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Old 3rd May 2022, 16:16   #61
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Default Re: Honda City Hybrid Review

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Originally Posted by SKC-auto View Post
If I am not wrong in engine mode, battery charging does not happen, I guess it's battery and motor assisting the engine.
Nope in engine mode the battery does not assist the engine and the opposite happens. The engine drives the wheels but charges the battery as well.

When you see the powerflow meter in the image with the engine mode, you can see the arrow moves from engine to wheels and engine to battery both.
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Old 3rd May 2022, 19:52   #62
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Default Re: Honda City Hybrid Review

Loved everything with this release except the space factor. Honda is essentially selling the utility of a car smaller than Jazz ( with the reduced boot space ) at a 5 lakhs plus premium over the costliest City.

They should have figured out a way to tuck in the ev components under the rear seat like in the Camry. That would have made this a great release. I'm looking at a hybrid as a potential 2nd car and I'll give this a miss for now.
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Old 3rd May 2022, 21:24   #63
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Default Re: Honda City Hybrid Review

Revolutionizing tech for sure, but I feel this should have been better choice for at least two segment above cars, like Accord with a premium of 5 lakhs or so. City costing 20 lakhs (my guess) is something un-justifiable for me personally, while an Innova costs around this price and it is going to initiate discussions for the VFM-ness. The one thing I like is that Honda manages to eliminate gearbox altogether, not like Toyota's hybrid which is an full ICE with gearbox package. Initially, I was interested with City but then, I felt this is too complex and might not work for my use (2nd car after an Innova) especially with the price of 20 lakhs around.
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Old 3rd May 2022, 21:46   #64
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Default Re: Honda City Hybrid Review

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They should have figured out a way to tuck in the ev components under the rear seat like in the Camry. That would have made this a great release. I'm looking at a hybrid as a potential 2nd car and I'll give this a miss for now.
The sad part is Toyota has the CH-R hybrid and the Yaris hybrid hatchback. They could have easily gotten the Hybrid versions in these and dominated the segment since they were so behind in EV.

Instead they took the easy way out and started selling Maruti's in their showrooms.

If you are waiting for a second car and want a Hybrid the choice you will have is Maruti's lame smart hybrid tech rebadged as a Toyota.

Toyota's apathy to the indian buyer shows with the line up they have in the showroom.

Atleast Honda is waking up.
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Old 3rd May 2022, 22:13   #65
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Default Re: Honda City Hybrid Review

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If you are waiting for a second car and want a Hybrid the choice you will have is Maruti's lame smart hybrid tech rebadged as a Toyota.
Nah, I'm not going to fall for those "fake/pseudo hybrids"
I'll wait for more strong Hybrid releases from both Toyota and Honda. I'm hoping that the City is just a start of an era of Hybrids that are going to hit our market. The kind of complexity that's involved with Hybrids, I'm not going to think beyond Toyota/Honda here. They are the best hybrid manufacturers globally!
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Old 3rd May 2022, 22:15   #66
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Default Re: Honda City Hybrid Review

Lovely tech laden car. Wonder if this would lead to HONDA service going the SKODA way!!

The fact is such high tech vehicles need above average understanding to operate / utilise the car without complaints.

GoodLuck Honda and Thanks for the tech!
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Old 4th May 2022, 00:39   #67
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Default Re: Honda City Hybrid Review

Time for some maths I suppose? Forgive any mistakes,
this is quite off the cuff with quick google-fu.

feel free to correct my efficiency or price calculations.

City Petrol Price ~ 15,00,000
Efficiency ~ 15km/ltr

Cost of Petrol - 110 Rs/ltr

City Hybrid Price ~20,00,000
Efficiency ~ 23 km/ltr


Per km running cost of Petrol City
110/15 = 7.33 Rs/km

Per km running cost of Hybrid City
110/23 = 4.78 Rs/km

Delta R - Running cost difference = 2.55 Rs/km

Delta B -Buying cost difference = 5 lakh Rupees (A)

Kilometres to drive in order to recoup initial extra expenditure = Delta B/Delta R = 5,00,000/2.55
= ~1,96,000 kilometres.

