[aastiksaluja]

Originally Posted by Technic90

Mate, this is what I didn't want and probably one of the reasons I enjoyed being a silent spectator hogging all the content and keeping myself busy.
I already said in the last sentence- not here to win any arguments, change any opinions or topple the automotive ranking. I wrote for a lost cause. It Would Have. It Did Not!
If you are curious about the rational answers/explanation, I kindly request you to re-read my post. It's pretty much self-explanatory. To help out, here are few things-

My comment on Vlogger reviews means we shouldn't take them seriously or let anyone affect our stance on the product. I believe they facilitate us with an early and quick information flow like a news bulletin. They aren't editorial posts.

You, Sir! pretty much proved my point of mob mentality- People not buying Yaris and Etios despite being the RELIABLE TOYOTA- a primary ( and rather only) strong forte of Fortuner over the competition. S-cross is the best quality product in Suzuki stable after the 2000 era of Zens, Old Baleno, Esteems, and 1st Gen. Swift. And yet, it failed.

It seems you're ired with the comment. The customers who paid equally high premium like those who bought that premium 'Peace of Mind', but didn't get it- It's horrible for them.
In my experience, while I was making the decision, I know my luck factor has not been that great to date, and there are no planetary movements that are going to alter this anytime soon, I imagined myself in the shoes of those who are facing such experiences. They would've instead paid a lot less and got the same bad experience, or probably better than the one they're having. They probably would've ended up with a better feature loaded or a better drivable Car. Perspective is subjective, mate.
You proclaim to have done thorough research on the issue. I read the official review thread for 15 minutes and saw more issue than you pointed out.
Maybe have a peaceful read of all the thread and probably list them out for that book's shortest section. There won't be many, I'm sure, with such a reliable product.
Again, as I said before, Fortuner is still deservingly the segment leader for being the jack of all trades. But IMHO, it should sell more diminutive than it does and probably a good 4-5L cheaper.

Imagine a scenario where the 'Mob mentality' I defined had not ignored the exorbitant price hikes, feature skimming and late launches by Toyota. They have instead opted for other alternatives boosting competitions' sales and bringing balance to the segment. It would have made the Toyota management think on their toes, trying harder to grab the market share, and brought a healthier competition around with more brilliant options to choose from for the buyers. It would have also ended up with current owners like you and many more with a better loaded and better-priced product—Win-Win for all.

Another analogy I would request you and others to take on a light note- I believe every Indian is facing the situation of crowning someone King over them with unprecedented powers, hoping it would help the cause in the best manner, and now they define and narrate the scene in what feels best for them, not the one that made the King in the first place.
There should always be a balance for everyone's benefit.

Hope the above scenario gives you an insight on the other perception that can coexist, peacefully. All the other and many things you cross-questioned would be clear if you got the zest by now. Going back and forth on all the nitty-gritty specs and data and justifying the rights and wrong won't help anyone. Let us be happy with our Blacks & Whites amidst these shades of grey.

I said it before- this sounds like a rant, but that's just my quirky writing touch. Read with a light heart.

And brand loyalty, or rather product loyalty, is good. But it makes one bigger and wise to accept the reality as it is. Being an Alturas owner, I won't mind saying that Endy drives and rides better, or Fortuner is more reliable overall and that Kodiaq is Love with 2.0 TSI! Heck, every time I hit a bump that seeps in, I miss my Terrano! It is what it is. If I had an average annual run of 25-30K, I would've bought Fortuner, hands down. No two doubts about it.

But like I don't tussle online for everyone's acceptance and approval on how a majority of feature-wise rundown comparison reviews have rated Alturas better than Fortuner, I would not be going GAGA and justifying my prized Fortuner's premium because it's Da Best
For me, my Car is the best. It is probably better than a G wagon/RR next to it because I hold the key to My Car. I might change opinions if they're willing to exchange keys
Peace out

[Technic90]

Originally Posted by aastiksaluja

You, Sir! pretty much proved my point of mob mentality- People not buying Yaris and Etios despite being the RELIABLE TOYOTA

Maybe because Honda City, Suzuki Ciaz and every Etios competitor in that segment are also known to be reliable? So 'mob' didn't find any particular reason to choose these 2 over others.

