[DKG]

Originally Posted by Jaggu

please dont pull in Gypsy into the whole equation. There are many of us who has used it and its at a very different league on a highway. I would love to do whole of India in one once i put an AC into it.

Jaggu but the ride quality onroad of a Gypsy is no patch on the Thar and its a petrol. How many enthusiasts do you reckon who without a grudge will drive thousands of kms in a petrol offroader?

[Jaggu]

Originally Posted by DKG

Jaggu but the ride quality onroad of a Gypsy is no patch on the Thar and its a petrol. How many enthusiasts do you reckon who without a grudge will drive thousands of kms in a petrol offroader?

Sir ride quality is not that bad as people make it to be. Yes it is NOT as good as Thar but on a highway its NOT at all bad. Petrol Vs Diesel is just like my VFM point against Thar.

EDIT: Please note this ride quality is for front seats only, in BOTH the vehicles. Rear of Thar is not exactly a carpet ride. Do check it out.

For me putting petrol for 10-12k kms a year makes sense more than locking up a lakh with purchase. So it will differ from person to person. And do you really think this diesel subsidy for pvt cars will last for ever?

[DKG]

Originally Posted by star_aqua

Hi DKG,
with THAR we can definitely build the offroading community and we will come to a situation where we will bring down the current standards to an extent where we call the trail driving as offroading and we cannot take the offroading to any higher level.

Actually you will see the reverse effect. The Thar will grow the community to a large enough size where a market for more focused offroaders with robust unbreakable components will emerge. Right now the market is too tiny for your "ideal" offroader.

In 5-10 years I see the offroading industry to be sizeable with scores of high end offroad equipment stores across the country.

I see Thar's with trailers with home built totally spec'd out offroad machines being towed to sites for your "extreme" offroad events.

I see people importing axles and engines and fabricating their offroaders. The old Jeeps won't have enough juice to handle extreme offroad events where only custom designed crazy machines can handle.

So the Thar won't water down the sport. It will actually deliver hundreds hopefully thousands of new well heeled enthusiasts into the fold who will eventually take the sport to what people enjoy internationally.

[DKG]

Originally Posted by Jaggu

For me putting petrol for 10-12k kms a year makes sense more than locking up a lakh with purchase. So it will differ from person to person. And do you really think this diesel subsidy for pvt cars will last for ever?

Jaggu you believe the Gypsy is VFM at 6.5 onroad? I personally don't think so. On smooth highways its fine but on slightly rough roads the Gypsy feels like a mixie.

Used Gypsies and Jeeps I still feel will be an option for people who can't afford them new

Interestingly when you look at who the Gypsy appealed to it was quite obviously a new generation of enthusiasts who found the Jeeps too crude and who enjoyed the spirited driving the Gypsy offered despite the compromise on gearing and rear overhang. Its application in offroad rallying made it all the more endearing to many.

Now the Thar will appeal similarly to an even wider segment and will only open up its use and application for lifestyle end uses.

Its a way ahead Jaggu.

I am not saying the Jeep or Gypsy are dead. Just that few will now have the appetite to endlessly tinker with these oldies now that a more "palatable" option is available

[AltoHoncho]

Amen DKG, I am no expert but will be really willing to put my penny in this offering from M&M with the only requirement (at the moment) of a HT, AC/no-AC doesnt matter really as I have grown up all my life without it.

[ex670c]

Originally Posted by DKG

We can agree to disagree on this one Arka. I know that the Thar's impact on the offroading sport, and the CRDe at that, will be multifold as compared to old Jeeps and Gypsies. People simply won't have the time, patience, or effort to make the endless trips to workshops to rebuild these oldies and then to drive thousands of miles in Jeeps/Gypsies to participate in events. We all did so because we didn't have a choice. Now that we do you will see more guys gravitating to a Thar (CRDe)

My hunch on the future of old Jeeps and Gypsies is that its only lack of funds to buy a new Thar which will sustain the business of a few oldies getting restored for the job. The vast majority of buyers for a vehicle like this (and mind you this is a new breed of enthusiasts that will emerge) won't hesitate to buy a Thar as compared to buying a disposal army Jeep and spending time effort and money restoring it. Ofcourse there may be exceptions like you who even if you can afford a Thar will never buy one because you can't now be seen in a vehicle with IFS

I know both of us will be around to see this borne out soon.

