[manasm]

Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM

But then, 521 was 521, the "real" Thar! .

That said, your recent comments have given me a golden opportunity, so thanks. Now, I shall:

REPEAT MY DREAM! .

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

The statement above is one of the most annoying to hear from anyone, let alone one of the core product people for the Thar. If 521 was the real Thar, what have you sold us?

As a product engineer to another, if you can't finish the product to the spec and your satisfaction, don't put it on sale! That is irresponsible...

Originally Posted by harikrishnanm

Jeep Wrangler is being planned in India by TaMo. Should be twice the cost of the Thar (if you are to believe the reports on the internet).

Am willing to spend double for the Wrangler, since I know I will get a reliable product...

[DHABHAR.BEHRAM]

Originally Posted by manasm

The statement above is one of the most annoying to hear from anyone, let alone one of the core product people for the Thar. If 521 was the real Thar, what have you sold us? As a product engineer to another, if you can't finish the product to the spec and your satisfaction, don't put it on sale! That is irresponsible.

Dear Manas - thanks for your absolutely correct query. Like 521, I can give you umpteen number of "real" vehicles which we as "real product engineers" would like to see running on the roads. However, that does not mean that the products that we release are in any way inferior to our "wishlist" products. 521 was a "wishlist prototype" and hopefully continues to remain so. I can tell you very clearly that 521 in its R&D prototype avataar as I used it to demonstrate its prowess will not meet the law of the land (CMVR). AKC / EXAMM was for me, RWUP (Real World Usage Pattern) testing, from which I knew what my production vehicle would do in customers' hands. I have been stressing "real Thar - real Thar" to make you people sit up, take notice (now thanks!) and then some of you can convert your vehicles to become like 521 because all aggregates are freely available in the market. One vehicle is already converted in Bangalore for brakes. After all, Thar CRDe is nothing but a Scorpio in disguise, isn't it? I hope at least now I have been able to clarify.

Regarding your comment "don't put it on sale", my good friend, this was the exact intention of "many people". HaHaHa! .

It would have remained as a project in an excel file but inspite of "everything", I actually pushed the change process and realized my dream, that's where the challenge lies, that's what winning is all about, isn't it?

If nobody resists, where is the fun, how does the team get charged? DISCONTINUITY is a healthy practice, so the team thanks the guys who resisted! The thing is selling out there and there is nothing anyone can do about it, because the market is pulling the product and "for now" it is in a TINA market (there is no alternative). Let's see!

You may not agree with my comments but that would be your personal opinion which I shall always respect!

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

[discoverwild]

Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM

Mumbai - Nasik, 179 kms in 2 hours and 5 minutes, week after week after week!

DB Sir, Was the Thar just built for speed on the highway? Please do not call the 521 a Thar, if what we get is supposed to be the Thar.

[DHABHAR.BEHRAM]

Originally Posted by Frankenstein

Sir, your last dream itself is a cannon in the right hands, this i experienced in Speedys thar at Mcube, cant wait to see your next dream come true and i am sure ill lay my destructive hands on it and be proven wrong again by not being able to break it.

Dear Frankenstein - oh, so it was you with Abhishek! Thanks for your comments. You have said it all! Abhishek, your Thar looks deadly, especially the roll cage!

Dear Discoverwild - I just read your comment. You are missing the point completely. I have no issue giving you guys a monster tire or something like that in a production vehicle but even the PM of India cannot get you the CMVR certificate for it because it will not meet BS4 on Chassis Dynamometer in ARAI in Pune. If at all I make it to meet emissions, (next to impossible), it will fail in external projections. Then it will fail in something else. There is no end to this, please understand. No CMVR, no sale. Then all of us, including the corporate types can sit there and argue and twiddle our thumbs and play bhajans till we are all history. That was not my intention. Mere bhai - Thar is meant to be driven fast on the highway, so what? It also offroads exceedingly well, see Frankenstein's comment above, so what? Buy it if you like it, it is a personal call. This is what India (CMVR) allowed me to make. Simple! QED!

I also know what all is happening to it now! / .

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

[discoverwild]

Dear DB Sir,

You are missing our point too!
We are not asking for monster tyres or even snorkels and winches. What we need is robust build quality and good ergonomics. CMVR will definitely have no issues with that.