If the price difference is only 3 lakhs (optimistic)

the kms to break even would be 1,17,647 kms

So basically buying the hybrid is not that much of a money saver.

Tata Nexon Petrol - On road price - 9,85,000

Tata Nexon EV - On road price -15,32,000

Running cost of Nexon Petrol - 110/18 = 6.1

Running cost of Nexon EV -
Electricity - Rs 5/kWh
Nexon uses 119 Wh/Km = 0.12Kwh/km
Nexon costs 0.6 Rupees to run per kilometre



Running Delta = 6.1-0.6 = 5.5

Buying Delta = 5,47,000

Kilometres driven to recoup = 109,000km

Electricity can be cheaper at Rs 3/kWh so Km to recoup might go down to 95,000km


I guess this is the writing on the wall. Making hybrids costs extra money in terms of maybe retooling plants etc etc. and you get efficiency boost of around 7-8kmpl.
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Old 4th May 2022, 03:23   #68
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Default Re: Honda City Hybrid Review

I felt that it would have been a very good product, if it had the function of a plugin facility and a battery pack that can go around 100kms on pure electric mode. Here Honda is close to that, but people still have to fill it up with petrol. With the 'plugin' option, there can be a huge portion of the population, that can just use electricity from home to topup, while doing away with range anxiety for longer runs.
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Old 4th May 2022, 07:25   #69
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Default Re: Honda City Hybrid Review

This honda hybrid is an incredible piece of engineering, I found this following link for details of this Honda tech.
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Old 4th May 2022, 08:19   #70
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Default Re: Honda City Hybrid Review

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Originally Posted by Dosanova View Post
Time for some maths I suppose? Forgive any mistakes,
this is quite off the cuff with quick google-fu.

feel free to correct my efficiency or price calculations.

City Petrol Price ~ 15,00,000
Efficiency ~ 15km/ltr

Cost of Petrol - 110 Rs/ltr

City Hybrid Price ~20,00,000
Efficiency ~ 23 km/ltr

Electricity can be cheaper at Rs 3/kWh so Km to recoup might go down to 95,000km

I guess this is the writing on the wall. Making hybrids costs extra money in terms of maybe retooling plants etc etc. and you get efficiency boost of around 7-8kmpl.
I would say that 15kmpl for City petrol is optimistic. Make it more like 11-12 kmpl on a typical mixed use cycle. That will further lengthen the breakeven time. What you have eventually demonstrated is that neither the Hybrid nor EV are a direct substitute for an ICE car at the moment. They are both good to make a "statement" for green usage, but thats about it.
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Old 4th May 2022, 08:44   #71
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Default Re: Honda City Hybrid Review

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Originally Posted by fhdowntheline View Post
I would say that 15kmpl for City petrol is optimistic. Make it more like 11-12 kmpl on a typical mixed use cycle. That will further lengthen the breakeven time. What you have eventually demonstrated is that neither the Hybrid nor EV are a direct substitute for an ICE car at the moment. They are both good to make a "statement" for green usage, but thats about it.
if we make the Petrol mileage 11kmpl, the kilometres to recoup drops down to near 1,00,000 kms actually.

anyways the day there is a 10 lakh electric car, the market will flip is my prediction. most people buy car to commute and nothing beats electric for commutes
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Old 4th May 2022, 08:55   #72
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Default Re: Honda City Hybrid Review

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Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
Air-Conditioning

The compressor in this case is an electric compressor like the ones at home powered by the Li-ion battery pack in the boot. The air-conditioning was effective with the temperature in Bangalore above 35C and we never had to keep the climate control temp below 23C for the 2 of us sitting in front. The blower speed however was at level 4 or 5 to keep the temperature under control. It sounded as if it was working hard to cool the cabin. We also realised that you have to either lower the temperature of the climate control to 20-21C or increase blower speed (manual mode) for the rear seat passengers to be happy.
This can be a big issue in many states which see over 45 regularly. The battery size is already very small so the Compressor size may be a compromise by Honda. Will be interesting to check reviews at high ambient temperatures.

The concept is simple, we waste a lot of fuel when engine output is not used fully, so they route the extra energy to the battery. Good on paper but practically not easy and efficient to implement. After adding all those batteries, motors and special drive, the end result is a tiny EV range and small savings on the fuel ( averaging urban and highway use) I will instead consider a pure EV or pure IC.

Will be very surprised if this gets any decent numbers. Members comparing this with Camry and other Lexus hybrids, those cars are sold because of the package they present, I will not see a dip in their sales if they offer purely IC, rather, they may even get higher numbers (with reduced prices) on most Lexus variants without hybrids.

Last edited by Turbanator : 4th May 2022 at 08:57.
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Old 4th May 2022, 09:36   #73
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Default Re: Honda City Hybrid Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dosanova View Post
Time for some maths I suppose? Forgive any mistakes,
this is quite off the cuff with quick google-fu.

feel free to correct my efficiency or price calculations.

City Petrol Price ~ 15,00,000
Efficiency ~ 15km/ltr

Cost of Petrol - 110 Rs/ltr

City Hybrid Price ~20,00,000
Efficiency ~ 23 km/ltr


Per km running cost of Petrol City
110/15 = 7.33 Rs/km

Per km running cost of Hybrid City
110/23 = 4.78 Rs/km

Delta R - Running cost difference = 2.55 Rs/km

Delta B -Buying cost difference = 5 lakh Rupees (A)

Kilometres to drive in order to recoup initial extra expenditure = Delta B/Delta R = 5,00,000/2.55
= ~1,96,000 kilometres.

If the price difference is only 3 lakhs (optimistic)

the kms to break even would be 1,17,647 kms

So basically buying the hybrid is not that much of a money saver.
Good numbers and this is what I was expecting as well that in terms of real numbers it may not make much sense. However there are a few intangibles that make a case for themselves.

1. The Hybrid EV also has ADAS which adds further additional cost delta over the petrol. It's not fair that factor that in the running cost of the Hybrid as you are getting that extra safety net. It's like paying more for 6 airbags variant over 2. The extra cost of 6 airbags can be used to fill fuel for 2-3 years.

2. Hybrid system is more complex but is also more gentle on few components like brake pads and the IC engine itself since it is not on all the time. Ofcourse this is offset if you need a battery replacement after 8 years.

3. There are many people who don't mind the additional upfront 3-4L cost of the Hybrid if their monthly fuel bill reduces by 35-40%.

4. If fuel prices keep going up every fill up will be an even bigger pinch and Hybrid will just make you feel a little more at ease.

5. The satisfaction of sitting in absolutely useless traffic in cities like Bangalore and not burning fuel or even when in Hybrid mode seeing 20Kmpl is just priceless. I literally cringe sitting in my 3 series seeing the FE drop down to 6kmpl on fuel getting wasted in traffic vs blowing it up ripping on an empty highway.

I also have a Corolla Altis and if I had a use case for a daily running fuel efficient car, I would seriously consider a City Hybrid over my Corolla Altis that gets me 8-9kmpl in traffic.

For someone looking at City Hybrid they might be looking at the Korean SUV twins as well which in the top trims are 17-18L ex showroom or 3L over the regular City. Both have turbo petrol engines which give single digit FE in town. However their diesels atleast today make more sense than City Hybrid till the BS6.2 norms kick in.

Honda just needs to seriously get the pricing right. Anything more than the Slavia 1.5L and they are going to have a tough time justifying the Hybrid over a 1.5L TSI and DSG box. The Hybrid with simpler NA engine and electric battery and motor ideally should cost same as a complex turbo petrol + even more complex DSG box.
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Old 4th May 2022, 10:32   #74
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Default Re: Honda City Hybrid Review

Was looking forward to this Team-BHP review since a long time. I'm pretty convinced on this technology for the next 10 years. I believe pure electric is practical for all-round usage only by then. However do we have any Hybrid cars / muv on the cards for Indian market which is a 6/7 seater ?
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Old 4th May 2022, 10:42   #75
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Default Re: Honda City Hybrid Review

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Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post

Honda Sensing

Adaptive Cruise Control (ACC)
This is a radar based cruise control and the most practical feature of the suite.
As far as i have read, the Honda Sensing system in the City Hybrid only has a Front Camera for all the ADAS features and there is no radar module present.
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