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Old 4th May 2022, 14:27   #106
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Default Re: Honda City Hybrid Review

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Originally Posted by Dieseltuned View Post
Also, comparing this with ZX would not be a fair comparison. Lets compare this with existing cars that have the ADAS in them for example the XUV 700.
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Originally Posted by gauravdgr8 View Post
Let's not compare it with a ZX but with something that offers the ADAS features or in a similar price segment.
Others have already pointed out that comparing the City and the XUV700 is not fair given they are different types of vehicles in different segments.

On top of that, even if comparing ADAS-to-ADAS, they are not the same type. The City uses camera (visual) based ADAS which will (according to some Honda Sensing manuals I could find) be affected by heavy rains, snow, fog and low light. The XUV700 uses radar based ADAS which is much more robust.
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Old 4th May 2022, 14:30   #107
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Default Re: Honda City Hybrid Review

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Originally Posted by lordrayden View Post

On top of that, even if comparing ADAS-to-ADAS, they are not the same type. The City uses camera (visual) based ADAS which will (according to some Honda Sensing manuals I could find) be affected by heavy rains, snow, fog and low light. The XUV700 uses radar based ADAS which is much more robust.
With regards to camera vs RADAR, it might not be as simple as that. To put things in perspective, Tesla ditched RADAR based ADAS for the camera based systems for all their future offerings.
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Old 4th May 2022, 14:33   #108
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Default Re: Honda City Hybrid Review

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Originally Posted by dr.delete View Post
Quick back of the envelop calculations:

PS: I have not considered the interest paid for the premium amount which will be added to the loan amount and neither have I considered the cost of opportunity that the premium amount would earn if invested otherwise.
Thanks for sharing this, this is roughly what I had in mind. At a 5.5L premium over the City ZX Petrol, a payback period of 4 years with 30k annual running (which is 2500kms a month - or 83kms every single day within the city!!) is not good!

And this isn't including interest paid/opportunity cost or even the increased OTR resulting from the increased ex-showroom prices!

And as @Vid6639 pointed out, most of the ADAS features won't be too useful in the city (where the Hybrid will be most efficient) and this car won't be as good as the City iVTEC for longer road trips on the highways (lower boot space, less powerful engine, heavier weight of hybrid power-train resulting in similar efficiency) where ADAS would shine. Why not release it without ADAS but at a lower price point for city commuters?
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Old 4th May 2022, 14:39   #109
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Default Re: Honda City Hybrid Review

There probably should have been subsidies for the Hybrid tech which Honda has got here. It would have reduced the price differential with the petrol, at least a bit. For someone with low running, that too with boot space comparable to a hatchback, and the higher initial cost, it is is just better to get the regular ZX CVT or actually a Slavia (which is much more fun to drive).
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Old 4th May 2022, 14:42   #110
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Default Re: Honda City Hybrid Review

This is similar to the Civic hybrid they launched and they failed with it. Anyone looking at this hybrid over a normal City would only do so because of the high mileage and fuel savings. But with this premium price that advantage is gone. The regular City ZX is already overpriced to begin with and this additional cost is not justified to me even with ADAS which is almost useless in day to day traffic in India. Don't forget this is not an EV and so the scrappage policy still applies. So in 15 years you have to run atleast a couple of lakh kms to recover that cost. You compromise on boot space, driving pleasure etc for fuel economy but the steep pricing will be a big hindrance for their success. If I'm not wrong this hybrid City is going to cost more than the Civic petrol VX if not ZX that was discontinued not so long ago. It will remain a niche product.
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Old 4th May 2022, 14:47   #111
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Default Re: Honda City Hybrid Review

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Originally Posted by amalji View Post
With regards to camera vs RADAR, it might not be as simple as that. To put things in perspective, Tesla ditched RADAR based ADAS for the camera based systems for all their future offerings.
Sure, FUTURE Tesla models will have camera based ADAS. That would mean a lot of cutting edge research and development is currently going on at the labs of the market leader in ADAS. I doubt we can compare that with what Honda came up with some time in the past . Teslaís tech will be in a different league.