Hi DKG,

I use a JEEP/MM540XD as a daily drive and for Off-Road, so something brand new is very welcome to me.

Since I prefer to use my daily drive off-road and vice-versa, the Thar CRDe does not fit my bill because of the IFS.

As for my Off-Road Vehicle I prefer a No-Compromise and Maximum Traction Approach, the IFS is a let down.

Since I prefer to endlessly tinker with my vehicles to improve its performance and capability, again the IFS will seriously hamper things.

Many people have seen me driving an IFS vehicle, that happens to be my Ford Fiesta, it has Rack & Pinion Steering, TDCi engine, A/C and Music System.

That is IFS for Me.

Regards,

Arka

[Jaggu]

Originally Posted by DKG

Jaggu you believe the Gypsy is VFM at 6.5 onroad? I personally don't think so. On smooth highways its fine but on slightly rough roads the Gypsy feels like a mixie.

Its 6.28 Gypsy Vs 7.28 Thar OTR in BLR, and for me Gypsy definitely is value for money as my second/third car. Its got better build, more robust and cheaper parts which is of prime importance for me.

I have a whole thread dedicated to this debate here http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-ve...-page-9-a.html

About ride i will not agree to slightly rough patch! either the person is pussy footing at low speeds that it is bumpy and maybe over serious craters Or there is something seriously wrong with this particular vehicle. We have driven all over India in gyspies and generally fly over it as if rough patch does not exist, no drama at all. I really dont think its a mixie on slightly rougher roads. Ask Starter he just did a long trip with his whole family.

I have told this again and again, on a nicely/heavily broken patch Thar would be comfortable even at high speeds. But i dont drive fast if the road is broken up beyond a limit, be it swift, gypsy, thar or for that matter any vehicle, coz i dont think it is the right method.

EDIT: Saw your edit am not going to forecast if Thar would do this or that. Am a realist and i would love to see off road as a sport to grow. Right now the scene is events are reducing in number due to issues like permissions/environmental buhaa etc. And i don't quite enjoy events like Great escapes in its current form.

Just like Thar is blown out of proportion, Gypsy is always bashed up beyond reason. I love jeeps and i have no qualms in accepting Gypsy is also a capable vehicle in the right hands, do some basic mods and it become a potent weapon. They rule the extreme raid for a reason, we like it or not.

[ex670c]

Originally Posted by star_aqua

Hi DKG,
with THAR we can definitely build the offroading community and we will come to a situation where we will bring down the current standards to an extent where we call the trail driving as offroading and we cannot take the offroading to any higher level.

Hi Vijay,

I think you have expressed a very valid point.

BTW the Mahindra Great Escapes take care of such eventualities.

Regards,

Arka

Originally Posted by DKG

Actually you will see the reverse effect. The Thar will grow the community to a large enough size where a market for more focused offroaders with robust unbreakable components will emerge. Right now the market is too tiny for your "ideal" offroader.

In 5-10 years I see the offroading industry to be sizeable with scores of high end offroad equipment stores across the country.

I see Thar's with trailers with home built totally spec'd out offroad machines being towed to sites for your "extreme" offroad events.

I see people importing axles and engines and fabricating their offroaders. The old Jeeps won't have enough juice to handle extreme offroad events where only custom designed crazy machines can handle.

So the Thar won't water down the sport. It will actually deliver hundreds hopefully thousands of new well heeled enthusiasts into the fold who will eventually take the sport to what people enjoy internationally.

Hi DKG,

Don't you think that the lack of Modify-ability of the Thar CRDe will be a deterrent for people who want to buy if for Off-Road.

If you foresee people buying the Thar and Changing Axles (Solid Axle Swap) then the cycle of tinkering and visiting mechanics, starts all over again.

Custom Design is a different spectrum, this will only happen after we max out on the existing platforms, Engine/Suspension/Chassis/Axles limitations.

And once there are enough competitive events where the stakes are high.

Well Heeled will again mean a person who has got down to tinkering and fixing his vehicle again and again.

Regards,

Arka

[roy_libran]

Off-roading perspectives are relative, and this relativity is individual and market driven. What WE (in India) like to call Hard-core Off-Roading is actually Soft-core by standards set in many other countries. Check out some Youtube videos to see what I am referring to.

But, I'd not blame the ABILITY of our hard-core off-roaders in this context, rather the mass availability of extreme machines at a realistic Cost!

So, over a period of time, driven by the CJs, MMs , Gypsies and a few Gurkhas that are available easily in India, we have Evolved a definition for Off-roading, and are trying to stick by it. This definition pales with what we can see in some other countries. And, this definition is liable to change with the advent of vehicles like the Thar.

Greater interest and participation in Off-Roading as a Sporting activity, is only possible, when vehicles with a certain degree of capability, reliability and usability are available. The Thar compromises, somewhat, on the Capability front, but gives back a Lot More on the Usability and Reliability fronts. This, I'd presume, is an acceptable trade-off for many of us.

So, although we might reduce the standards of Off-Roading a bit to accommodate the Thar (in Stock condition), the sport should eventually gain from this newcomer. Let us all be a bit flexible with our definitions here, considering that we don't do the most extreme variety of Off Roading anywhere in India (AFAIK).

So, I agree with DKG's perspective, apart from his views on it's easy usability in it's current Avatar. For us folks in North India, getting an AC and HT is imperative, owing to the FANTASTIC weather conditions we get here, before we start plonking money into this vehicle.

[shankar.balan]

What we should also bear in mind that given our economic considerations and stage of evolution, an automobile including a JEEP is mostly an utility vehicle in India. The concept of leisure off roading and other such sports are the preserve of a select few.

[ex670c]

Originally Posted by roy_libran

Off-roading perspectives are relative, and this relativity is individual and market driven. What WE (in India) like to call Hard-core Off-Roading is actually Soft-core by standards set in many other countries. Check out some Youtube videos to see what I am referring to.

But, I'd not blame the ABILITY of our hard-core off-roaders in this context, rather the mass availability of extreme machines at a realistic Cost!

So, over a period of time, driven by the CJs, MMs , Gypsies and a few Gurkhas that are available easily in India, we have Evolved a definition for Off-roading, and are trying to stick by it. This definition pales with what we can see in some other countries. And, this definition is liable to change with the advent of vehicles like the Thar.

Hi Roy,

Since the JEEPs in INDIA, have utility purpose, hence their design.

The Design has now advanced to that of the mid-1980s, and above 70Bhp, still sub 100Bhp hence our off-road events are tame compared to what we see outside.

So compared to the international scenario we are 20 yrs behind, so is the off-road culture and the definition and whatever happens we DON'T want to LOWER it.

Regards,

Arka

[MileCruncher]

While speaking to the Regional Sales Manager regarding the Thar launch in Hyderabad, I was given to understand that already the bookings have exceeded expectation and the production line is full for the next 3 months for THAR. So rest of India (including Hyderabad) launch has got pushed back.

If the THAR in present format gets lapped up the way it is then I don't think the V2 with refinement can be expected anytime soon

[Axe77]

I think that T-BHP mod reviews are outstanding by any standards. But this particular review exceeds any review I have read on the site by a long shot !! Absolutely fantastic.

I think all Mags and channels should take a cue from this review. They'll actually learn more from it than they have to offer on their own.

Kudos.

[DKG]

Originally Posted by ex670c

so something brand new is very welcome to me.

How about the new Thar MDI in its present guise? Is that not a solid axled version?

Further if you wanted the CRDe version with solid axle and FFRA then why not take a CRDe, rip the IFS out and weld in a leaf spring set up in the front and plonk a FFRA with lockers in the back. Fit an a/c and hardtop and music system and for under 10 lacs you will have your ultimate offroad machine and a hot daily driver !!

[IronWolf]

Originally Posted by DKG

Further if you wanted the CRDe version with solid axle and FFRA then why not take a CRDe, rip the IFS out and weld in a leaf spring set up in the front and plonk a FFRA with lockers in the back. Fit an a/c and hardtop and music system and for under 10 lacs you will have your ultimate offroad machine and a hot daily driver !!

Interesting suggestion. In the hands of a able shop - is this not possible?

Agreed the calculations and engineering should be flawless for it to work well.

57" Front live axle, 53" FFRA + Lockers, CRDe. (Many may even hint at SPOA, but tall tires should just be enough) Wicket Combo.

Someone suggested this earlier...... Let me search.