[navpreet318]

Is Allan our tbhp member Extreme power.

The Thar adventure is a very very good looking vehicle.Lets see what the other modifiers bring out.I hope we get some great new options of doing up the vehicle.Nothing is better than having a look at your beautiful Jeep on top of a mountain sipping tea.Man i am excited about owning one now!
I bought a bullet with the seperate gearbox for its legacy.Now the jeep.Seems like i'm going to have a dream garage.


bblost: Forget the complaining and come over and give me a hand while i file those rough edges. :P

[Jaggu]

Originally Posted by navpreet318

Why is the hue and cry over the Thar being 7.3 lakhs?

Its ex showroom cost is pretty less.5.99 lakhs in delhi.6.28 in mumbai

ehm what is the onroad price in Mumbai? Only delhi and other union territories have different tax structure, so make use of it till it lasts.

Originally Posted by navpreet318

Why are you zeroing it to bangalore? Its not made solely made for bangalore.Too bad your state has this policy of making cars super expensive but just like company policy isn't your headache, the road tax isn't the company's headache either.

Lol valid point but read my above comments first.

Originally Posted by navpreet318

Why is it being said that the interiors are not worth a 7.5 lakh car etc.Its a 6 lakh vehicle.Also when you compare it to the safari's interior at 12 lakhs, its still better.

Cannot be even compared to a 5.9 lakh OTR car is my point.

Originally Posted by navpreet318

I have a tata safari worth 12 lakhs.Its interiors are more shoddy that my santro for gods sake and you're comparing the thar to the slightly lesser costing hatchbacks.

Did you see a safari in my garage anytime? or me recommending that vehicle anywhere in TBHP or otherwise?

Originally Posted by navpreet318

Are those hatchbacks giving you the go anywhere capability?are they giving you 4X4?

Have a CJ3B for 2.5 lakhs which will run circles around Thar, Safari and the Nano at the same time

Originally Posted by navpreet318

Forget hardcore offroading, can you do that going around the mud like tejas has in any of the so called comparable sedans.

For a matter of fact i have, check my swift long term report or kannur route thread for pictorial evidence.

Originally Posted by navpreet318

Coming to the gypsy.Its a great offroader and every child's dream to own one with FAT tires.Mine too.But then there are shortcomings in every car.Like in the gypsy its the petrol engine and the bouncy ride and the light body shell.So why can't we get a deisel in a gypsy at the same price of why can't it be heavier.See there are shortcomings in every vehicle.Some which you can live with and some with others including me can live with.

I have all the rights to criticize a product like you just did ^^^. But i can accept that fact and move on, can you? Am not trying to convince anybody from anything. As someone said its a democratic country where everyone is entitled to their opinion. Take it or leave it or join the debate.

Originally Posted by navpreet318

Frankly not every one can live with a hardcore offroading vehicle which has been built in a workshop.I don't trust the build quality.Thats my belief and no one can change that.Similarly no one can change your dislike for the interior.It is shoddy no doubet.But i can live with it.

I agree even i feel much more comfortable with a better built gypsy or a shoddy Thar if i am to do a Leh trip now.

Originally Posted by navpreet318

Now can we stop beating the dead horse and move ahead?

Yes its been done for and this topic is finally over.Mahindra has not given good interiors and thats that! you can't do anything about it.I can't do anything about it.So just forget it and enjoy your gypsy or if you're buying it then the thar.Simple.Why just go on and on and on about it.

Well if someone tries again and again that its ok and has to be overlooked? Sorry cant do. Stop justifying the build and the price, all can move on.

Originally Posted by navpreet318

You all have better options with the market bustling with better offroad options like the mm540 done from scratch with all the ABDCEFGH options loaded.Go get them.Why are you guys trying to put the nail in the heads of the potential customers that the interiors are not good not good not good.Yes i got the point man! Now lets move on!

Nope we also would love to buy a good allrounder at a reasonable price or atleast worth the money we spent.

The readers and the serious buyers are smart enough. They will not blindly put off a Thar purchase just because few of us in TBHP or few other magazines said bad about it. For that matter anybody in India would definitely evaluate, test drive and then count the money. No need to get upset with few time-pass commentators like me.

EDIT

Originally Posted by DKG

Its not a given that the Thar was inevitably going to be released in India. Chances are that if not pursued by a few people both within and outside Mahindra the car's local launch may not have happened for a couple of years to come !

YUP!

Originally Posted by DKG

Now the questions that need to be asked are:

How many numbers will it do across the country monthly
What aspects of the car are causing it to sell?
What applications is the car finding itself in?
Is its success being curtailed because of a major flaw?
What tweaks if any need to be carried it out to enhance its sales success?

All this will throw light on how it is received by the target audience
======
Mahindra need to process all the info coming in about the Thar in terms of the feedback and sales figures to then decide their next course of action.

Isnt this supposed to be taken care in the infamous market feedback M&M has taken, which was mentioned even in the launch speeches?? Little late in the day now sir, very honestly.

Originally Posted by DKG

People usually have more specific needs than the importance of a tailor made smart dashboard or finish.

Sir you are again reading between the lines, all of us who criticized mentioned that dash board is the least of our bothers. Give us basic stuff but decent finish, but the CMVR will not allow that. I personally feel ashamed to be saying that this is made by one of the biggest INDIAN manufacturer in this era! I have said the same about others and i will not change my view point.

Its high time we Indians moved away from the mediocre attitude.

When Toyota came out with Etios what was the hue and cry? why coz its a jap car maker?? Same logic applies, in this chalta hein market everybody will give chalta hein products. Unless we as consumers wake up and demand. Sorry there is no free meals in my dictionary.

Originally Posted by DKG

As I see it, and chances are it will happen, the Thar will find favour with the younger crowd. And then its more about 2wd and alloys and trendy colours and interiors. Its about flawless finishes as it becomes a lifestyle statement.

This makes sense but only if finish is atleast a santro standard and price logical.

Originally Posted by DKG

The Thar just might be the offroader that will trigger a whole new market for offroad machines.

Even i sure hope so, i would be more happy if Thar V2 takes care of the current shortfalls also. Is that too much to dream

Originally Posted by bblost

Would Mahindra have dared to release the Thar with such crappy and potentially dangerous interiors in the US.

Is it ok if we Indians cut our fingers.

Do we not bleed when our fingers get cut.

Exactly what i meant by Toyota story.

[Tejas@perioimpl]

Yes, Allan is xtreme power.

Thar costs 7.01 lacs in Mumbai on road. Plus 48,000 dealer AC option.

[bblost]

@navpreet318: I am not complaining.

The Thar is nice and imho has two extra wheels. Me biker guy, not exactly a big fan of cages.

But I wonder why you would readily pay 7 lakhs and then file away on plastic.
But then again one thing bikers share in common with offroaders is a slightly different perception of the world.

If I ever did buy an off roading cage, I would rather buy the Thar Mdi 4*4.

[navpreet318]

Jaggu, man that wasn't particularly pointed at you.

Ah just forget it.Go on with the beating

Thar had bad interiors.Its the worst car ever built.so on and so forth!

I don't even know what a C3JB is? What is it? really i have no clue.is it one of those old school looking jeeps? Those are the ones i dislike man.They look like the people carrier we have in uttarkashi.every villager will stop me and ask for a seat if i go out on it.LOL.

Also maybe your driving skills are super and you might even run circles around me with a swift.It doesn't matter man.I'm happy with what i and my vehicles can do.I'm no expert.I just wanna enjoy.

also since you have such a not going to be put down attitude maybe we should sit and talk sometime.I have a similar view about a lot of thing in india.cars wouldn't even be on that list.

Going OT.hehe

Carry on folks!


