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Old 29th August 2022, 12:10   #76
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Default Re: Toyota Urban Cruiser Hyryder Review

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Originally Posted by skumar View Post
I am in same state. Having booked Grand Vitara Zeta AT, awaiting price and Mild hybrid reviews. Hope Maruti reviews will cover Mild Hybrid. Compared to Breeza ZXI, Toyota Urban Cruiser Hyryder - G AT/GV -ZETA AT - misses out Sunroof and gains 4 air bags and better infotainment system (9''), 17'' inch wheels, better interiors and large car. I am expecting 1 to 1.5 lakhs premium over Breeza ZXI price.
Brezza At is already a sedate car! During my long TD, I had to use the paddle shifters many times.
I fear with additional weight of over 100Kgs, Vitara/UC Hyryder will be sluggish.
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Old 29th August 2022, 12:14   #77
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Default Re: Toyota Urban Cruiser Hyryder Review

As usual, an excellent review. Kudos to the team

The car is kind of let down except for the fuel efficiency. Internationally, none of the Toyotas sacrifice as much boot space in hybrids. Even the Prius which had this problem earlier has sorted it in the latest version by pushing the battery pack under the rear seats. Boot space apart, the overall Maruti like interior feel including the below par panoramic sunroof, the 3 cylinder engine and its performance at top speeds are all disappointing.
The only thing good about the car is 20+KMPL FE which is on par with the ranges of cars which Toyota sells internationally.
When I first heard about this rebadging business between Maruti and Toyota along with joint development, I thought this will help Maruti elevate itself to produce some premium segment cars, instead what I see is this partnership is dragging down Toyota to Maruti levels.
If priced right, this may sell well in the 'kitna deti hai' economy in India. Even with misplaced pricing, hopefully it may still not end up like Yaris.
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Old 29th August 2022, 12:32   #78
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Default Re: Toyota Urban Cruiser Hyryder Review

Whatever I have read so far, three things stand out, the hybrid and hence fuel efficiency, the reliability of Toyota Suzuki and low maintenance. It surely will make a dent on the near monopoly of Hyundai-Kia but doubt it will be an industry leader. Hyundai Kia are a step above competition. If only they could have added a powerful engine and industry leading accessories it would have been game to watch. Now It will only be a good pricing which will attract people.
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Old 29th August 2022, 12:45   #79
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Default Re: Toyota Urban Cruiser Hyryder Review

Thanks for the excellent review, which we all have been waiting for!

Given the fact that in above 4 m category, barring xuv 700, no one is getting their cars tested by global ncap, I dont expect this to be any different.
Can we trust this one to be at least a 4 star car as it is based on the Global C platform? Or will it be bit of stretched assumption?
If only Skoda got their Slavia/Kushaq tested, I wouldn't still be looking for options! Wonder why they don't do that if they are so confident!
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Old 29th August 2022, 12:55   #80
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Default Re: Toyota Urban Cruiser Hyryder Review

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Originally Posted by Anupkumar View Post
Thanks for the excellent review, which we all have been waiting for!

Given the fact that in above 4 m category, barring xuv 700, no one is getting their cars tested by global ncap, I dont expect this to be any different.
Can we trust this one to be at least a 4 star car as it is based on the Global C platform? Or will it be bit of stretched assumption?
If only Skoda got their Slavia/Kushaq tested, I wouldn't still be looking for options! Wonder why they don't do that if they are so confident!
Considering it's based on the Global C platform and the old gen Brezza had a 4-star rating, we can reasonably assume the Hyryder/Grand Vitara would score similarly, if not better.
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Old 29th August 2022, 13:55   #81
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Default Re: Toyota Urban Cruiser Hyryder Review

Excellent article as always. The Hyryder in it's strong hybrid guise really makes sense as it offers significant savings in terms of fuel expenses when driven with care. Hybrid cars really do makes sense before the EV infra fully develops.
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Old 29th August 2022, 15:48   #82
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Default Re: Toyota Urban Cruiser Hyryder Review

Excellent review and very interesting read throughout. Being a novice, I have few weird questions. Feel free to put some fun comments or answer them

1. Lithium-ion battery pack is powering the Hyryder.
“Lithium-ion batteries have a higher energy capacity-to-weight ratio compared to NiMH, but operate at higher temperatures, and are subject to thermal instability if not properly manufactured and controlled, raising safety concerns.”
a. How is it going to impact the maintenance cost in the long run? What is covered within the 8-year warranty purview?
b. Since the battery is constantly charging and discharging, how does it mitigate a limited charge cycle of a Li-Ion battery or what is the limit?
c. There are vents inside the cabin to keep the battery cool. What happens when the car is stands still in an open parking during Indian summer for days or weeks? What is the impact?
d. Is there an IP rating for the battery or compartment? What happens when the car moves through waterlogged streets?

2. The latest Toyota hybrid system (THS-II) is fourth Generation Hybrid Synergy Drive uses Dual Motor Drive System, MG1(Generator) and MG2(Motor) along with the ICE.
“The Motor Speed Reduction Device (a second planetary gear set found only in the Third Generation P410 and P510 transaxles), and which connects the traction motor directly to the Power Split Device, and thereafter to the wheels, has been replaced with parallel gears on the Fourth Generation P610 transaxle. The P610 transaxle employs helical gears rather than the straight-cut spur gears employed in the earlier transaxles, and which run more smoothly and quietly, while also accommodating higher mechanical loads.”

a. Can anyone tell what is the setup used in Hyryder?
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Old 29th August 2022, 15:53   #83
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Default Re: Toyota Urban Cruiser Hyryder Review

I am in the market to buy a compact SUV. I tried a break-even calculation for Hyryder, by comparing it with a similar Car

In my opinion, closest CSUV to Toyota Hyryder Strong Hybrid V variant in terms of performance and features is Hyundai Creta SX (O) IVT. OTR price for this Creta variant is 20 lacs in Mumbai.

Assuming average petrol price during span of ownership as Rs 130 and yearly running of 15,000 Km

Hyryder priced 2 lacs above aforementioned Creta variant will take 4.4 years to break-even.
Hyryder priced 3 lacs above aforementioned Creta variant will take 6.7 years to break-even.


Assuming average petrol price during span of ownership as Rs 120 and yearly running of 15,000 Km

Hyryder priced 2 lacs above aforementioned Creta variant will take 4.8 years to break-even.
Hyryder priced 3 lacs above aforementioned Creta variant will take 7.2 years to break-even.

I have assumed claimed fuel efficiency to maintain parity (Hyryder 28kmpl & Creta 17 kmpl).

Break even period will only increase if your yearly running is lower.
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Old 29th August 2022, 16:10   #84
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Default Re: Toyota Urban Cruiser Hyryder Review

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Originally Posted by baarish84 View Post
I am in the market to buy a compact SUV. I tried a break-even calculation for Hyryder, by comparing it with a similar Car
======
Break even period will only increase if your yearly running is lower.
I did a similar exercise. As per my calculation based on KMs you drive it will vary the figure. However an approximate saving would be around 2-3 lakhs.

With that you compromise on the performance (eCVT over DCT/TC), fit and finish (Maruti) and NVH levels. But at the same time Hyryder will come up with better safety ratings (so called C platform).

Other than Creta and Astor no one else is offering a panoramic sunroof (petrol) if that is something you aspire and compare.

The only thing I am skeptical about is the maintenance cost of the overall complex hybrid system which totally uncharted waters and there is no discussion on that front. People (including me) shy away from DCT/DSG due to reliability issues/worries. How is this any different?

Last edited by Jaggu : 29th August 2022 at 19:52. Reason: Trimming the quote, please avoid Quoting entire large post for replies. Thanks.
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Old 29th August 2022, 16:11   #85
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Default Re: Toyota Urban Cruiser Hyryder Review

An excellent review as always, Rated full shining 5 stars. Thanks for an exhaustive view.

Why would i buy the Hyrider:

1. Reliability and fuss free ownership
2. Mileage: quite decent mileage and no range anxiety

Why would i not buy the Hyrider:

1. Sorry performance figures ( i would put money on high torque diesel instead)
2. Loss of practicality: lower boot, lower features, neutral design language
3. Subpar fit and finesse (exterior and interior both) as compared to competition. Car is still a priced possession in India so it matters.
4. Cost: Still a surprise but guessing a premium pricing considering the hybrid technology

All in all i feel this car will sell in moderate numbers (Similar to MSIL S-cross numbers) in urban areas.
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Old 29th August 2022, 16:33   #86
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Default Re: Toyota Urban Cruiser Hyryder Review

I am someone who likes the Espresso, I like small fuel efficient cars no doubt.

However just wondering how did Mayota come to the conclusion that the most important aspect of a compact SUV is fuel efficiency.
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Old 29th August 2022, 16:55   #87
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Default Re: Toyota Urban Cruiser Hyryder Review

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Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
There are 2 separate coolant circuits. The one with the green cap is the coolant circuit for the hybrid battery and power control unit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
The vent next to the rear seat is to cool the hybrid battery pack by taking in the cold air from the cabin and blowing it around the battery enclosure:
I believe the separate coolant circuit is just for the power electronics, electric motor and generator only. The hybrid battery pack at the rear of the car may only be relying on the cooling vent on the rear seat alone. If there is a dedicated cooling circuit for the hybrid battery, what is the need for this small vent? What happens if rain water enters this duct (door opened for longer duration in torrential rain), or gets obstructed by any other means (a kid thrusts candy wrapper into the vent)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
Hybrid battery is rated at 0.76 kWh - almost the same as that on the Honda City Hybrid:
Since the battery capacity is just a fraction of EVs (20 kWh and upwards), this might not need the elaborate cooling circuit seen on EVs - Just my guess. Otherwise it looks like overkill and simply raise overall cost of product.


