing out the lies and misinformation that the reviewer is trying to spread. That's all. If he had pointed out the pros and cons of Fortuner and then said 'I prefer Endeavour over this', then there is nothing to argue about. This Gagan went on a rant from the first line itself on how it doesn't make ANY sense to buy the car and followed up with multiple lies and nonsensical opinion. In fact, most reviewers have preferred Endeavour but no one's complaining about it. At least have the decency to speak out honest facts and opinions. It's about the integrity of such reviews and I feel it is important to point out such things so that prospective buyers can be made aware of the facts. That doesn't mean I am always right, if there is any misinformation I have put then please correct me. But people simply say I agree with his views even after I pointed out the lies, at least prove me wrong so that others can know! Blind faith is something very common that I see everywhere.

[PrideRed]

Well the funny part is lot of folks have not even sat in the facelifted Fortuner, forget a test drive. Toyota has tried improving many aspects compared to pre-facelift which is missed in a lot of reviews. Lot of folks still have the pre-facelift Fortuner in mind when the compare with competition. Toyota has improved Engine, Gearbox, VFC steering Suspension, Features, Audio, 4x4 gear, interior/exterior color options etc. Yes even with improvements there are areas which it falls short and in others, it just steamrolls the competition, which most of the reviews don't cover for reason best known them. Fortunately despite all the efforts to pull down, customer are actually unfazed and know they get for what they are paying.

[Slushmaster]

Originally Posted by PrideRed

Well the funny part is lot of folks have not even sat in the facelifted Fortuner, forget a test drive.

You are absolutely right here, but as we are on this virtual web based world, this is fine. People will still buy whatever they want as that fulfills their demand and aspiration.

As an owner of the new fortuner from past 3.5 months, I can safely say that few of the observations are not correct about Fortuner. Why we take the test ride of a car, to feel how is the engine, pickup, NVH levels and ride quality etc. And some of us selected Fortuner without even driving it, just a test drive of endeavour was enough. Nothing against Endeavour, its a good vehicle and not at all underpowered, but the engine does not do justice.
Ford used to come with 3.2L engine and they reduced the engine capacity by ~ 1200CC, they reduced features and even increased the cost of it and still some find it value for money. Do we need to go and bash these people for their choices, I don't think so as its their decision and money.

I bought Fortuner because of the way it drives and how well it is put together. The mileage of Fortunner is far more than what I expected, getting 13.5-14.5 KMPL in mixed conditions.Service was hassle free(I am an old Tata customer) and as other say they are reliable and hold their value well, for me it checked all the boxes. And those who are just singing the song of ride quality, reducing tire pressure or just filling the reccomedned air pressure improve things and it is not at all that bad that you just reject it as a bad vehicle.

Fortuner is going to sell and will always be the number one till the time we have a worthy opponent(3.2 Endeavour was) with a right product strategy for India backed by right pricing.

Thanks,
Slushmaster

[cnu]

Originally Posted by Technic90

These are what I observed from his review

Spot on with the observations. I feel terrible when the machines are not handled gently. See at 13:12 and 20:20, for example. Feel sorry for the owner.

[PrideRed]

An interesting comparison, would have been nice to see Gloster instead of Tiguan though. I noticed the AC is wonderful immediately after delivery and also mentioned in my review. The AC in Fortuner is chiller, even at temperatures set at 24-25, feels cold inside. Thanks to Ventilated seats and UV cut glass, I find the AC much better than my other two cars in garage.

https://www.cardekho.com/india-car-n...ared-27099.htm

Few point to note, even though Fortuner was White, it did have black roof and all other cars had Sunroof. Alturas despite black color, did perform well.

[cool_dube]

Originally Posted by PrideRed

Few point to note, even though Fortuner was White, it did have black roof and all other cars had Sunroof. Alturas despite black color, did perform well.

I suppose the lack of sunroof is a key contributor to this behaviour, given that all the other cars have a large glass area on the roof.

[PrideRed]

Originally Posted by cool_dube

I suppose the lack of sunroof is a key contributor to this behaviour, given that all the other cars have a large glass area on the roof.