Iím sure Honda Sensing will improve over time, but as it is now, I feel it canít be compared to what the XUV700 offers.
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Old 4th May 2022, 14:50   #112
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Default Re: Honda City Hybrid Review

Definitely pricey I feel! Given the price I think it will cater only to a niche market. Maybe now Honda city diesel will see an upswing in sales given the rising fuel prices. I hope they price that SUV sensibly whenever they launch it.
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Old 4th May 2022, 14:51   #113
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Default Re: Honda City Hybrid Review

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Originally Posted by Palio_2005 View Post
I don't think HC gives 15 kpl in city. If I am correct it should be an average 10-11 kpl in a city like Mumbai. Honda owners please comment.
That's correct, I have a 2017 Petrol CVT and I get 15 only on highways. City mileage for me is always about 9-11.

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Originally Posted by lordrayden View Post
Sure, FUTURE Tesla models will have camera based ADAS. That would mean a lot of cutting edge research and development is currently going on at the labs of the market leader in ADAS. I doubt we can compare that with what Honda came up with some time in the past . Teslaís tech will be in a different league.

Iím sure Honda Sensing will improve over time, but as it is now, I feel it canít be compared to what the XUV700 offers.
Although RADAR/LiDAR are much superior accuracy wise, camera-only ADAS as of now is pretty advanced.

Taking the XUV700 as an example, it uses a combination of Camera+Radar for ACC which was launched by Intel's Mobileye way back in 2007. The newer gen mobil eye ADAS systems use camera-only ADAS and from the looks of it, they plan on ditching any radio based sensor completely. Check the attached roadmap.

Tldr; Honda sense should be just as accurate (maybe even more) as XUV700.

Honda City Hybrid Review-screenshot-20220504-2.59.04-pm.png

Last edited by Tanmay007 : 4th May 2022 at 15:01.
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Old 4th May 2022, 15:00   #114
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Default Re: Honda City Hybrid Review

No doubt Honda has come out with an engineering marvel in terms of the Hybrid e:HEV.
However, there will be only limited takers for the already low volumes sedan segment buyers taking note of this. Alas, the ROI here is very subjective and can defy the practicality of what seems to be fantastic on paper but difficult to appreciate.
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Old 4th May 2022, 15:09   #115
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Default Re: Honda City Hybrid Review

I think these days every manufacturer is trying to outbeat the competitors last exorbitant price.

Honda City was always expensive. The Slavia / Virtus price makes it look VFM now in the non-top models. The Verna may not really match the City, but it is also priced almost 2.5 lakhs lesser onroad than the equivalent city factoring all discounts for the NA model.

Seltos and Creta were expensive, but Kushaq and Taigun prices made the Koreans palatable.

For a little more kit, the City is priced 3.5 lakh ex-showroom more than the standard City in Malaysia. Dont really think, taxes alone are to blame for the India price.

On the contrary, some manufactures have managed to play smart price wise
- Magnite priced very brilliantly at launch with the right loadings. No cheapness.
- Baleno at launch with airbags from base model and undercutting i20 brilliantly.
- XUV700 with 80 % more features than cars costing twice as much.

Honda had a great chance to establish this engine acceptance in India which would pave the way for all future 15-20 lakh products including the anticipated SUV. But they are they.
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Old 4th May 2022, 15:26   #116
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Default Re: Honda City Hybrid Review

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Originally Posted by amalji View Post
I think this will get offset by the increasing fuel prices with time.
I donít think the gradual rise in petrol/diesel prices would offset the huge 5 lakhs premium. The cost of opportunity plus the interest on the premium portion of the loan, both would surely be significantly greater than the rise in fuel prices.