EDIT:

BBlost: same biker feelings here man.we buy a vehicle and then we make it.just like we did with the bulltt.Bought it for over a lakh.Spend a few ten thousands on it.and then looking at it marking its territory on my driveway.

Oh by the way does the Thar leak also?

The reason i'm buying it is i want to do the same things i can with the bullet but with my better half safely in a cage.plus the wind in the hair feeling would be nice as there would be no helmets.

[Xinger]

Most people (even gurus) here are asking that if small hatchbacks which cost 3L can offer good/modern interiors, why can't the Thar when it costs 6L? That is difference of 3L, which is HUGE! Ok, Let's do a crude price breakdown of why the basic Thar would cost more than a basic hatch:

Sheet metal used for the body is much thicker (thus more expensive) than a small hatch. Lets say this is=50k

4x4 drivetrain plus associated changes in transmission etc (ref.: the 4x4 version of the Tata Safari EX is 1L more than the 4x2 version) =1L

The Thar engine is much more powerful than a hatch engine. Plus its a diesel. Lets say this power + diesel difference is =another 1L

So, 0.5+1+1= 2.5 Lakhs right there! Ok, you say triumphantly, I just admitted the difference was 3L! Where's the remaining 50k gone?

Patience, I'm coming to that.

NOW factor in ECONOMIES OF SCALE, which would be huge considering each hatch would be selling thousands of times more units PER MONTH than a vehicle such as the Thar! (Remember, most hatches are designed, built and priced with global markets in mind) What would that be worth? 1L? Maybe even 2L? Actually, its probably more. But of course, some of that would be negated by the fact that M&M did not spend much on R&D/design, but not all of it.

Now I'm sure people people with much greater knowledge on these subjects than me will jump in and point out by how much I'm off in each of these figures, but the fact remains that is there IS a greater cost involved!!!

So, I put it to all of you humbly, the Thar is NOT OVERPRICED for what it offers, CONSIDERING it is a NICHE VEHICLE with a very limited potential market.

[Jaggu]

Originally Posted by navpreet318

Thar had bad interiors.Its the worst car ever built.so on and so forth!

I will not agree to this. Thar is a great car! Its a very good driver oriented 4x4 vehicle available right now. One of the best in soft top 4x4 category especially for the highways!

What it is not: It is not the best built vehicle. Compromises have been made to a great degree, that it turns away potential buyers. Might not be the most rugged of all 4x4's and personally i feel it is overpriced. Though many including GTO and DKG feel its priced fair.

What ever said and done its a great car if you ask me.

Originally Posted by navpreet318

I don't even know what a C3JB is? What is it? really i have no clue.is it one of those old school looking jeeps? Those are the ones i dislike man.They look like the people carrier we have in uttarkashi.every villager will stop me and ask for a seat if i go out on it.LOL.

Yes the same one's but with a slightly shorter wheelbase. Villagers will have a cramped feeling if they pack more than 3 at a time along with me in the CJ3B. And its petrol hurricane engine, i might not be driving it if am passing through uttranchal on my way to leh. Coz it drinks like crazy!

Originally Posted by navpreet318

also since you have such a not going to be put down attitude maybe we should sit and talk sometime.I have a similar view about a lot of thing in india.cars wouldn't even be on that list.

I firmly voice my beliefs, thats all. I have raised the same die hard attitude against likes of none other than Arka a year back in another thread. But i was speaking for the Thar. The Thar we all were really looking forward to, though we knew it will not be 100% perfect or the dream vehicle.

EDIT

Oh man looks like the whole wide world except me loves Thar!! anyways i also love Thar!

Originally Posted by Xinger

That is difference of 3L, which is HUGE! Ok, Let's do a crude price breakdown of why the basic Thar would cost more than a basic hatch:

If the quality can be maintained, i dont think we need any such crude calculation or comparison. Please tell me how much will a better quality Dash borad add more to the cost??

Originally Posted by Xinger

Sheet metal used for the body is much thicker (thus more expensive) than a small hatch. Lets say this is=50k
===========
So, 0.5+1+1= 2.5 Lakhs right there! Ok, you say triumphantly, I just admitted the difference was 3L! Where's the remaining 50k gone?

How much will better thought out execution of seat frames and maybe few covers like gear shift and handbrake add to the cost? Mind you am talking about borrowing from existing parts bin.

Originally Posted by Xinger

NOW

Originally Posted by Xinger

factor in ECONOMIES OF SCALE, which would be huge considering each hatch would be selling thousands of times more units PER MONTH than a vehicle such as the Thar!
==============
[/b]
So, I put it to all of you humbly, the Thar is NOT OVERPRICED for what it offers, CONSIDERING it is a NICHE VEHICLE with a very limited potential market.

Same economy of scale can be used to come out with a better interiors and then make a decent sales at the same cost.

Its matter of will, maybe they will have to grab the vendor where it hurts. Show them total volume of Thar + Other models which share the same part and get them to deliver better parts. Maybe its lot more complicated, but common dude when a foreign client demands we all deliver, but what about us poor indian customers???

Look at Fiat, they are slowly doing that. And i dont think anybody has any complaints about it. That is all we, oops sorry, I expect.

[gthang]

Originally Posted by Xinger

Most people (even gurus) here are asking that if small hatchbacks which cost 3L can offer good/modern interiors, why can't the Thar when it costs 6L? That is difference of 3L, which is HUGE! Ok, Let's do a crude price breakdown of why the basic Thar would cost more than a basic hatch:

Shouldn't a fair calculation include subtraction for things that Thar does not have? Like:
1. A/C
2. Decent seats
3. Interiors (Carpeting, soundproofing, etc)
4. Extra doors

How much would that add up to?

[Xinger]

Originally Posted by Jaggu

If the quality can be maintained, i dont think we need any such crude calculation or comparison. Please tell me how much will a better quality Dash borad add more to the cost??

How much will better thought out execution of seat frames and maybe few covers like gear shift and handbrake add to the cost? Mind you am talking about borrowing from existing parts bin.

Why would they do this, when market research has already told them (including build threads here at TBHP, where no two jeeps look alike) that all jeepers like to mod their jeeps according to individual taste? If M&M were allowed to sell a personal (as opposed to commercial) vehicle with NO seats, NO dash, NO knobs and covers et al, I'm sure they would be more than happy to do so!! Knowing that most buyers would throw out the OE fitments anyway, they provided the barest basics they were allowed to get away with under regulations!!

Originally Posted by Jaggu

Same economy of scale can be used to come out with a better interiors and then make a decent sales at the same cost.

No, I'm afraid even M&M in their wildest dreams would expect a Thar to have the 'same' economies of scale as, say, a Swift.

Originally Posted by Jaggu

Its matter of will, maybe they will have to grab the vendor where it hurts. Show them total volume of Thar + Other models which share the same part and get them to deliver better parts. Maybe its lot more complicated, but common dude when a foreign client demands we all deliver, but what about us poor indian customers???

AFAIK, SA buyers are none too pleased with interior fit and finish of Thar either! And the front IFS, surprise surprise, is also a sore point with them! The only thing they are happy about is the engine! Ring a bell?

Originally Posted by Jaggu

Look at Fiat, they are slowly doing that. And i dont think anybody has any complaints about it.

Fiat is a bad example. You're actually advising M&M to follow Fiat, a company that has lost billions of dollars in the Indian market and are only kept afloat by cash infusions by the parent corporation?

Originally Posted by gthang

Shouldn't a fair calculation include subtraction for things that Thar does not have? Like:
1. A/C
2. Decent seats
3. Interiors (Carpeting, soundproofing, etc)
4. Extra doors

How much would that add up to?