Lack of sunroof should be a contributor, however I feel the AC itself is quite good and same is seen in some tests. Also Legender comes with black roof and interiors are black and red, so should actually contribute a bit to heating up the cabin. The Endeavour third row blower pumps out more air, same can be related to third row cooling test where Endeavour was better.

[CEF_Beasts]

Originally Posted by PrideRed

An interesting comparison, would have been nice to see Gloster instead of Tiguan though. Few point to note, even though Fortuner was White, it did have black roof and all other cars had Sunroof. Alturas despite black color, did perform well.

Good to see such detailed comparisons, very few media houses do these now .

Matt finished wrap vs a black painted roof in the Fortuner could be a reason as well. I guess a black painted roof will absorb more heat than a Matt black wrap.

Infotainment section it will be a close fought battle between the Tiguan Allspace and Ford’s amazing Sync 3. I prefer the Sync 3 more, Fortuner’s in comparison is old-school.

Waiting eagerly for the headlights comparison! Both Fortuner and Endeavour have excellent headlights. Alturas in comparison to has a halogen high beam.

[mohitchalla]

Originally Posted by PrideRed

After owning for both cars together for 2+ months I can say this isn't true.
====
Dashboard top section which is better in Endeavour
Attachment 2133382

Thanks for sharing your experience with the pictures. Since you own both the cars, which one would you pick if you could only have one of those?

[PrideRed]

Originally Posted by mohitchalla

Thanks for sharing your experience with the pictures. Since you own both the cars, which one would you pick if you could only have one of those?

Its a tough call. Had it been Endeavour with previous set of Engines and pre-facelift Fortuner, would have gone with Endeavour. It had features, engine options, power where as Fortuner lacked interms of features and power though good did not match 3.2.
Come 2021 tables have turned, Endeavour lost its major wow factor with 2.0L engine and lost some features too and Fortuner got Engine boost and new features. The suspension in Endeavour has gotten a tad too soft as well(This I noticed after If you read my comments on Crysta, I prefer slightly stiffer suspension as my drive is majority on highways hence would like ride of Crysta ZX over GX/VX.
So back to Endeavour and Fortuner, with confusion over Ford's future, average engine, Ford deleting few features and a offering a slightly more softer suspension, I will pick the Fortuner(Not the Legender though)

[CEF_Beasts]

Hadn’t seen the Legender till today, saw it finally on the road, it just doesn’t have the presence of the regular Fortuner!

Many wouldn’t move out of the way for a Legender, just doesn’t have that dominating look, whereas the regular Fortuner with that bigger grill up front will surely make you notice it in one’s IRVM.

[aastiksaluja]

I read the thread from where much heat sprung up after discussing Gagans's review.

I believe many users, including myself, rely on such Vloggers to get a first look, initial impression and sometimes a quick review before the REAL detailed analysis rolls out.

I utilise their services purely to get car details and some dynamic impressions of the car to get an initial drive/ride impression- No opinion formation or swaying of the verdict before doing my diligent research. It's pretty efficient, and honestly, the only way left during these COVID times. I don't think casually visiting showrooms and sitting in TD cars is an intelligent decision in the current situation.

Coming to Fortuner, I remembered my first drive in my family friend's Gen2 Fortuner back in 2013. It's a seven-hour long road trip with me driving half of the 230km odd hilly curves which test the vehicle and driver. I was surprised with the bumpy ride and stiffness, if I have to be completely honest. The drive itself turned out to be a headache from the enthusiasm I had initially, and I didn't enjoy much apart from good visibility and power delivery. I was talking about cars a lot while our drive, and as I delve deep into technicalities passionately, with a loss of filter, I even told the very owner of the vehicle that ride is not that great :P His face told me he wasn't happy hearing that.
I still think it's somewhat because of the recent spoil I got from our recently bought Terrano, which still glides like a fairy on twists and a witch on broken tarmac.

I have travelled a couple of other times in Fortuner in group trips, and the recent one I can recall is with group friends, where occupants preferred Alturas on a highway drive. One of the Fortuner owners also said that this drives very comfortably and doesn't realise the speed if you don't look at the speedo or hear the beep. I don't know if he was being nice or was impressed.

IMHO Fortuner is one of those case studies of India as a market where Mob Mentality defies rationality. Nowhere I mean that Fortuner isn't a class-leading product and doesn't deserve to be the segment leader amongst the choices, but it does not justify the sky-high pricing by any means of logic. Not to forget the ridiculous price-variant combo where one can't get a 4*4 Legender and all that money for cosmetic changes.
If I admit that the vehicle, with corrected pricing, is still the top contender of the lot, it's because we no more have Endy 3.2. Ford is going crazy with their current hesitations of committing to an Indian relationship. As an Alturas owner, even though it suited my requirement and budget at that time better than all other options, all I expected was a dialled down Mob mentality, and the buyers appreciated the product for what it is. It probably raked in more numbers than it did. I am not expecting it to topple the sales chart, honestly.
With the above point, I recall another one of the Mob Mentality traits I saw very often in all the threads during Alturas launch. Many unsatisfied people dissed about it being overpriced because they were expecting a convenient upgrade over XUV500. One Does Not decide what price one needs to pay without comprehending what they're getting as a product. As a personal opinion and decision, I ditched XUV500 twice as an option before, never considered Scorpio a competent car for its price, and would never have dreamt of buying an Indigenous XUV700 at that price knowing Mahindra's niggles and reliability issues in Alpha products. Still, it's expected out of the TBHP community to know and understand that a CKD Ssangyong Rexton with that build quality, features, solid and reliable drivetrain can't be that cheap.

The point is, for all those who justify the exorbitant pricing of Fortuner as a premium for unmatched reliability and high resale value, I could see a countable number of Fortuner owners in all the official review thread who are facing horrible issues. Product defects, ASS, and awful experiences are just like other cars, even if the number is lower than others. The fan following is so blind that people are pleased to spend 30K on a 45L vehicle to upgrade the infotainment because the OEM is pure crass, or buying overpriced door projections or scuff plates which are standard! They should realise that it's NOT JUST the product quality but equally the Mob Mentality where second-hand owners are willing to pay that premium without thinking and enquiring much.

I felt no one puts out the facts as they are because, in the end, RIP Logic & you shut your mouth since it sells like hotcakes! I guess no.
It might seem like a rant, but I just stated the facts as they are. And it's already a lost cause, so not here to win any arguments.

[Technic90]

Originally Posted by aastiksaluja

I read the thread from where much heat sprung up after discussing Gagans's review.

I think you missed the point of the 'heat' that started. It was not because someone didn't like Fortuner. Every Endeavour/Alturas buyer didn't buy Fortuner because they didn't like it and no one here is accusing them of anything. The point of the 'heat' was the blatant lies in Gagan's review and I have reiterated that in many posts by now. I also listed the lies as well. Feel free to counter them if I am wrong. Calling Alturas better than Fortuner is not a crime but for example, if you say Fortuner feels like Maruti 800 in front of Alturas then you can expect people to counter that because it makes no sense. Other reviewers have also not given 'very positive' reviews about Fortuner but atleast they presented facts on what's good and what's not and no one is ranting about them here. In fact I haven't seen anyone praising Fortuner's ride quality in this forum but it's nowhere as bad as pre-2016 model.

Originally Posted by aastiksaluja

IMHO Fortuner is one of those case studies of India as a market where Mob Mentality defies rationality

For most of the consumers, buying a flop product defies rationality. That's why Maruti has 50% market share and Fortuner sometimes sells more than all of its competitors combined. I have bought an unsuccessful product before, though I loved the drive but not going to make that mistake again. I don't find anything wrong with 'mob mentality', it just means you are buying a product tried and tested with time across generations. If you think people blindly buy anything, then why do you think Yaris and Etios twins flopped? Why s-cross hasn't set the sales chart on fire? Ask any taxi company why they keep buying Toyotas and you will know the rationality behind it. My company's taxi provider laughed when I asked why upgrade old Innova with new Crysta and not cheaper options like Marazzo or Hexa. He called it a bad business idea.

Originally Posted by aastiksaluja

I could see a countable number of Fortuner owners in all the official review thread who are facing horrible issues

Please do list out the horrible issues, product defects and other awful experience if you have time, otherwise people will consider it a 'hit and run' statement. I like keeping track of these problems as they may help me in future if I have to experience any of them. I had done extensive search on this before my purchase on various brands and I found Toyota and Maruti to have the least headaches. I have saved many screenshots of reported problems of most brands. The serious Fortuner ones I found are 1 pre-2016 Turbo failure, pre-2016 poor brakes (fixed), 1 dashboard alignment. Can't recall any other serious issue (there might be, I just don't remember or missed it). For Innova Crysta, tyre burst (fixed now), airbag module (seems to be fixed). Recent big ones are Crysta gearbox oil leak (probably due to accident according to owner). If I have to list out for other brands then I have to write a new book with content from this forum alone. No matter how bad you think Toyota reliability is, it continues to be the gold standard in automobile manufacturing according to various surveys across the world and it would take massive downfall in quality for them to be as bad as some brands. No matter how many people claim Maruti and Toyota reliability to be fiction, the crowd knows better. And reliability doesn't mean ZERO problems - It's the frequency, type of problems and the ability of manufacturer to resolve it quickly. A quick look under 'Technical Stuff' thread gives an idea about the brands with least issues. If you call Toyota issues as horrible, then wonder what will you call TATA and Mahindra issues?

Originally Posted by aastiksaluja

The point is, for all those who justify the exorbitant pricing of Fortuner as a premium for unmatched reliability and high resale value

No one likes paying more money and people justify their purchase decisions by comparing them to options rather than justifying the price tag. Being a previous Ford owner, I am not going to buy Endeavour no matter how superior it is over Fortuner in ride quality. There are reported transmission problems, Ford engineers themselves asking owner to sell the car after 1 lakh km because they had to change engine of few other Endeavours. But if you remove engine specs, reliability and peace of mind out of the equation, then Endeavour beats Fortuner anyday but those are my priorities. MG needs to prove themselves before I can even think of it (reports as of today don't look that good) and market has already judged Alturas to even bother about it. I am not going to spend a penny on a soon to be discontinued model. That leaves me with just Fortuner. So as long as I can afford it, why not? Doesn't mean I agree with the price.

Mahindra is selling Alturas at a lower price simply because hardly anyone is interested to buy them. Toyota manages to sell more Vellfire than Alturas. I know you call like that irrational and blind fan following, it is what it is and I believe there is always a good reason. If Alturas sales were as good Fortuner, you think Mahindra wouldn't have increased prices? No one is into charity, desperation decides prices. Personally as of today, there is no way I am going to spend 20+ on any TATA/Mahindra/Ford vehicle no matter how VFM they look like.

Originally Posted by aastiksaluja

The fan following is so blind that people are pleased to spend 30K on a 45L vehicle to upgrade the infotainment because the OEM is pure crass, or buying overpriced door projections or scuff plates which are standard!

I didn't understand. You want people to reject a 45 lakh car because it comes with a bad infotainment system? You can buy infotainment whenever you want, you can't buy peace of mind.

Originally Posted by aastiksaluja

I felt no one puts out the facts as they are because, in the end, RIP Logic & you shut your mouth since it sells like hotcakes! I guess no.

Atleast point the facts that were twisted instead of just saying we didn't point out 'facts as they are'. Anyhow, people are putting facts. People said Gagan lied about Fortuner mileage but you ignored it. Most of the surveys, ownership experiences claim Toyota to be highly reliable vehicles but you don't agree to it. Crowd has rejected Alturas but you are calling them irrational. Toyota has higher resale because they are known to last much longer but you call people blind. Since you claimed Indians have this 'mob mentality', I had a second hand 2015 Fortuner in South-East Asia, I sold it at the same price that I bought. So now are they blind and irrational too? The fact is there is always a reason why a product is successful or why it flops. You can disagree with it like you are now but that won't change the facts nor prove that people are stupid.

Lastly, asking people to share truth is not asking them to shut mouth. Show me one sentence in this thread where someone was asked not to speak? People don't have to praise Fortuner because I bought one or because it is leading the sales chart but don't tell me imaginary fuel economy numbers or that being 5'8 you found driver seat small. Also, this is my first experience with Toyota India and I am hoping it lives up to the expectations.