[headers]

@DB Sir and friends @ M&M:

I hope CMVR permits a manufacturer to :

1. Give better Switchgear
2. Give better Steering [both response and re-centering]
3. Give better Brakes [ Not the over servoed juggad of a brake with a Big Booster ]
4. Give Auto Lockers at the Factory level.
5. Give better Gear shift quality rather than Bombay to Delhi affair currently
6. Lockable Glovebox
7. Atleast AT tyres to go with the pseudo macho look!

Just because it is TINA does not mean the customers are taken for a ride - That attitude is not correct IMHO!

PS: Have a close friend of mine who has taken delivery of a THAR CRDe very recently and is unhappy with the

1. 4WD shift quality
2. The ST flapping at speeds above 70 odd kph.
3. Seats quality - His customised 540 is comfortable in comparison to the THAR
3. Is searching for a HT to install!!


He has been jeeping for more than 20 years!!

[Suedehead]

Gentlemen. I wish you wouldnt fight. We all have a choice. To choose or not to choose. We can berate a manufacturer till the cows come home. At the end of the day, it is us who choose to sign on the cheque line. The Thar may or may not have a million imperfections depending on whom we speak with. But at the end of the day, the choice is always with the buying customer. My sincere apologies if this sounds offensive but I do assure you, there is no offense intended.

I pick up my slightly customised (courtesy M&M) Thar this Saturday. I am excited. I chose to buy it over a Pajero or a Koleos knowing fully well I could afford one. My motivation was different. I am no rock climber but a mere traveller (wife included).

We all buy things that we desire. To each his own.

For sure, I'll upgrade my Thar's brakes as suggested by Mr. Dhabhar. Could I have asked for hot interiors and a HT? Yes. But then I had a choice. I exercised it. I respect opinions. I've learnt so much from yours. I just wanted a simple vehicle that can withstand abuse and take some love. She may not be perfect, but she is out there at a spot where no one else is.

Best regards.

[codelust]

Just so that we don't repeat the same endlessly-beaten-to-death arguments again, I'll try to summarize the current state of play.

* DB tried ascertaining what everyone would like in what eventually turned out to be the Thar.
* Everyone, including hardcore rock crawlers/mud-pluggers, poured their hearts into the suggestions and recommendations.
* When it came out, the Thar was not the hardcore offroader's dream.
* The Thar that is in production is not the Thar it could have been. CMVR, management and other factors to be blamed for it. But it did make it to production, even though there was a lot going against it. As imperfect as the product may be, we have to appreciate that.
* It was not the dream of the TG who were looking for a fair bit of utility from the vehicle, beyond its robust mechanical capabilties.
* It was not the dream that DB would have wanted to put out. It was not what the hardcore junta wanted. It was not what the average Joe (Ashok Kumars, to be context-sensitive) wanted.
* End result: Hardcore offroaders are not happy, DB is not entirely happy, people who bought it are not entirely happy, people who did not buy it are not entirely happy.
* The quality of the end product is shoddy - nobody is disputing this.
* It is a promising platform - nobody is disputing this.
* It is selling well - nobody is disputing this.
* In short: we all have won and we all have lost.
* The glimmer of hope: reading tea leaves/coffee beans and other things DB is cooking up something. The Thar has proven that there exists a market for even a product that is overpriced and incomplete. If you can look at the Thar as the beginning than the end, it may make sense to everyone.

As far as comparisions to the Wranglers go, I'll suggest we all look at the following video:

RUBICAT on the RUBICON: The EVO MFG Bolt-On Coil Over Kit in Action - YouTube

This is the latest product form the Project JK guys. One thing that will stand out immediately is that it is nowhere close to stock and has money plonked into it at a level close to how much the Jeep cost out of the factory in the first place. I find on this thread people often asking for lockers, crawler gears etc from a stock vehicle. It rarely happens in the world, especially at the price point we are happy buying the vehicle at. To rubbish a product based on that is seriously silly.

This comes from a person who won't buy the Thar in its current avatar. But I do think that some of the complaining here is seriously over the top, even though I strongly believe that on a scale of 1-10, the Thar as a product is maybe at 5.5 and it has a long way to go still.