You're right! It cancels out the first (sheet metal) cost, plus a few grands more!

[greatmana2000]

The steel used in a car is high strength steel mostly . The steel does not corrode except if the car is used close to a beach . So , thickness of steel does not really matter here . The strength of the steel is what matters . In many of my earlier posts regarding M&M vehicles I have always mentioned that the design strength is more important than the actual metal used .

To design a 3 lakh car so many tests , investment is needed . Testing engines , water proof tests , crash tests etc . Does the Thar undergo any extensive testing as a small hatch ?

So it is not correct to compare a decent car with a jeep .

[gthang]

Why do people get the impression when we write negative stuff about the Thar that we are bashing it?

Believe me, I was eagerly awaiting the launch of the Thar to buy one as a purely recreational vehicle, and would have bought one if it at least had the interior fit and finish of a Gypsy.

Heck, I might still buy one just the same, because it is a great vehicle, and ticks all the boxes for me as a toy. I dont plan on driving it to Leh, or anywhere far. Just for fun.

What really gets on my nerve is that it took M&M two years of "R&D" to downgrade an existing vehicle (AFAIK Export Thar was launched in 2008) for Indian market, and the whole time kept our hopes up asking for feedback. I never contributed anything to that thread as there were plenty of "Gurus" already asking for relevant things. And what do we get? Thar V1? What are we? Guinea pigs for manufacturers? It is the total lack of respect for the Indian consumer that really really annoys me.

[greatmana2000]

Originally Posted by Xinger

Why would they do this, when market research has already told them (including build threads here at TBHP, where no two jeeps look alike) that all jeepers like to mod their jeeps according to individual taste? If M&M were allowed to sell a personal (as opposed to commercial) vehicle with NO seats, NO dash, NO knobs and covers et al, I'm sure they would be more than happy to do so!! Knowing that most buyers would throw out the OE fitments anyway, they provided the barest basics they were allowed to get away with under regulations!!

Well they can have 3-4 variants with base ..mid and top end stuff . Not everyone is into customisation . Me for sure would enjoy something than spend endless hours trying to customise something which may or may not improve the performance .

Originally Posted by Xinger

No, I'm afraid even M&M in their wildest dreams would expect a Thar to have the 'same' economies of scale as, say, a Swift.

They dont have to , but again M&M dont have to pay royalties . Please do not compare a swift with a THar for heavens sake. Swift has good engineering put into it .

Originally Posted by Xinger

Fiat is a bad example. You're actually advising M&M to follow Fiat, a company that has lost billions of dollars in the Indian market and are only kept afloat by cash infusions by the parent corporation?

Fiat has so many models and they have a very good engineering team , research team which churns out new products . Fiat can survive selling technology . M&M cannot .

[Jaggu]

Originally Posted by Xinger

Why would they do this, when market research has already told them (including build threads here at TBHP, where no two jeeps look alike) that all jeepers
=======
Knowing that most buyers would throw out the OE fitments anyway, they provided the barest basics they were allowed to get away with under regulations!!

Do you really still believe the guys who build jeeps are the target audience? Absolutely NOT. If anything remotely related, it would be the guys sitting on the sidelines to enter into offroad world with cash but who did not want to spent the time in garage.

Atleast i dont know of a single person from team bhp or offroad circle who was involved in the market survey. Only interaction we had was with BD and Spike at BLR annual OTR. I dont think they were part of any marketing survey.

Originally Posted by Xinger

No, I'm afraid even M&M in their wildest dreams would expect a Thar to have the 'same' economies of scale as, say, a Swift

When did i say that it should be same as a swift baba? All i meant was any decent MBA worth his fee's can do some basic ground work, set up few interviews and collect enough relevant data, which if analyzed well could have been used to improve the product so that it can be sold atleast as a PROPER lifestyle vehicle. I think all the analyses and scale of economies was better executed for the Scorpio weekender in comparison to Thar!

