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Old 8th September 2021, 11:38   #16
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Default Re: Tata Tigor Electric Review

In my opinion TaMo should first produce a halo product. A nice, fast, sub 5 sec. car that scorches tarmac. All this effort trying to cater to the mass market from the get go seems to stem from a fear of trying not to lose out in erupting market of BEVs. Unfortunately, these cars aren't iconic enough in the looks or performance department.

I fear these offerings will be relegated to the forgotten, "also-ran" pages of history when the Korean and Chinese offerings drop.

TATA, if you want to make an impact, give us a nice sharp looking, performant, tarmac scorcher and stop outfitting ICE offerings with electric drives.
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Old 8th September 2021, 11:45   #17
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Default Re: Tata Tigor Electric Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by slamnos View Post
While we are discussing about the low cost of running for EVs, have we wondered what does it cost to replace batteries at the end of the battery health ?

Dirt cheap running cost "NOT" = Dirt cheap ownership cost.
That completely depends on the quality of the batteries used and the quality of the battery management hardware and software. Li-ion battery management and life span has been well researched and is a solved problem. Execution is what matters. Tesla batteries are known to degrade less than 10% even after 200000 miles. Even the Teslas from 2014 have only degraded 20%.

Source 1
Source 2

Li-ion batteries have also been used in satellites for decades and seem to do just fine. So, it is not the batteries per se, you should be worried about but the expertise of the manufacturer.

Last edited by Electromotive : 8th September 2021 at 12:00.
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Old 8th September 2021, 11:59   #18
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Default Re: Tata Tigor Electric Review

To have a better understanding of the TCO Ė Total Cost of Ownership of a Electric Car, I have done the below calculations.
Assumption; -
1) Daily 100KMS
2) Monthly 20day of using car = 2,000Kms/Month
3) Car life of 5years = 120,000kms in 5years.
4) Cost of Electricity = INR 1,80,000.00/- (1KM = 1.50INR)
5) Cost of Tigor = INR 11,00,000.00/-
6) TCO for 5years = INR 12, 80,000.00/- (Cost of Electricity + Cost of Tigor EV)
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Old 8th September 2021, 12:05   #19
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Default Re: Tata Tigor Electric Review

While comparing fuel costs alone, for one to hit break even period (in comparison to Petrol variant) one has to drive about 63,000 kilometres and with about 10,000 km of annual usage it is 6 years away (excluding any interest cost for premium paid) If we factor in service costs and ever increasing fuel cost, the break in period may arrive sooner though.
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Old 8th September 2021, 12:22   #20
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Default Re: Tata Tigor Electric Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
I'm very proud that Tata has snatched the first-mover advantage away from Mahindra, and is selling this world-class technology at attainable prices while Maruti sells 20-year old 4-speed AT gearboxes, Honda still keeps harping about its "Yo Vtec" technology from the 1990s and VW-Skoda couldn't even make their 1.5L Diesel BS6 compliant. In the midst of these outdated / lazy approaches comes Tata offering cutting-edge tech .
[/ATTACH]
My thinking is exactly on your same lines.

It is TaMo and I would also say MG that seem very serious about taking the first mover advantage in the EV market. The Nexon EV selling 1,000 + units, the MG ZS at around 200-300 units per month is a very very small start but over the coming years will both grow and establish these brands as THE Ev car brands in buyer minds.

Like you said, the likes of MS, VW / Skoda could not even plan for and manage the transition into BS6, let alone the leap into EV. Surprised that the otherwise savy Koreans are not making any aggressive moves in this segment though, aside from the expensive Kona.

On the subject of the review, this bit was confusing, can someone throw light on this please?

The Tigor EV gets a CCS Type 2 charging port, which is currently the standard for electric vehicles in India. The estimated charging time from 0-80% from a 15A plug point is about 8 hours & 45 minutes. A 25 kW DC fast charger can charge the batteries to 80% in 65 minutes. For a DC fast charger, you will have to pay ~Rs. 18-20 per unit. So a full tank would be Rs. 520 in just over an hour.


DC or AC, isn't power charged the same? Why is DC charging cost more?
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Old 8th September 2021, 12:35   #21
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Default Re: Tata Tigor Electric Review

Is it me or this plastic housing the gear lever looks unfinished & rough? For a supposedly premium product, shouldn't such plastic bits be finished better?

Tata really needs to get away from it's Indica level plastics. Their cars is being bought by general public now, not just taxi drivers who might be okay with rough edges.

Tata Tigor Electric Review-2021tatatigorev16.jpg

Also, couldn't this battery pack be finished a bit better? Maybe they could have silkscreened/stamped with something like 'Ziptron by Tata' or something in big lettering? Maybe the corners could be chamfered as well. This battery case looks like something a local fabricator fixed up using 4mm plates.

Tata Tigor Electric Review-2021tatatigorev24.jpg

Last edited by Desi Dybuk : 8th September 2021 at 12:47. Reason: Spelling
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Old 8th September 2021, 13:18   #22
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Default Re: Tata Tigor Electric Review

Quote:
Is it me or this plastic housing the gear lever looks unfinished & rough? For a supposedly premium product, shouldn't such plastic bits be finished better?

Tata really needs to get away from it's Indica level plastics. Their cars is being bought by general public now, not just taxi drivers who might be okay with rough edges.
Not sure how it is in the Tigor, but I own a 2015 Zest with 1 lakh+ kms on the odometer. The plastic and the build quality is top-notch. Not a single rattle yet. And looks good for another 1 lakh km easily. The only area I see signs of wear and tear is the key fob.
Previously having driven Maruti, my primary grouse was rattles, which would appear mysteriously (almost) after every service.

Last edited by vasanthn21 : 8th September 2021 at 13:41.
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Old 8th September 2021, 13:45   #23
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Default Re: Tata Tigor Electric Review

Good to see they are using Lithium Ion phosphate batteries which are considered generally safer than Li-Ion (Nickel). They are also used in Tesla Y sold in China.

The underbody needs better protection though.

With even 80km of daily running the breakeven should be within 5 years. The battery pack has 8 years of warranty.

@striborg The DC charging costs are higher because the setup is costly. You need to pump those high amps thus need specialised semiconductors and high capacity power electronics. Combined with (probably) commerical electricity rate it costs higher to charge at a public DC fast charger.
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Old 8th September 2021, 13:57   #24
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Default Re: Tata Tigor Electric Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by Electromotive View Post
That completely depends on the quality of the batteries used and the quality of the battery management hardware and software. Li-ion battery management and life span has been well researched and is a solved problem. Execution is what matters. Tesla batteries are known to degrade less than 10% even after 200000 miles. Even the Teslas from 2014 have only degraded 20%.

Li-ion batteries have also been used in satellites for decades and seem to do just fine. So, it is not the batteries per se, you should be worried about but the expertise of the manufacturer.
The supplier of batteries for Tesla isnt the one supplying for Tata, and it is not comparable. Tesla has far superior batteries, degrade may not be much of a concern.

Ideal comparison would be with Mahindra E2O and e-Verito, the batteries in these cars may perform at 50% of their capacity after 75k kms.

Battery supplier certainly matters in this case, why shouldnt one worry about the batteries ?
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Old 8th September 2021, 14:10   #25
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Default Re: Tata Tigor Electric Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by slamnos View Post
While we are discussing about the low cost of running for EVs, have we wondered what does it cost to replace batteries at the end of the battery health ?

I reckon the total cost of ownership would eventually come up to premium paid initially for EV and the battery replacement cost after few years. If one chooses not to replace battery and sell it off, he may get scrap value for selling an EV without a battery.

Dirt cheap running cost "NOT" = Dirt cheap ownership cost.
There is still a lot of misinformation being spread about EV`s. Everyone talks only about cost of running and service cost, giving an incomplete picture of the savings. Seen many times queries about cost of battery, when it comes to replacement ( after 8 years). In these 8 years, cost of ICE rebuild, clutch plates in case of manual, gearbox overhaul in case of AT, Turbo, Water pumps, Brake pads, Brake discs, timing chain/belt, plugs, Exhaust, Pollution checks etc is not even considered. Currently battery costs at about 120$/KW, in 8 years is anyone`s guess, but can easily expect half of it and you get a more reasonable picture. I know a person here who has a Chevy bolt for 5 years, driven more than 120,000 kms and done only 1 annual service, every year. with the savings in fuel and maintanance compared to a Golf GTI, he reckons he can buy a new car now. There is no comparison on costs when you take into account all factors. This is my humble opinion and hoping not to hurt any sentiments
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Old 8th September 2021, 14:16   #26
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Default Re: Tata Tigor Electric Review

I don't understand why Tata feels the need to add those garish blue trims on the exterior. I'd buy an EV for its benefits, not to be noticed in. The car doesn't need to scream that runs on electricity.
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Old 8th September 2021, 14:20   #27
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Default Re: Tata Tigor Electric Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by slamnos View Post
The supplier of batteries for Tesla isnt the one supplying for Tata, and it is not comparable. Tesla has far superior batteries, degrade may not be much of a concern.

Ideal comparison would be with Mahindra E2O and e-Verito, the batteries in these cars may perform at 50% of their capacity after 75k kms.

Battery supplier certainly matters in this case, why shouldnt one worry about the batteries ?
That was precisely my point. The longevity of the battery pack depends on who manufactures it and how it is charged and discharged. Tesla's batteries aren't all that special; they are manufactured under license from Panasonic. I think TATA also sources its batteries from the handful of Li-ion battery manufacturers (LG Chem, CATL, Panasonic) and they are comparable in quality. I think they use LG Chem since JLR uses the same supplier. The BMS and other hardware is also pretty standardized by the battery suppliers themselves. TaMo isnt' doing much other than assembling things.

Unless TATA is doing some extreme tweaking with battery management you can surely expect batteries to have longevity comparable to the i-pace if not Tesla. Comparison to E2O or verito is unfair, their tech has been outdated for almost a decade.
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Old 8th September 2021, 14:43   #28
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Default Re: Tata Tigor Electric Review

It'll take you about 1 lakh km to recover the higher upfront cost of the Tigor EV over the Tigor AMT.

This is based on the ex-showroom price and doesn't factor in the following:
- less range per "tank full"
- planning before going on a road trip
- higher depreciation because of higher upfront cost, batteries getting cheaper, better EVs coming up in the future
- opportunity cost/ higher interest rate applicable on the delta between Tigor AMT and Tigor EV
- lower maintenance costs for Tigor EV

To recover the cost, you better be ready to clock 1.6 lakh km in 8 years while the battery is still under warranty. This thing is perfect for a taxi. Fleet owners may be able to squeeze some savings out of this.

Compare this with Ola S1. With the Ola scooter, you can recover the entire upfront cost in about 40,000km. You can recover the delta over a petrol Activa in under 20,000km. In my books, this is the benchmark. Even if you can recover the delta in 40-50k, the EV is worth it. Else, it's not making financial sense to me.

Last edited by MaheshY1 : 8th September 2021 at 14:50.
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Old 8th September 2021, 15:03   #29
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Default Re: Tata Tigor Electric Review

Agreed that this is taxi material - 200 km a day at 20 kmph is ten hours of driving. Or maybe EESL lease to govt departments. If they can forego fuel allowance. It seems like it is not unusual for a govt departmentís fuel spend to be half fuel and half, um, pocket money.

The new BYD Dolphin EV is about 11.6 lakhs (base spec) in China after subsidies (about two lakhs worth, so probably less than the GST concession here). Itís a ground up EV with a battery that is almost twice the size, better performance and more room.

PS my first post, been a lurker forever. Cheers everyone.
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Old 8th September 2021, 15:29   #30
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Default Re: Tata Tigor Electric Review

Our market is predominantly ICE based market, to convert this in to EV needs to have financial sense for a common man point of view. I recall those days when Petrol cost Vs Diesel cost was compared every now and then.
This is a similar situation, i will prefer to stick to my Diesel Tiago rather than moving to Tigor EV at the moment and spend the excess calculated amount in procuring Diesel for my use.
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