[jp1]

I was eagerly waiting for Thar's release to replace my Bolero. After the release, my excitement vanished. If Thar was offered around 6 lakhs ex factory, I would have gone for it. That is all it is worth. You may say it is scorpio without the shell, So how much scorpio would cost without the shell and other creature comfort, not more than 6 lakhs. I am still stuck with the Bolero and cant find a suitable replacement and the new Bolero is horrible, it is the same old one with an under rated engine and no safety features even after so many years and it cost almost 9 lakhs OTR. No convenience such as a foldable 2nd row seat. Now I am waiting for the Mini xylo and then decide.

[DHABHAR.BEHRAM]

Originally Posted by jp1

I am still stuck with the Bolero and cant find a suitable replacement and the new Bolero is horrible, it is the same old one with an under rated engine and no safety features even after so many years and it cost almost 9 lakhs OTR.

Dear jp1 - sorry to digress to Bolero on a Thar thread. I had a Bolero too. It was MH15CM6341. I returned it when I left M&M. It was the fastest and the best Bolero in India. If you say that "the new Bolero is horrible", I tend to agree with you, no Bolero even came close to my Bolero which could keep up with a Mercedes M class on the expressway, flat out and handle almost like it was on rails.

Would my Bolero specification vehicle sell if it was put in production? Maybe not! Now look at the flipside, whatever today's "horrible" Bolero is, IT SELLS 1 LAKH VEHICLES PER YEAR! This is what managements look at, and from their point of view, what they are doing is correct.

Dear Suedehead - "she may not be perfect but she is out there at a spot where no one else is". You just wrapped up the whole thing perfectly. This is like Wow! Thanks!

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

[manasm]

@Codelust - I was not asking for a HT or lockers etc.

I just wanted a vehicle where I don't bruise my knuckles when using the stalks. Where the seat is at least slightly comfortable if not aligned to the steering wheel...a vehicle where the door knobs, the door locks and window knobs don't break off in my hand! A vehicle where brakes are adequate without me having to spend an additional 75k to fit what should be coming from the factory. I don't think that is too much to ask in today's world at that price point. I would re-read headers last post. I agree with him whole heartedly.

I am not blaming Mr Dhabar at all. He did what he could with his constraints I guess. But what I expected from him was a bit more support and clear answers since this was his baby.

Would I buy another Mahindra product after the Thar - well, the answer is "once bitten, twice shy".

A friend wanted to get 10 XUVs for his business. Had to tell him to stay away from Mahindra. He bought 10 Xenons. I know 10 vehicles may not make a difference to Mahindra in the overall scheme of things, but if more people stay away, it is going to hurt them in the long run.

Regards,
Manas

Originally Posted by codelust

Just so that we don't repeat the same endlessly-beaten-to-death arguments again, I'll try to summarize the current state of play.

[codelust]

Originally Posted by manasm

Would I buy another Mahindra product after the Thar - well, the answer is "once bitten, twice shy".

A friend wanted to get 10 XUVs for his business. Had to tell him to stay away from Mahindra. He bought 10 Xenons. I know 10 vehicles may not make a difference to Mahindra in the overall scheme of things, but if more people stay away, it is going to hurt them in the long run.

That's the best way to vote as a customer. Wish more people would do the same. Just curious, are you looking to sell the vehicle?

I have no issues with any customer asking for his money's worth, but it is tiresome to have the same points made over and over again - be it in support of the product or criticizing it.

But one thing does baffle me. When the Thar came out a lot of members who did not like the product and the pricing predicted a flood of used Thars in the market. I'm yet to see that. In fact, a common reason given for selling a lot of the MM550s in the classifieds section seem to be a Thar upgrade. Even on Delhi roads I'm seeing an increasing number of new Thars.

I can only form two conclusions from it: 1) The problems that are mentioned as a deal breaker is not that big a deal for most people 2) People are buying it in spite of being aware of these issues.

[DHABHAR.BEHRAM]

Originally Posted by manasm

I just wanted a vehicle where the seat is at least slightly comfortable if not aligned to the steering wheel. I am not blaming Mr Dhabar at all. He did what he could with his constraints I guess. But what I expected from him was a bit more support and clear answers since this was his baby.

A friend wanted to get 10 XUVs for his business. Had to tell him to stay away from Mahindra. He bought 10 Xenons. I know 10 vehicles may not make a difference to Mahindra in the overall scheme of things, but if more people stay away, it is going to hurt them in the long run.