Originally Posted by aastiksaluja

You proclaim to have done thorough research on the issue. I read the official review thread for 15 minutes and saw more issue than you pointed out.

Yes I didn't find them. So it would help if you can list couple of them.

Originally Posted by aastiksaluja

Imagine a scenario where the 'Mob mentality' I defined had not ignored the exorbitant price hikes, feature skimming and late launches by Toyota

Look at this the other way, imagine a scenario where Mahindra and Ford had gained a reputation for reliability and fuss-free ownership. Imagine one where Ford didn't downgrade the engine and remove features one by one. Imagine one where Ford's future in India was never in doubt? Then yes mob would have ignored Fortuner completely just like they ignored Yaris and Etios. As I said before there is always a good reason why consumers prefer a particular product especially for over a decade, sometimes it can also be because they have no better option. Consumer behaviour is a tricky subject on which companies spend millions and still don't get it right all the time. Companies who question the behaviour go out of business very soon and those who accept and embrace it succeed at some point.

Originally Posted by aastiksaluja

But IMHO, it should sell more diminutive than it does and probably a good 4-5L cheaper.

I wish that was true, could have saved a lot of money.

Originally Posted by aastiksaluja

Hope the above scenario gives you an insight on the other perception that can coexist, peacefully.

Why are you telling this to me? I am not the one who called people irrational, blind and illogical because they rejected a product I liked or chose a product I wasn't impressed with. I didn't even question why people buy Alturas and Endeavour, I simply explained why I wouldn't buy them.

Originally Posted by aastiksaluja

And brand loyalty, or rather product loyalty, is good.

The moment my cars start giving trouble which is not getting rectified, I am going to sell them. I will downgrade and buy a Maruti if I have to just for the sake of peace of mind. I have even suggested one member in this forum not to buy Fortuner if he can't come to terms with the ride quality. Toyota didn't give the cars for free, so I don't have any particular reason to be loyal.

[aastiksaluja]

Like I said before- Let us be happy with our Blacks and Whites.

The post I wrote is a continuation of the thread for everyone, not just you. You just happen to be one amongst many owners, & it just so happens that you feel you belong to the superset of the spectrum that I highlighted. I never pointed you out.
Giving comebacks to the only points which one doesn't like isn't going to change either's opinion.
Never questioned your buying choice or opinion or any action. I gave a neutral response to the Vlogger thing which actually supports your post, that we should care less about what they say, and yes they are biased like news sometimes.

I shared my personal experience of the Fortuner's ride and handling, which you agree to as well.

I put down my observation on the majority of people buying cars in this segment which can be subjectively identified as a herd mentality. I'm happy that you have your peace of mind, but that isn't the ONLY agenda of Toyota.

Another point- this premium of Toyota is not India centric, but the mass mentality IS. I drove Hilux Ute & RAV4 in Queensland '19 for good two months and had quite a few discussions with fellow mates and our company people which owned a fleet of 50 odd Toyota. The premium is for robust build quality and abuse friendly nature which companies prefer for a fuss-free lease, but most people there used a non-Toyota as a personal car. I was happy to see a few Ssangyongs as well! They felt the premium charged is not worth it unless they use it extensively on a farm or commercially.
The majority of Indian users are well off falling in a niche spectrum and buying it to make a statement. Get the difference!
Again, Majority- not you, please. Like I already said, if I had a run of 25-30K annually, I would choose it hands down. That would've been a Utilitarian choice, not the desired choice.

Also, brand loyalty or product loyalty part. You might not be the one, but if you know your owner group very well, there are a LOT of Fortuner owners who upgrade to the new model as soon as they are launched. Many pay in advance to get the first lot. That isn't a logical upgrade for everyone. Most of the time it's a pure Showoff and making a statement, which they feel is cool. Add to that, the herd's mentality providing approval to such acts looking Cool.
You might not be the one falling in this spectrum but can't ignore their existence and the effect they have over the market in totality.

[raghukodali]

Can any of the owners of the 2021 4x4 variant please confirm that Toyota has re-introduced the lockable rear differential? I have seen this in the launch video but I am not sure if this is re introduced or not.

[CEF_Beasts]

Originally Posted by raghukodali

Can any of the owners of the 2021 4x4 variant please confirm that Toyota has re-introduced the lockable rear differential? I have seen this in the launch video but I am not sure if this is re introduced or not.

Not an owner of the 2021 facelift yet but yes the 4X4 now gets a rear locking differential.

[PrideRed]

Originally Posted by aastiksaluja

Another point- this premium of Toyota is not India centric, but the mass mentality IS. I drove Hilux Ute & RAV4 in Queensland '19 for good two months and had quite a few discussions with fellow mates and our company people which owned a fleet of 50 odd Toyota. The premium is for robust build quality and abuse friendly nature which companies prefer for a fuss-free lease, but most people there used a non-Toyota as a personal car. I was happy to see a few Ssangyongs as well! They felt the premium charged is not worth it unless they use it extensively on a farm or commercially.
The majority of Indian users are well off falling in a niche spectrum and buying it to make a statement. Get the difference!
Again, Majority- not you, please. Like I already said, if I had a run of 25-30K annually, I would choose it hands down. That would've been a Utilitarian choice, not the desired choice.

Also, brand loyalty or product loyalty part. You might not be the one, but if you know your owner group very well, there are a LOT of Fortuner owners who upgrade to the new model as soon as they are launched. Many pay in advance to get the first lot. That isn't a logical upgrade for everyone. Most of the time it's a pure Showoff and making a statement, which they feel is cool. Add to that, the herd's mentality providing approval to such acts looking Cool.
You might not be the one falling in this spectrum but can't ignore their existence and the effect they have over the market in totality.

There can be reason for someone to call this as herd mentality but potential buyers/owners have their reasons why they prefer Fortuner over rest. In this age of social media, access to internet and test drives, I am surprised people equate success to herd mentality. There will be exceptions to this and there will be folks who buy because his friend/relative got one, but this holds true for even Alturas or other cars too? I mean why would anyone buy a second iteration of a car when you know first one had a really bad reputation/flop? Yes second one can be good but in India its well known, a flop car will always remain flop. Other than herd mentality I can't see a reason why a informed buyer would like to lose his hard earned money. Every owner who plonks 40-50L will think 10 times, evaluate his needs and set expectations before finalizing a model. Unless you know every buyer in person or a large percentage or statistical data, generalizing and equating sales to herd mentality doesnot make sense to me.

When I went to book Fortuner, I came back after test driving a BMW, went to showroom in my Endeavour and knew what to expect from Toyota Fortuner the moment I test drove one(pre-facelift). There can be 20 examples to showcase herd mentality but remember Fortuner sells almost 1K a month and you will find remaining 950 folks with their reasoning/needs as to why they chose Fortuner over rest. A lot of Toyota easily munch 40-50K a year and reason why its hard to find a used Toyota with low mileage. When folks have this kind of requirement, I don't see them putting money on an Alturas.

Pricing is not decided by me or any individual but is determined by manufacturer based on market, demand/supply, brand value, reputation built over time. A Toyota is expensive or not for what it offers is to be decided by market, afterall no one is holding a gun on head and forcing to spend your hard earned money on Fortuner. Never found a Samsung Galaxy or Iphone overpriced for what they offer? Ask an owner and you will know if its herd mentality or not. Yes, Fortuner may not have the fanciest features or the plush cabin as Alturas/Gloster but what about Engine, off road capability, highway ride, interior space etc.? These don't count when one compare 50L cars? What about Ownership experience, after sales there is no value to these? Even folks who bought Alturas blatantly agree after sales is nowhere close to Toyota. Why are these being missed when cars are compared?

Again as I mentioned earlier, when something is successful, there will be rants from competition, they will ire about success, foul mouth buyers, degrade the product and even some reviewers will suggest a model which about to stop production(Herd Mentality? ). Before ranting, please test drive the cars, see positive and negatives and pick one that suits you the best, which I am sure you did and so did the 1K odd folks who bought Fortuner. Yes there will be buyers who book without test drive, but they would have tasted a Fortuner elsewhere and know what to expect from.


Off topic, Did I hear ride quality of Alturas is much better or rather poor ride in Fortuner? Below is Alturas review in TBHP.

"Lift off the brake and the Alturas moves forward effortlessly. Throttle response is acceptable and the engine is quite happy to be driven at city speeds. While there is very little turbo lag, the engine comes into its stride around the 1,800 rpm mark. Keeping up with city traffic is very easy. Driven hard, the engine revs to just 4,000 rpm (500 rpm short of the redline). While there is adequate performance available, do not expect this heavy SUV to set the road ablaze. While there is enough power to keep most drivers happy, the G4 is more of a cruiser than an outright performer. 100 km/h is seen at 1,600 rpm and 120 km/h at 1,900 rpm.

The 7-speed automatic gearbox is smooth. Gearshifts are barely noticed by anyone other than the driver. It's fine when you build up speed gradually. However, it is not a quick gearbox by any stretch of imagination. When driven hard, its shortcomings are highlighted. Kickdown takes well over a second and a half. Forget DSGs, even some AMTs feel faster. So, while overtaking on undivided highways, you better plan your move well in advance. There is a manual mode available, but even with that, it is not a quick shifter. Besides, the M mode is operated by an irritating little switch on the right side of the gear knob.

Just driven at 20 - 30 km/h and the first impression is that the ride quality is very body-on-frame Fortunerish. You can feel everything there is on the road. You always know the kind of road you are driving on. It is not plush at all. At low speeds, there's a fair bit of cabin movement also - even at 35 km/h - on a relatively smooth Cadell Road. At high speeds, the ride quality is compliant, but that's it. It certainly can’t be called plush. You feel all the undulations on the road. Where it shines, is in the rough. The vehicle simply flies over the rough stuff. An unladen ground clearance of 244 mm ensures that the car does not scrape its undercarriage anywhere".

Originally Posted by raghukodali

Can any of the owners of the 2021 4x4 variant please confirm that Toyota has re-introduced the lockable rear differential? I have seen this in the launch video but I am not sure if this is re introduced or not.

Its very much there in facelift 4x4 models. A dedicated button has been provided for this feature.

[aastiksaluja]

I had a quick read of the post the first time. Now that I was drawn towards it, I reread your post and rewatched Gagan's video and I think it's a fair review, putting it out as it is.
It wouldn't matter much to people who have a moderate viewpoint and are subjective to opinions, but clearly, the points mentioned are strongly opinionated and more like a rant for not agreeing to the things one doesn't like. I guess "Alturas is Better' unsettled some strong nerves there

Originally Posted by Technic90

https://www.Youtube.com/watch?v=zf0D3CJBt4U


12. Overpriced because of lack of features but people buy for the name. I mean who doesn't look throwing their money away on inferior products.

13. Probably mentioned 'Alturas is better' more number of times than the number of Alturas Mahindra sold this year.

14. He recommends buying Endeavour when Ford comes up with better engine option. He should have said that when Endy had it's 3.2, probably Ford would have beaten Toyota finally. He seems to prefer buying Alturas as well even if it goes out of production.

A fellow mate already laid it out over here. I rewatched just to see if there were hints of motivated tarnishing, but sorry to say it's on point.

Originally Posted by Kln

Gagan is one of the more neutral reviewers on Youtube. The fact that Toyota didn't provide him with a media car is actually a plus point in my eyes. He's less likely to be biased.

Yes, the app didn't work. You can't deny it. It's a negative point and Gagan went very easy on it. I would've expected him to trash it more actually.

I don't see him comparing it with Creta, and logically so because it isn't even the same segment. He's constantly comparing with other segment cars like Alturas, Endeavour, Gloster. It's a very practical review. His inputs help you make a choice from the available options. Taste is subjective - he may like the seating position of one car and not like it in another.

The ride quality of Fortuner is awful, and it is universally mentioned across all reviews. I don't see how this should be any different.

Anyway.
Most of your gripes sound like Gagan is not the channel for you, and that's fine. However calling him all the things you've called him is unfair, in my humble opinion.

TBHP - "All reviewers are just the same cut copy paste guys with no relevant material"

I agree with this flow, not just in this case, but felt it on occassions in threads as well when someone stands out with a different opinion.

Also TBHP - "How dare a reviewer have a different opinion than mine! I am going to close my ears and listen to only my echo chamber!"

And just like him, adapting wisely, signing out of this. Coz in the end, as Gagan said, "Lenge to Phortuner hi Aap" (Joke)

Originally Posted by Kln

Quite the contrary! It's my dream ride. Anyway, you clearly have very strong opinions on him, so I'm signing out of this conversation.

[CEF_Beasts]

Originally Posted by aastiksaluja

Coming to Fortuner, I remembered my first drive in my family friend's Gen2 Fortuner back in 2013. It's a seven-hour long road trip with me driving half of the 230km odd hilly curves which test the vehicle and driver. I was surprised with the bumpy ride and stiffness, if I have to be completely honest. The drive itself turned out to be a headache from the enthusiasm I had initially, and I didn't enjoy much apart from good visibility and power delivery. I was talking about cars a lot while our drive, and as I delve deep into technicalities passionately, with a loss of filter, I even told the very owner of the vehicle that ride is not that great :P His face told me he wasn't happy hearing that.
I still think it's somewhat because of the recent spoil I got from our recently bought Terrano, which still glides like a fairy on twists and a witch on broken tarmac.

I have travelled a couple of other times in Fortuner in group trips, and the recent one I can recall is with group friends, where occupants preferred Alturas on a highway drive. One of the Fortuner owners also said that this drives very comfortably and doesn't realise the speed if you don't look at the speedo or hear the beep. I don't know if he was being nice or was impressed.

IMHO Fortuner is one of those case studies of India as a market where Mob Mentality defies rationality. Nowhere I mean that Fortuner isn't a class-leading product and doesn't deserve to be the segment leader amongst the choices, but it does not justify the sky-high pricing by any means of logic. Not to forget the ridiculous price-variant combo where one can't get a 4*4 Legender and all that money for cosmetic changes.

If we go back to 2013, the options available were Pajero Sport, Endeavour, Fortuner and Rexton. Let me list out some points for each.

Pajero Sport: Pathetic dealer and service network, shoulder room for middle row passengers was lacking. Otherwise it was a fantastic product with a very capable engine.

Endeavour: Worst ride quality amongst all of them, third row seats were an absolute joke. Was although well built and had a punchy motor (automatic 4X4).

Rexton: Hit-or-miss service experience, pathetic highway mannerisms! It had the most features, low speed ride was really good and price was competitive.

Fortuner: Ride quality in the middle row is pathetic, interiors were very similar to the innova. Otherwise it had a good dealer backing and a powerful engine.

As you can see the Fortuner was the best compromise back then, it sold because others were just not upto the mark.

Now comparing a 2013 car with a 2019/2020 car is not fair I would say.

Then second reason Toyota has cemented its position is because of the variant distribution. NCR folks can buy a petrol Fortuner (I have seen a few in Delhi-NCR) which competitors still don’t offer today. For rest of the variants, a manual gearbox again only Fortuner is offering.

Toyota is again the only one offering an option for interior colours and most exterior colours (even though white is the most preferred). Dealer and service network is the next most important parameter which has been a Toyota strong point.

Features were never Toyota’s strong point, they still use a decade old infotainment system. It’s still the case even in USA, not just India.

The issue with most people on social media is that they have cemented the 2016 Fortuner’s bad qualities in their minds like bad ride quality (still remains for the 2021, but has improved slightly), high cabin noise filtering through, strained engine (177ps 2.8L) without even stepping into the 2021 Facelift Fortuner; which has improved on almost every count except ride quality.

No car is perfect;
-Fortuner has it’s weaknesses like ride quality, fewer features and high initial ownership cost.
-Endeavour has a sole weakness which is it’s downsized engine.
-Alturas has a manufacturer weakness, where Mahindra itself is not interested in selling one. Dealers hardly have display cars forget test-drive vehicles and off-roading capabilities are not great.
-Gloster’s engine + gearbox is lacklustre.

Now Different Strokes for Different Folks, no one is forcing anyone to buy any of these body-on-frame SUVs. If buyer is going to spend anywhere between ₹40-45Lakh, he is going to do a thorough check on all of them and still think 5-10 times before plonking in that kind of money, there can’t be any mob-mentality here!

Mob-mentality will be when say a person buys a car after seeing that his neighbor bought one, no such a thing is possible in the pricey ₹40-45Lakh range.

And just to say no media person/house likes the Fortuner, be it Faisal Khan on one end and Autocar on the other. No harm in that, they aren’t the ones who are going to be buying one, we are the ones who are going to spend our hard-earned money on them.

I can understand if someone says, he bought the Hyundai Creta/Kia Seltos based on so and so’s review but that will never take place above the ₹25-30Lakh mark.

Autocar and various other publications have come out and said that the MG Gloster is the best! But did anyone believe that, simple answer is no!

[asm3899_CHD]

Originally Posted by aastiksaluja

I had a quick read of the post the first time. Now that I was drawn towards it, I reread your post and rewatched Gagan's video and I think it's a fair review, putting it out as it is.

Gagan's review of the car was one of the worst reviews of any car I have seen in the last 2-3 years maybe or in my life. For instance, he said the front seats are not comfortable. Common, the seats of Fortuner offer better comfort than Endeavour and have better bolstering. There are many more points and other bhpians have covered them. Also before you think that I am a Fortuner owner who is justifying his vehicle. I used to own 2018 Fortuner which I sold 2 months back and had booked new Fortuner but cancelled the booking as I was bored with Fortuner and the new car was essentially the same with some upgrades. But those who have driven or had the Fortuner for some time know that he was just showing his personal hatred for the car in the review by criticising about things which are all right and good enough. I did not want to interfere in this thread with useless information but seeing the continuous hatred bashing of a brilliant vehicle I could not resist. Also, Toyotas have always been overpriced for the goodies and features they offer, there is no need criticising the Toyota premium because they actually are robust vehicles and will offer more in the long run even with the premium charged because of long engine life and Excellent re-sale. I sold my 2018 December Fortuner 4x2 automatic after driving 10,939 kms in March for 32.25 lakhs. I had bought it for 35 lakhs OTR. Sure the mileage was very low but still the car was with me for slightly more than 2 years. No other vehicle would have given me this much re-sale. Toyota Fortuner is a great car and we should rather discuss our experiences, pros and cons of the vehicle rather than humiliating the people who have bought the vehicle.

[Technic90]

Originally Posted by aastiksaluja

"Alturas is Better' unsettled some strong nerves there

It was a joke because a reviewer preferring a soon to be discontinued model is funny. For me it looks like people are frustrated because Fortuner and Innova Crysta seems to be sending many models into oblivion. Rexton, Alturas and now Marazzo.

Originally Posted by aastiksaluja

A fellow mate already laid it out over here. I rewatched just to see if there were hints of motivated tarnishing, but sorry to say it's on point.

You think the review is on point without even taking TD of the car! You somehow know fuel economy is 6-7 kmpl and front seats are not adequate without owning one or taking test drive? Ok I am done. No point discussing blind hatred. But I am open to discussing the list of horrible issues in Fortuner that you earlier mentioned. I am still waiting for it.

[CalmConquests]

I am seeing a lot of heated discussion here in this thread.

Ive owned a pre-facelift 2017 4x4 MT car that i just sold & I've booked a facelift 4x4 AT.

So i have been using this generation of the fortuner extensively over the last 4 years. If anyone would like to know anything specific about the car, I will be happy to answer.

Stay safe everyone.

[GTO]

Mod Note: YouTube reviews have been discussed enough. Now, let's get back on-topic and discuss only the 2021 Fortuner / Legender / Team-BHP Review. Thanks for the support & understanding

[PrideRed]

2-3 years ago Fortuner almost always came last in comparison tests except engine performance. Slowly and steadily, Fortuner is gaining popularity among reviewers and buyers in Australia. After head to head to Prado, here is a latest comparison against Pajero Sport.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlE2SbFUW9A&t=12s

[krishnakarthik1]

The Fortuner and Innova are not over priced but they are unaffordable and that's why you find a lot of people complaining.

If we talk straight, to buy a 45 Lakh car one needs to have a certain financial discipline. And when you in that category your priorities change. I am not saying that extra 5-6 lakhs will not matter but what will matter more is to not get stranded on the road in the middle of the night and not spend days at the service center.

Hence an ideal car has to be in the background and do it's job everyday without fail for a very long time and lose less value doing so. Right now the Toyota brothers do exactly that. That way, the Fortuner and Innova are 'value for money' products in my view.

[Venkatesh]

Performance run figures and NVH comparison at 100km/h on Highways

https://youtu.be/bqNU37P4ebQ