Originally Posted by Xinger

none too pleased with interior fit and finish of Thar either! And the front IFS, surprise surprise, is also a sore point with them! The only thing they are happy about is the engine! Ring a bell

Let me warn you, you just opened a new can of worms. Many of us have seen and aware of these, we just didnt want to bring in another set of controversies.

Ok i still feel the LHD export model still has better built interiors though its very plasticieeee. The Adventure that came for annual OTR also had better plastics, though the glove box was falling off now and then.

Originally Posted by Xinger

Fiat is a bad example. You're actually advising M&M to follow Fiat, a company that has lost billions of dollars in the Indian market and are only kept afloat by cash infusions by the parent corporation?

Debating for debate sake are we? I said look at Fiat!!! and it does not mean learn from Fiat. In short that means one of the ill-reputed name in India when it comes to plastics and interior execution IS also taking notice and attending to the faults!!!

Originally Posted by Xinger

You're right! It cancels out the first (sheet metal) cost, plus a few grands more!

As i said earlier its not that black and white. Only the front CV joint costs 40k. Add transfer case, auto lock hub and on and on

Let us not please take reference talk to unreasonable extent also. When i compared a 5.9 lakh OTR vehicle to 5.9 lakh Ex showroom vehicle, i was just trying to convey the "expectation" of the Indian market wrt 5,90,000/- INR. I had already mentioned it is not that simple a calculation!

Even if you are a guru or not!

[Xinger]

Originally Posted by greatmana2000

To design a 3 lakh car so many tests , investment is needed . Testing engines , water proof tests , crash tests etc . Does the Thar undergo any extensive testing as a small hatch ?

Why are you ignoring how big a factor economy of scale is?

Dec 2010 sales figures:

Swift - 11600

Gypsy - 264

A profit of 10000 bucks on each swift translates to 11,600x10,000= Rs 11,60,00,000 (11 and a half crores)

A profit of 10000 bucks on each Gypsy translates to 264x10,000=Rs 26,40,000 (26 and a half lakhs)

NOW ADD all the discounts they would get from vendors for giving them such huge orders for Swift parts.

To edit my reply to your edited reply, M&M did pay royalties (huge ones) to Jeep, from whom they got the design in the first place!

And please, I am not comparing engineering merits of Swift vs Thar!! I am merely talking about the financial merits to a company of allocating resources to a mass market vehicle like Swift as opposed to a niche vehicle like Thar! Sheesh!

[Jaggu]

Originally Posted by Xinger

A profit of 10000 bucks on each swift translates to 11,600x10,000= Rs 11,60,00,000 (11 and a half crores)

A profit of 10000 bucks on each Gypsy translates to 264x10,000=Rs 26,40,000 (26 and a half lakhs)

Swift that was developed in the year 2000 (couple of billions) VS a Samurai design which is what 25 years old (couple of lesser billions with already a sales lead of lakhs over the year)? Wrong comparison. we all can understand what you are trying to convey with the theory. But dear xinger i dont think either me or you are qualified enough to get into the details for any of these models with couple of posts and justify the theory. There are so many other parameters and factors.

Originally Posted by Xinger

NOW ADD all the discounts they would get from vendors for giving them such huge orders for Swift parts.

Do you think a manufacturing supply chain works like this?

Originally Posted by Xinger

M&M did pay royalties (huge ones) to Jeep, from whom they got the design in the first place!

Which part of Thar owes a royalty fee? Or did you mean the royalty they paid last in 70's or something??

Originally Posted by Xinger

And please, I am not comparing engineering merits of Swift vs Thar!! I am merely talking about the financial merits to a company of allocating resources to a mass market vehicle like Swift as opposed to a niche vehicle like Thar! Sheesh!

Simple question, why should we bother about financial logic or budget allocation of M&M and try to then justify their product. Aren't we supposed to be the customers ie on the other side???? Without us the niche does not even exist

PS: Love your Obelix avatar