[fiat_tarun]

Like many have already said, this looks like a jugaad job till the Born EV platform is ready. They have been talking about the XUV300 EV for years now and even showcased the car at the 2020 Auto Expo and finally it sees the light of day but still in half cooked form !

I really hope the final product is finished well, but I honestly don't see too much effort going in here with all their focus on the Born EV's that will come by 2024/25.

[1.2TSI7DSG]

Originally Posted by ramnaresh_2000

This looks like a half baked product from M&M, early adaptors be ready to play the role of QA testers. What's the hurry M&M? I don't understand. Prices in Jan'23 and deliveries in Dec'23? No update on price protection if booked in Jan'23.

So many missing features

• No regenerative adjustment
• No fog lamps
• No wireless charger
• Dashboard design from 90's
• 7"inch HU looks outdated
• Not even a lamp in glove box
• No auto dimming IRVM
• No rear AC vents
• No auto AC
• No dual zone climate control

A suggestion to Mahindra, please remove the useless sunroof and add above features in the final product please.

These are all electricity consuming features are not really required on a city car

[sagsaw]

Originally Posted by fiat_tarun

Like many have already said, this looks like a jugaad job till the Born EV platform is ready.

Why is this a Jugaad job?

Then Nexon Tigor and Tiago all become JUGAADS.

Even the MG ZS also becomes a jugaad.

ICE vehicle engineered to an EV is a proper Engineering job in my opinion and not a jugaad.

[sachinshastry]

Extremely disappointed with Mahindra's approach with their first long range EV. I had seen Mahindra showcase their E-XUV300 (as it was called then) in the Auto Expo 2022 at Delhi. From then on I was eagerly waiting for its launch, knowing that XUV300 has a much better chassis compared to Nexon and also comes with 6 airbags, which I feel is a miss in Nexon EV. Dont mistake me, Nexon is a very good chassis in itself. But in comparative terms, I feel XUV300 to be better owing to its higher width and longer wheelbase, minus the boot space. I was very excited when Mahindra revealed that they have increased the total length of the car to 4.2m, which would finally solve XUV300's major issue, the boot. I was considering this as a replacement for our Ford global Fiesta 2012 DCT, to be used by my father. All hopes fell, when Mahindra launched a half baked car without even revealing the prices . Upon that there has been complete radio silence since the launch from Mahindra. Interior is not a problem for me. Even though its old in terms of styling, its not a deal breaker considering the other good things of the car. The other things which I dint like were that Mahindra has used an older generation NMC cells instead of the proven LFP chemistry. Also adjustable regen is a major miss. Considering that the tax exemptions for EVs under 80EEB is going to end in March 2023, we wanted to have our purchase before that. Seeing the existing load on Mahindra's plants, I doubt Mahindra would start its delivery of XUV400 within that. Also considering its a 1st generation long range EV product from Mahindra, I was skeptical to have it as my father's primary car. Upon that the half baked demo cars at launch did not do any good. Thus have booked Nexon EV Max and awaiting delivery.

Being an EV enthusiast from a long time, I had high hopes when Mahindra purchased Reva. Was hoping they will lead the EV way in India with much better products. On the contrary, they seem to have gone the other way. They kept delaying their launches and the after sales service of their E20 series has been below average. Tata came completely out of syllabus in this manner and kudos to them. . Hope Mahindra correct their mistake with the Born Electric range of EVs.

[sagsaw]

Originally Posted by sachinshastry

All hopes fell, when Mahindra launched a half baked car without even revealing the prices . Upon that there has been complete radio silence

Frankly, why is XUV400 a half baked car?

At the media drives, I think Mahindra made their roadmap fully clear regarding the launch of the XUV400.

And not a single reviewer called it a half baked product.

Why is NMC called an old technology as compared to LFP?

Nickel-manganese-cobalt (NMC) batteries are the most common form found in EVs today, ranging from the Nissan Leaf to Mercedes-Benz EQS.


Nissan is pioneer in EVs in the world and Mercedes in Indian minds is the supremo of auto engineering.


Adjustable regen modes might not be there but without the test drive how will you know the tuning of the regen?

Who knows Mahindra may offer it via a software update later just as TATA has done with the TIGOR which is getting new features via software update.

I would wait for the vehicle to come to showrooms and take a test drive.

Lets give an Indian manufacturer manufacturing and engineering and designing in India a chance just as we are rejoicing an Indian origin person becoming PM of a country.

[SanSabh]

About the lack of adjustable regen.

It seems to me that the most intuitive reflex action for braking is stomping on the brake pedal, for most drivers. A person with a care free attitude would prefer everything to be intuitive

And it can be, if upon pressing the brake pedal, the regen gets progressively more powerful until, at the point where the car has to stop, the actual brake pads make physical contact along with the maximum regen setting

It seems that this just could be the case

[wocanak]

Originally Posted by sagsaw

Why is NMC called an old technology as compared to LFP?

Nickel-manganese-cobalt (NMC) batteries are the most common form found in EVs today, ranging from the Nissan Leaf to Mercedes-Benz EQS.

Nissan is pioneer in EVs in the world and Mercedes in Indian minds is the supremo of auto engineering.

Few reasons, why more manufacturers are switching to LFP:

1. LFP typically has 2 to 3 times more recharge cycles for same level of battery degradation, ~1000/1500 for NMC vs ~3000 for LFP for 20% degradation. Especially helps with mid/small batteries i.e. less than 50 kwh, which will go through recharge cycles faster.
2. LFP has better high temperature tolerance, so good for tropical countries like India. Note that Nissan Leaf is typically sold in western countries with cooler climate.
3. LFP has better fire safety
4. Lesser dependence on rare/conflict materials like Cobalt
5. It's main disadvantage is lesser energy density i.e. it will weigh more and take more space as compared to NMC, but this can be taken care in the car design as shown by Tata, MG, BYD, Tesla and many more who are switching to LFP

The other reason why it feels half-baked is the very dated cabin looks and controls, XUV 300 itself feels overdue for a facelift. Now you have a new car hopefully available in 2023 with ~5 year old looks.

Originally Posted by sagsaw

Adjustable regen modes might not be there but without the test drive how will you know the tuning of the regen?

The main reason for adjustable regen is no single setting is optimal across driving conditions, you want max regen in city for single pedal bumper to bumper driving, some where in between for moderate traffic and no regen for highway driving. Maybe they can tune it with drive modes, but ideally you want independent control over regen.

Originally Posted by sagsaw

Who knows Mahindra may offer it via a software update later just as TATA has done with the TIGOR which is getting new features via software update.

The software update route worked out for Nexon, because it had MID controls on the steering. Hope the XUV400 has similar controls for easy access. I think Tata has not yet rolled it out for Tigor and it is going to be difficult to make it easily accessible without steering controls.

Originally Posted by sagsaw

I would wait for the vehicle to come to showrooms and take a test drive.

Lets give an Indian manufacturer manufacturing and engineering and designing in India a chance just as we are rejoicing an Indian origin person becoming PM of a country.

Believe me, I am eagerly awaiting competition in the ~20 Lakhs or below EVs. I am fed up of Tata's EV monopoly, having to beg for test drives, dodgy bookings and shudder to think of after sale service. Even if we stretch the budget to ~25 Lakhs, there is only Kona (again not LFP and dated) and MG ZS Exclusive (Chinese concern). So virtually nothing in the reasonably affordable price range other than Tata.

But I not very hopeful about XUV400, it feels rushed out. Complete silence on pricing, test drive availability and delivery dates. I may still wait for the XUV400 test drive and pricing before buying, but feeling less hopeful and there is a limit to how long you can wait.

[sagsaw]

If you hear what Anand Kulkarni of Tata Motors said, its clear Tigor is getting updates in a phased manner very soon. He said two phases of updates.

India is still not even Gen 1 with respect to EVs, so about Regen modes and it's optimal usability all will take more uears and EV miles to have that data and then optimize with respect to that data of practical cuatomer usage patterns. So its pure theoretical whether auto regen is optimal or modes are optimal etc. Thats my opinion though.

Using NMC doesnt mean old technology or unsafe one. Time will tell. MnM chose one option Tata chose the other.

Cooling systems play a big role and at 400 reveal, MnM explained in detail how they have safety first approach with respect to the battery pack.

BMS and Charging modules too play a big part in battery overall health.

Nexon too is an old product. Hasnt changed much excepts some touches here and there. As I said you like a cabin or you dont but that doesnt imply half baked.

ICE to Electric doesnt naturally imply that cabin has to change.

MnM has their own pattern of product launches and 400 is no different. So lets wait for January 2023 price announcement.


Overall lets celebrate an Indian manufacturer (anyone and everyone including OLA) making in India and save the ifs n buts after the product goes on sale.

[sachinshastry]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyA-xmcJ2kI&t=686s

Originally Posted by sagsaw

Frankly, why is XUV400 a half baked car?

And not a single reviewer called it a half baked product.

The reason I said it was half-baked was that the MID was still in the testing phase. It was not yet showing the EV specific graphics. Also the ESP was not yet available at the time of the media drives as it was still under development. If you see the drive review from ICN studio on youtube pasted above, he clearly mentions both the points at 1:10 minutes and 18:40 minutes.

When a company unveils a product and gives it to the media for review, it means that they are ready with their product and they want to demonstrate it to the public. But when they give a product that is still under development, it clearly shows that they are desperate to make an appearance which may be due to many reasons. It maybe that they want to showcase their investors that they have something to compete with Tata. Or it may also be that the immense success of the Nexon has caused panic that they have nothing completely ready as of yet to compete in that space and to buy some time till January, they might have gone ahead with the unveil. This will keep many prospective EV buyers in the 15 to 20L category on hold, in the hopes of this new product. So any product which is not yet completely ready can obviously be called a 'half baked', product atleast for now. Also no reviewer can say this on the face. Thats why you see no one raising this point directly. Mahindra has been showcasing the e-XUV300 and the e-KUV100 from so long. I still dont get why are they taking so much time to bring their product to the market. I still believe that if not for Tata and MG, Mahindra would still have taken their own sweet time. Also there is an E20 plus in my family and the below average service response they get with it creates doubts that Mahindra is giving second preference to EV, as they are enjoying huge success with their ICE range of vehicles. This leads me to be skeptical with the adoption of their 1st gen vehicle. I really wish Mahindra corrects this. Contrary to this, the top management at Tata has actually been more proactive with their EV portfolio compared to their ICE counterpart.

Originally Posted by sagsaw

Why is NMC called an old technology as compared to LFP?

I never said that NMC is an older technology. I said that the cells that Mahindra is sourcing from LG is of an older generation. Below is an extract from the Autocar India review of the XUV400 which mentions that.

The NMC battery pack, sourced from LG Chem in Korea, is an older-generation chemistry (5.3.2) and Mahindra engineers have had to balance power and range

Originally Posted by sagsaw

Nickel-manganese-cobalt (NMC) batteries are the most common form found in EVs today, ranging from the Nissan Leaf to Mercedes-Benz EQS.

No, its not. China is the largest EV market in the world as of now accounting to about 57% of the global EV sales. The source mentioned below:

https://www.zdnet.com/article/chinas...ing-ev-market/

https://inverted.in/blog/lithium-pri...the-nmc-market

China is betting heavily on the LFP chemistry and thus majority of the cars there are using the same. Even American companies are switching to LFP chemistry owing to their superior life and the ability to withstand harsher conditions. For example, Tesla switched to LFP chemistry for Model 3 and Y. They are also thinking of getting the blade batteries from BYD in the future.

https://electrek.co/2022/08/11/tesla...actory-berlin/

https://www.engineering.com/story/wh...-lfp-batteries

Please refer the above article. It clearly the explains the advantages and disadvantages of both NMC and LFP batteries. Trying to summarise them below:

Advantages of NMC:
1) Higher energy density (around 260Wh/kg), which will lead to reduction in weight when compared the LFP counterparts.
2) Has better charging efficiency under freezing temperatures

Disadvantages of NMC
1) Shorter battery life (around 1000 cycles before reaching 80% to 90% of the charge holding capacity)
2) Expensive
3) Presence of metals such as Nickel, Manganese and Cobalt, which lead to sustainability issues.
4) Poor resistance to extreme temperatures.
5) Has lower ignition point and thus has higher chances of thermal runaway under extreme temperatures

Advantages of LFP:
1) Cheaper compared to NMC
2) Absence of costlier metals
3) Better resistance to higher temperature
4) Higher lifespan (around 3000 cycles before reducing to 90% of capacity)
5) Better suited to handle high-performance driving and quick charging.

Disadvantages of LFP:
1) Poor charging efficiency under sub-zero temperatures.
2) Lower energy density (160 Wh/km to 200 Wh/km)

If we take the examples you have mentioned above, there are two factors which justify the NMC adoption:
1) Mercedes and Tesla (Model S and X) are high end performance oriented EVs. For them the battery weight plays a major role. Thus in order to have significant reduction in weight they have gone with NMC. Also the substantial increase in the battery price is not much of a concern since they are already in the higher price bracket.

2) They are mostly being sold in western countries where the climate is colder and rarely reaches the high temperature band where NMCs tend to undergo thermal runaway or deteriorate faster. But they will still end up having lesser life compared to their LFP counterparts.

Clearly, LFP is the best fit for low end EV products, that too for a tropical country like India, where temperatures in the summer reach north of 40 degrees Celsius.

Adjustable regen modes might not be there but without the test drive how will you know the tuning of the regen?

Who knows Mahindra may offer it via a software update later just as TATA has done with the TIGOR which is getting new features via software update.

Trust me, adjustable regen is very useful, irrespective of the regen tuning. In my Ather, the regen is set to certain limit and is not very strong. We can just slow down the scooter using regen but cannot bring it to a complete halt through the same as the it cuts off below 20 km/h. Thus I use regen to slow down the scooter till 20 km/h and then use the friction brakes to bring it to a complete halt. Recently, I test drove the Tigor EV and the Nexon EV. The Tigor EV does not have adjustable regen setting and the regen force at best was adequate to slow down the vehicle. But Nexon completely surprised me. I was testing the sports mode and there was a bad patch of road in some distance ahead of me. Instead of using the brakes to slow down, I tried the level 3 regen, and to my surprise, the deceleration was such that it could easily bring the vehicle to a stand still without the help of friction brakes. In the entire test drive of the Nexon EV, I rarely used the traditional brakes. Also the feature to turn off regen is very helpful on highway trips. For example, I can turn off regen in the highway during cruising. When I want to slow down, say there is a toll booth ahead, I can just set it to level 2 or 3 and recover much of the energy while slowing down, rather than using the friction brakes. Thus its a very desirable feature every EV must have. The adjustable regen setting gives the freedom to adjust the braking force as per your driving style.

As you said, they can give it as an update, provided there is a hardware support. This is difficult with Tigor EV as there are no toggle buttons which can be used to achieve it, contrary to Nexon. Eager to see what approach Tata takes to implement it on the Tigor. But when you know that many are appreciating the regen level adjustment feature on the Nexon, why not take inputs from that and provide it upfront during launch, rather than providing it as an update? Mahindra had earlier provided a button to adjust the EPS feedback on the ICE XUV300. Why not provide a similar feature for regen? I wish Mahindra implements this somehow before the launch in January.

I would wait for the vehicle to come to showrooms and take a test drive.

Lets give an Indian manufacturer manufacturing and engineering and designing in India a chance just as we are rejoicing an Indian origin person becoming PM of a country.

Definitely we can wait for the showroom drives for the technical points discussed above. What I am disappointed is with the hurried unveil of the vehicle while its still under development and also no mention of the price. Even Toyota did the same with the Hyryder when it came to not announcing the price during the launch.

I am all in for supporting Indian brands. In fact, I had very high hopes on the XUV400 and was very eagerly waiting for its launch. Probably that's what caused the disappointment. I am extremely happy that Indian companies are leading the EV market in the country in both two wheeler and the four wheeler segment. That's the same reason I have decided to go with only the Indian brands for my purchase of the EV (just my personal opinion). I was one of the early adopters of the Ather and I had booked mine in 2019, that too when there was no Ather service centre in my city (still its not there) and the nearest service centre was 280 km away in Bengaluru. Many questioned my decision of going with the Ather when it was still an unproven product, but I went ahead with my decision and I am enjoying every bit of it . This was mainly because of the confidence they gave me with their product during the launch. Fun fact, Ather has NMC battery. But at that time, I knew nothing about batter chemistry and there was no other option in the market for a well built electric scooter. Till now, in my 3 years and 4 months of ownership, I have clocked about 11k plus km and have utilized 194 cycles out of the 1000. Since I have lower usage and a lot of battery cycles left, the battery chemistry is not bothering me much. But same cannot be said about cars which have higher usage and frequent fast charging cycles. Even today, if I am in the market for a bike , I will blindly put my money on the Ultraviolette F77 for the same reason of the confidence they provide. They are launching their product only after their manufacturing line is completely ready. On the contrary, Simple One did not help much with this aspect for me. I wholeheartedly wish that Mahindra succeeds with both the XUV400 and their future BE vehicles, because at the end of the day, what I would desire is a healthy competition between the Indian brands, which will ensure that they remain competitive in the budding EV market and fight the Chinese onslaught.

[sagsaw]

Dont want this to become a counter argument debate, so summing up,

Why should we not trust our own engineers at MnM if they have put their faith in NMC?

Why adopt herd mentality always? Why follow China and USA?

Who knows MnM may have achieved a fine balance of cost range endurance reliability with the NMC batteries.

Lets wait.

I think as consumers we can only comment on products for sale or concepts previewed.

Why MnM is taking a particular decision, why only previewing products etc etc is all business and market dependent.

As consumers we can demand what we want but not really have any say on the process how.

And in the end ultimately consumer is king, we like it we take it else reject it.

I feel its time we wait for Indian engineers to create miracles for Indian companies and we must back it.

All that NMC vs LFP is fine but innovation is continual process and who know what MnM has in store.

Forget media drives with some features disabled, we have had many threads on Tata EV issues post sales. ICE world, we have so many recalls or failures.

That isn't half baked.

I am not patronizing MnM only but the Auto Manufacturing as a whole.

Lets be positive is my conclusion.

Lets wait and watch and hope for the best.

[sachinshastry]

Originally Posted by sachinshastry

2) Lower energy density (160 Wh/km to 200 Wh/km).

The energy density here should have been Wh/kg. It has been incorrectly typed as Wh/km. Sorry for the error.

Originally Posted by sagsaw

Why adopt herd mentality always? Why follow China and USA?

Its not a question of herd mentality. India has very less research being undertaken in the field of lithium ion batteries. All the major work is being done in the west. In the field of LFP, China is leading the way. So when we dont have enough research being done in a particular field, we have to rely on the existing results available. Also, the batteries have been put to test in these countries as they have significant amount of EVs already on the road.

Originally Posted by sagsaw

Who knows MnM may have achieved a fine balance of cost range endurance reliability with the NMC batteries.

Why should we not trust our own engineers at MnM if they have put their faith in NMC?

https://auto.economictimes.indiatime...iness/94929108

Mahindra themselves have gone with LFP batteries for the Born Electric series and he explains the reason for the decision in the above post. I still stand confused with their decision of using NMC for XUV400. But anyways, as you have said, lets trust their engineers and wait.

[sagsaw]

Originally Posted by sachinshastry

Mahindra themselves have gone with LFP batteries for the Born Electric series and he explains the reason for the decision in the above post. I still stand confused with their decision of using NMC for XUV400. But anyways, as you have said, lets trust their engineers and wait.

As Mahindra have decided to use VW group Platform and components for its BE range of vehicles, its obvious and simple decision to go with the batteries used by VW group.

[XRoader_001]

Type Approval Certificate of Mahindra Xuv400 :

• Three Variants
• NMC cells
•150 km/h top speed
• Motor by Valeo

[ohaak]

Does Tata Ziptron use Li-NMC or Li-FePO4? The BYD buses and the BYD blade battery system and the Tesla 3 use the Iron Phosphate chemistry for reliability and durability.

https://history-computer.com/nickel-...d-differences/

[Venkatesh]

All-New Mahindra XUV400 Exclusive edition

One-of-one XUV400 made in collaboration with fashion designer Rimzim Dadu. Will be put up for auction.

https://youtu.be/OwSmx9lyGiw

Registration for auction and one-of-one XUV400 to be revealed today evening.

Link