Quote:
With the 40% difference in premium ( 5L --> 3L ), the actual breakeven period should be even faster.
I agree with you on this. I also agree that finances are just a part of the car buying decision. There a zillion other things to consider. I just wanted to share the finance part of it. And for now, purely from the efficiency point of view, which is considered as a big plus for the City Hybrid, I donít think it translates to the real world savings for an average user. In fact, it would definitely take more out of the userís pocket! Again, there are other aspects that one may consider, like the handling, the ride quality, ADAS and stuff, but I donít think at this premium it makes much sense purely based on real world savings.
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Old 4th May 2022, 15:30   #117
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordrayden View Post
Sure, FUTURE Tesla models will have camera based ADAS. That would mean a lot of cutting edge research and development is currently going on at the labs of the market leader in ADAS. I doubt we can compare that with what Honda came up with some time in the past . Teslaís tech will be in a different league.

Iím sure Honda Sensing will improve over time, but as it is now, I feel it canít be compared to what the XUV700 offers.
In fact, even Honda is moving away from Camera + Radar based systems to Camera only ADAS system globally. It's infact supposed to be an improvement from their previous radar based systems.

More details here

Quoting the relevant parts of the article -

Quote:
"The single camera provides a wider field of detection than the previous radar-and-camera based system," the release said. "Combined with software advances and a new, more powerful processor, the system is also capable of more quickly and accurately identifying pedestrians, bicyclists and other vehicles, along with road lines and road signs."
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.delete View Post
I donít think the gradual rise in petrol/diesel prices would offset the huge 5 lakhs premium. The cost of opportunity plus the interest on the premium portion of the loan, both would surely be significantly greater than the rise in fuel prices.
We should only be considering one of them, right ? If we are considering the interest part, then the opportunity costs shouldn't be considered and vice versa.

Last edited by Axe77 : 4th May 2022 at 15:44. Reason: Merging back to back posts.
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Old 4th May 2022, 16:02   #118
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Default Re: Honda City Hybrid Review

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Honda's real mistake is not launching the City Hybrid in a lower variant without the ADAS features. I presume that would knock 2-lakhs off the price
Is the ADAS equipment that expensive? I'm not sure if it actually costs the manufacturer that much! If so, it might be more of an additional sweetener to help buyers digest the price difference.
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Old 4th May 2022, 16:15   #119
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Default Re: Honda City Hybrid Review

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Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez View Post
Is the ADAS equipment that expensive? I'm not sure if it actually costs the manufacturer that much! If so, it might be more of an additional sweetener to help buyers digest the price difference.
No idea whats the actual cost of ADAS system but take a look at what is involved:

1. Camera
2. high performance computing to process the data and take decisions
3. brake actuation without pedal pressure (needs electronic control vs manual hydraulic)
4. steering control without driver inputs. Needs a system that will steer the car without driver inputs
5. all sorts of sensors to monitor the parameters
6. underlying software

I might not have listed everything but all the above won't be in few thousands for sure and might easily bring down the cost closer to the Slavia i.e. under 22.
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Old 4th May 2022, 16:34   #120
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Default Re: Honda City Hybrid Review

In a market where Nexon EV exists, the City Hybrid isn't a slam dunk. But a very large proportion of city folk live in flats where charging an EV isn't practical. And for them, a hybrid is the next best thing. If you have the wherewithal to buy a Creta-class vehicle (in terms of price), and if your daily commute is a chore, I suspect this car will make you happy in more ways than its 20+kmpl FE figures would suggest. You should test drive this car to see if the quietness and smoothness of a hybrid car will make your day better in ways that can justify the price tag. The boot volume bothers me a bit, but I'd say this is still usable for most 3-person families for whatever road trips they take (except to go to the airport). Large suitcases may not fit well, but soft luggage shouldn't be an issue. Adaptive cruise is definitely welcome; automatic high beams too. The rest of Honda Sensing suite aren't much of a draw.
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