Quote:
Originally Posted by OpenRoads View Post
1. Lithium-ion battery pack is powering the Hyryder.
“Lithium-ion batteries have a higher energy capacity-to-weight ratio compared to NiMH, but operate at higher temperatures, and are subject to thermal instability if not properly manufactured and controlled, raising safety concerns.”
a. How is it going to impact the maintenance cost in the long run? What is covered within the 8-year warranty purview?
b. Since the battery is constantly charging and discharging, how does it mitigate a limited charge cycle of a Li-Ion battery or what is the limit?
c. There are vents inside the cabin to keep the battery cool. What happens when the car is stands still in an open parking during Indian summer for days or weeks? What is the impact?
Usually the hybrid battery is divided into many cells and there is usually a battery management module which keeps track of charging individual cells and discharging the ones that were charged earlier. The optimal algorithms are chosen here for cell longevity based on usage patterns and many other variables. Also, instead of changing the entire battery, it was always possible to change individual cells in earlier Toyota hybrids (Although those were NiMh cells and the cell replacement was a labor intensive process, dismantling rear seat back and all). However the Li-ion cells should have a much larger life than the Ni-Mh ones used in Toyota hybrids earlier. The heat generated also should be limited and controlled, as there is no fast charging or higher voltages present, unlike EV charging. Also the battery management module should intervene if such a scenario happens.

Note: The above info is based on various documentation and experiences around the web, on repair and maintenance of earlier Toyota hybrid systems.

However Toyota should advertise the costs involved in replacing the battery, how many charge cycles/KMs before it would require replacing etc, to ease off customer doubts. This is critical in calculating long term maintenance costs involved. After all, people tend to keep using cars with high economy/efficiency longer than less efficient ones.
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Old 29th August 2022, 17:10   #88
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Default Re: Toyota Urban Cruiser Hyryder Review

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Originally Posted by OpenRoads View Post
I did a similar exercise. As per my calculation based on KMs you drive it will vary the figure. However an approximate saving would be around 2-3 lakhs.
I did the break-even calculation for yearly running of 10K, 15K and 20K. For me personally, 15K is the use case scenario. For lower running, break-even period increases significantly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OpenRoads View Post
Other than Creta and Astor no one else is offering a panoramic sunroof (petrol) if that is something you aspire and compare.
Apart from sun-roof, important comparable features (between Creta SXO IVT & Hyryder SH V) are ventilated seats, CVT automatic transmission, airbags, alloy wheels, disc breaks, infotainment system, close power figures etc. Creta additionally gets elect parking brake with auto hold, sub-woofer etc. Hyryder additionally gets 360 camera, HUD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OpenRoads View Post
The only thing I am skeptical about is the maintenance cost of the overall complex hybrid system which totally uncharted waters and there is no discussion on that front. People (including me) shy away from DCT/DSG due to reliability issues/worries. How is this any different?
Lower moving parts in strong hybrid Hyryder. Further, engine comes on for 60% of time only compared to equivalent ICE. Additionally, eCVT is just ratio adjustment between MG1 & MG2 - so no transmission system at all. I am not sure , but I was told regen braking helps to prolong brake pad life as well.

Last edited by baarish84 : 29th August 2022 at 17:21.
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Old 29th August 2022, 17:45   #89
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Default Re: Toyota Urban Cruiser Hyryder Review

In case of the City Hybrid, the spare wheel is inside the boot. So, if additional boot space is needed(say if it is a city day-time run), the spare wheel can be removed and more luggage can be accommodated in that slot. Our team-bhp review mentions this as a point.

However, in the case of Hyryder Hybrid, this work-around doesn't seem to be possible since the spare wheel is underneath. We have seen many folks drop the XUV300 due to its boot space and it is surprising to see the car from the next segment having almost the same bootspace.
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Old 29th August 2022, 19:03   #90
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Default Re: Toyota Urban Cruiser Hyryder Review

Great review!!!

The "drive" part was "almost" expected as this is the result of marriage between Maruti and "Indian" Toyota (which tend to release the bare minimum specs in Indian market). Now, it depends on the price. If it is a steal, even people who like driving may be tempted, else, else, it will cater to the rest of the audience who value Toyota badge over many other things.
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