Dear Manas - thanks for your understanding. If I had waited to give you guys all that you wanted (combination switch included), I would be still waiting, people would have used all sorts of exuses to score brownie points and the bean counters would be laughing all the way into meetings where there is lots of activity but very little actual achievement. By the way, in Thar, the front floor is of Bolero, the seat mounting location is of Belero, the seat stool is of Bolero, the seat is of Bolero, the steering column position is of Bolero, even the steering wheel is of Bolero. Needless to say, Bolero has the same offset steering wheel. Bolero sells 100000 vehicles per year. This is customer insight. This is not to justify anything, it is only for your information.

Yesterday, as I was driving home to Pune from work in Pimpri, I saw a white XUV500 standing with a "for sale" board on its top. As I was test driving one vehicle, it hit a pothole and "something shifted" in the suspension. The steering wheel, which was dead straight, now remains very slightly skewed. The innards of the vehicle have started becoming "loose". And those "brown interiors", God help me, it gives me claustophobia every time I sit inside! I hope these "customer-centric" and not "marketing list" inputs are captured in the test DVPs (design validation plans). I capture them in my work. .

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

[manasm]

@Codelust -

I know quite a few people with Thars - out of which there are a few who know about cars and Thars like Rajith just to name one. The majority of the people I know with Thars have modded it with bling and want it to drive on saturday or sunday around MG Road or to parties in Bangalore. It is just to show off.
Thats why people are buying Thars - most of the people are not even aware of the issues with the Thar - it is only to say that they drive a jeep. Thats quite sad since the original intention was to have a offroad enthusiast vehicle.

I have been unable to participate in most offroad events for the simple reason that my wife cannot handle sitting in the vehicle and my daughter throws up in it. There is nowhere to even hold onto if you are sitting in the rear of a stock vehicle. I am slowly (and expensively) modding the vehicle so it is comfortable for my family to travel in. So until then, can't even take the Thar offroad really. And that drives me crazy. I have done Arizona, Texas, Nevada and California in an old 80s Bronco which is a lot more ergonomic and comfortable than the Thar and cost a hell of a lot less - imagine that.

Having said that, I do like to drive the Thar (not everyday). The engine is great and although the gearbox is terrible, it is not as bad as an ambassador or a padmini premier.

The Thar has already cost me about 11+lakhs and I am only about 1/3 done. The brakes still need to be upgraded and some more safety issues need to be sorted out.

If the Wrangler comes in under 20L, I will sell the Thar and buy one since I know I will not have to spend more than the cost of the vehicle to have a dependable one.

Regards,
Manas

Originally Posted by codelust

That's the best way to vote as a customer. Wish more people would do the same. Just curious, are you looking to sell the vehicle?

I have no issues with any customer asking for his money's worth, but it is tiresome to have the same points made over and over again - be it in support of the product or criticizing it.

But one thing does baffle me. When the Thar came out a lot of members who did not like the product and the pricing predicted a flood of used Thars in the market. I'm yet to see that. In fact, a common reason given for selling a lot of the MM550s in the classifieds section seem to be a Thar upgrade. Even on Delhi roads I'm seeing an increasing number of new Thars.

I can only form two conclusions from it: 1) The problems that are mentioned as a deal breaker is not that big a deal for most people 2) People are buying it in spite of being aware of these issues.

[DHABHAR.BEHRAM]

Originally Posted by manasm

The majority of the people I know with Thars have modded it with bling and want it to drive on saturday or sunday around MG Road or to parties in Bangalore. It is just to show off.
Thats why people are buying Thars. It is only to say that they drive a jeep. Thats quite sad since the original intention was to have a offroad enthusiast vehicle.

Dear Manas - I agree with you, although the original intent was to have an offroad enthusiast vehicle which I believe is achieved, in India, I know that we have a critically large mass of people who want only bling. There is nothing wrong if they buy, after all they are the ones who have most of the money. That's why I had always advocated Thar CRDe 2WD also because this population will never venture where you and I revel and enjoy our hobby. However, in order not to dilute the performance and the brand, it would be more prudent to conduct a project to make the Thar DI 2WD look like the Thar CRDe. It need not go like one. This is a niche not covered till now. .

In any case, volumes per month are based on manufacturing capacity rather than demand, they just cannot make more vehicles. If they make double, then also all of them will sell and all three models will sell. The latent demand is very high. Why do you think I want to repeat my dream? There is a market out there, waiting. .

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar