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Old 3rd January 2023, 09:16   #451
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Re: Toyota Innova Hycross Review

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Originally Posted by Cresterk View Post
Attachment 2398963
There are the power numbers and technical specs for both petrol and hybrid variants. And yeah, I don't think the hybrid version will have any problems on hills or overtakes due to instant availability of max torque from 0 rpm.
Looked up on hybrids, having said that people have been driving hybrids for some time know so they probably have sufficient know how,and here's what i saw of note=

1.Hybrid is primarily meant for better fuel efficiency.Period.No power advantages.And one needs to be driving a fair bit to justify the extra cost.
2.To quote from Toyota =The vehicle can be driven using its electric power alone, as well as with the engine and electric motor working together= but it doesnt mention for how long, saw a video which said battery only mode works for 1-2Km only, so effectively we are limited to the power/torque provided by the gas engine.Electric motor may provide additional power for short bursts,very short when one is going uphill.
3.There are some interesting videos i will include here mostly from Toyota itself on hybrid driving tips, which indicate that when climbing uphill one should not be accelerating to maintain speed,instead should let the speed drop.Another notes that you need to relearn how to drive-hybrids.
4.Life of batteries deteriorates at higher temperatures and at 33c temperature will last 5 years only, and suggests keeping the car cool and park inside, in the shade etc, you get the drift.

links:
1.https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rc...jTz47NWH2bW2gV
2.https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rc...nRcUImv9Xf63LO
3.https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rc...PWcr7vNDlQ_SZp
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Old 3rd January 2023, 09:19   #452
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Re: Toyota Innova Hycross Review

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Originally Posted by CA Dhruv View Post
Even i20 diesel produces 240 NM @ 1500 rpm, while turbo petrol produces 172 NM @ 1500 rpm while toyota's new bread & butter is said to produce 209 NM @ 4500rpm. I guess its mostly going to be in redline in hills , oh wait toyota doesnt provide a tachometer .Also being provided in only Automatic versions is going to cause problems to lots of first timers in hilly areas.

I believe 9/10 Hycross owners in North India would take it to either Himachal or Uttrakhand for the first holiday they get post getting the vehicle.
One will need to discard legacy impressions of relationship of torque and rpm when thinking of hybrids. You have omitted the additional ~ 200NM of torque available right from 0 rpm from the electric motor in the Hycross, in your post above. Providing a tachometer to assess this torque is meaningless as it would be digital i.e., zero torque to 200NM as soon as you start the car and get it moving. This is why such a large car with a relatively small engine manages it be so Swift (under 10 seconds to 100 kph) with the hybrid tech. The same tech will provide excellent assistance in the hills as the battery gets charged very fast incrementally as soon as it is incrementally discharged and is continuously active. The car never relies 100% on the IC engine for any length of time even when going uphill or going very fast. This Is also bourne from the review of the Hyryder hybrid in mountain drives that a fellow BHPian has recently posted on that thread.
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Old 3rd January 2023, 09:50   #453
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Re: Toyota Innova Hycross Review



Check this review from 13:50 onwards, describing the limitation of Hybrids on a long drive. Should be applicable for all Hybrids. Some OEMs may have their own strategy of managing the battery switching and extraction of power, but should be applicable to most of hybrids. It says they are more beneficial only for city driving. In long drives, it is as good as a non-hybrid car.

Last edited by sad:) : 3rd January 2023 at 09:52. Reason: additional info added
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Old 3rd January 2023, 10:47   #454
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Re: Toyota Innova Hycross Review

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Originally Posted by Carevidence View Post
1.Hybrid is primarily meant for better fuel efficiency.Period.No power advantages.And one needs to be driving a fair bit to justify the extra cost.
Another way to look at it is, there is no compromise on power for fuel efficiency. Infact hybrids have more power compared to their petrol only counterparts which is true even in case of Innova Hycross.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carevidence View Post
2.To quote from Toyota =The vehicle can be driven using its electric power alone, as well as with the engine and electric motor working together= but it doesnt mention for how long, saw a video which said battery only mode works for 1-2Km only, so effectively we are limited to the power/torque provided by the gas engine.Electric motor may provide additional power for short bursts,very short when one is going uphill.
The engine is assisted by the electric motor even when the electric motor is not powering the car exclusively. Besides within the city how long can you drive for before you have to brake or stop at a traffic light? And at city speeds there is plenty of electric motor assist to still keep the fuel efficiency very high.

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Originally Posted by Carevidence View Post
3.There are some interesting videos i will include here mostly from Toyota itself on hybrid driving tips, which indicate that when climbing uphill one should not be accelerating to maintain speed,instead should let the speed drop.Another notes that you need to relearn how to drive-hybrids.
Absolutely not. It drives like a normal automatic with all the complexity being handled by the car itself. "Not accelerating while going up the hill" will apply to any car if you are trying to extract the most mileage out of the car.

As for re-learning, its not re-learning, it called adapting your driving for e.g. it would make no sense in a hybrid to brake hard just before the traffic light when it is red to gradually stopping using brake regen. It does not mean you cannot brake hard, you can, but you should not.

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Originally Posted by Carevidence View Post
4.Life of batteries deteriorates at higher temperatures and at 33c temperature will last 5 years only, and suggests keeping the car cool and park inside, in the shade etc, you get the drift.
Can you point me to where it says that a Toyota Hybrid battery will last only 5 years at 33 degree C? Toyota software manages battery really well and its uses a ventilation fan to maintain temperature.


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Originally Posted by sad:) View Post
https://www.Youtube.com/watch?v=2uBZGZKA6yo

Check this review from 13:50 onwards, describing the limitation of Hybrids on a long drive. Should be applicable for all Hybrids. Some OEMs may have their own strategy of managing the battery switching and extraction of power, but should be applicable to most of hybrids. It says they are more beneficial only for city driving. In long drives, it is as good as a non-hybrid car.
A plug in hybrid is not the same as the hybrid tech being talked about here. A plug in hybrid has a relatively large battery compared to a hybrid meaning the car is lugging hundreds of kilo's of extra dead weight once the battery is depleted. If you dont keep the car plugged in while it is parked to keep the battery topped off, it is going to consume as much if not more fuel when compared to a pure petrol/diesel car.

Toyota Hybrid does not need to be charged outside of the car (hence self charging hybrid) because the battery is relatively small. The hybrid system uses the small battery for most strenuous parts of the driving cycle - starting off on electric motor, assisting the engine while accelerating and maintaining the city cruising speed once up to speed.
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Old 3rd January 2023, 11:02   #455
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Re: Toyota Innova Hycross Review

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Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
Another way to look at it is, there is no compromise on power for fuel efficiency. Infact hybrids have more power compared to their petrol only counterparts which is true even in case of Innova Hycross.
As for re-learning, its not re-learning, it called adapting your driving for e.g. it would make no sense in a hybrid to brake hard just before the traffic light when it is red to gradually stopping using brake regen. It does not mean you cannot brake hard, you can, but you should not.
Can you point me to where it says that a Toyota Hybrid battery will last only 5 years at 33 degree C? Toyota software manages battery really well and its uses a ventilation fan to maintain temperature.
It is not a Toyota specific hybrid battery issue as far as temperature is concerned but hybrid batteries in general according to the source I read.I suppose that's why it needs ventilation sourced from AC.

Whether you call it adapting or relearning-some changes in driving habits will be necessary to get optimum performance.Many habits are ingrained.
Im looking to get the Hycross primarily because it has ADAS, not because it is a hybrid and i'm trying to see really how much of a compromise it is, especially for mountain driving, which is a separate issue.
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Old 3rd January 2023, 11:14   #456
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Re: Toyota Innova Hycross Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carevidence View Post
Looked up on hybrids, having said that people have been driving hybrids for some time know so they probably have sufficient know how,and here's what i saw of note=

1.Hybrid is primarily meant for better fuel efficiency.Period.No power advantages.And one needs to be driving a fair bit to justify the extra cost.
Newer Ferraris, porsches etc are hybrid and they are all more powerful and faster than the older pure engine cars they replace. Not saying that a toyota MPV is in any way comparable to a super car but that statement is wrong.

Quote:
2.To quote from Toyota =The vehicle can be driven using its electric power alone, as well as with the engine and electric motor working together= but it doesnt mention for how long, saw a video which said battery only mode works for 1-2Km only, so effectively we are limited to the power/torque provided by the gas engine.Electric motor may provide additional power for short bursts,very short when one is going uphill.
The ECU runs the engine at whatever RPM is most efficient/optimal. E-cvt provides a part of the engine power to wheels while MG1 converts the rest into electricity and uses it to power MG2 which will assist with torque to the wheels even if battery is empty (not that the ecu will ever let it empty completely)


Quote:
4.Life of batteries deteriorates at higher temperatures and at 33c temperature will last 5 years only, and suggests keeping the car cool and park inside, in the shade etc, you get the drift.
They used Ni-Mh instead of lithium batteries specifically with our higher temps in mind. They will last the lifespan of the car and if they fail in 5 years, you can get it replaced under warranty and ta-da, you have a brand new battery for free


The vids you linked are based on old tech. Hybrids have been around for a long time abroad and have gone through significant changes. The engine and transmission in the Hycross is brand new, having first appeared in lexus UX in 2018. Here's a Corolla Cross Hybrid, which is what the innova hycross is based on, being driven uphill by a racing driver uphill who goes absolutely ham on it. I doubt any of us will be half as wild with the car as this guy is :
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Old 3rd January 2023, 11:29   #457
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Re: Toyota Innova Hycross Review

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Originally Posted by Cresterk View Post
Newer Ferraris, porsches etc are hybrid and they are all more powerful and faster than the older pure engine cars they replace. Not saying that a toyota MPV is in any way comparable to a super car but that statement is wrong.

https://www.Youtube.com/watch?v=meX9ZTWzIag
Thanks for the inputs ! Takes care of some doubts! As far as the battery life is concerned we will cross the bridge when we come to it.
Got a flight to catch soon so will log in again over the next few days .
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Old 3rd January 2023, 12:11   #458
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Re: Toyota Innova Hycross Review

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Originally Posted by Carevidence View Post
It is not a Toyota specific hybrid battery issue as far as temperature is concerned but hybrid batteries in general according to the source I read.I suppose that's why it needs ventilation sourced from AC.
I am not sure why would you even mention it in this thread if it is not a Toyota specific issue? As for extreme temperatures, that would be concern for any battery - from the pencil cell in your remote to the battery in a Tesla.
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Old 3rd January 2023, 12:21   #459
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Re: Toyota Innova Hycross Review

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Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
If you dont keep the car plugged in while it is parked to keep the battery topped off, it is going to consume as much if not more fuel when compared to a pure petrol/diesel car.
Doesn't plug in hybrid get charged while driving as well?
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Old 3rd January 2023, 12:34   #460
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Re: Toyota Innova Hycross Review

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Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
I am not sure why would you even mention it in this thread if it is not a Toyota specific issue? As for extreme temperatures, that would be concern for any battery - from the pencil cell in your remote to the battery in a Tesla.
Noted your comments but I don't believe my notes are irrelevant to the point being discussed. I'm thankful for the data provided though.

Last edited by Chetan_Rao : 4th January 2023 at 02:26. Reason: Typo
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Old 3rd January 2023, 12:38   #461
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Re: Toyota Innova Hycross Review

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Originally Posted by Guna View Post
Doesn't plug in hybrid get charged while driving as well?
Regeneration will always be there as you know even in pure EVs.

Again different manufacturers will have different logic of charging the batteries. With Toyota they keep charging even when engine is driving the car when conditions are right. I would bet Toyota's algorithms would be better than other makers given the experience they have. Toyota and Honda will tune to extract more efficiency than power.

I think when we think of Hybrids we think about regeneration/charging only while braking in city driving and hence assume highway numbers will be low. That is not the case.

Last edited by PreludeSH : 3rd January 2023 at 12:49.
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Old 3rd January 2023, 12:47   #462
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Re: Toyota Innova Hycross Review

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Originally Posted by Guna View Post
Doesn't plug in hybrid get charged while driving as well?
I reckon it would but given the sheer battery size (20 odd kwh) I wonder how much or how fast can it actually be charged. And while that is happening, the engine is not only lugging the extra weight of the battery, it is also charging the battery.

Plug-In hybrids in my view are a terrible idea.
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Old 3rd January 2023, 12:49   #463
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Re: Toyota Innova Hycross Review

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Originally Posted by Guna View Post
Doesn't plug in hybrid get charged while driving as well?
Nope! Plug in Hybrid is just like the normal BEV (With a smaller battery) except that it does have an ICE engine and a fuel tank as well. It needs to be charged just like a BEV by plugging in (Hence the name) and while driving, it does get slightly charged by the help of breaking regen which isn't very significant but does help in giving you some extra Kms.

The best thing about it is that even when you are completely out of battery power you can still go on with the ICE engine running. But as someone above mentioned that the car would then haul additional dead weight of the battery which would significantly affect mileage and cancel out the benefits by a significant margin.
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Old 3rd January 2023, 14:25   #464
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Re: Toyota Innova Hycross Review

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Originally Posted by PreludeSH View Post
Regeneration will always be there as you know even in pure EVs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
And while that is happening, the engine is not only lugging the extra weight of the battery, it is also charging the battery.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Car View Post
Nope! Plug in Hybrid is just like the normal BEV (With a smaller battery) except that it does have an ICE engine and a fuel tank as well.
If that is the case, wonder what stops them from making a hybrid which functions like the Innova Hycross Hybrid, yet having charging ability while being parked. It is like best of both the worlds (may get more complex and expensive).
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Old 3rd January 2023, 14:26   #465
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Re: Toyota Innova Hycross Review

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Originally Posted by Guna View Post
Doesn't plug in hybrid get charged while driving as well?
Nope.

Plug-in hybrids as the name signifies, need to be "plugged in" to an external wall socket for the battery to be charged.
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