[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by thoma

Is it all about just metal deposits? Isn't it also about 'initial' loading cycles, surface defects (if any) being polished steadily than abruptly, that matter for fatigue longevity of metal parts.

I could be wrong but would like to be corrected by experts, if so. Or do you mean to say that all the difference it makes would be the engine lasting a 2.5 lac kms vs a 2 lac kms?

You can't compare polishing or resurfacing or machining with the effects of what we in this thread call running in.

On fatigue, there is a very simple rule of thumb for metals; if it didn't break after 6 million cycles it is not going to break due to fatigue ever. Wear and tear might speed up the process. So an engine running at a couple of thousand of RPM will very quickly reach that 6 million cycles.
Much of today's mind set is borrowed from yesterday's wisdom, when machining quality, techniques and materials wasn't as good as it is today. BUT, THINGS HAVE CHANGED, and still yesterday's mind set remains. What does it actually hurt? Nothing. BUT, the ring seal won't be optimal.

The whole running in is a historic carry over from an era long past. If an engine is going to have problems, it's going to have problems no matter how you break it in. Modern engines are made with incredible small and accurate tolerances for all their moving and rotating part. The sheer notion that parts need to wear together is ridiculous. If parts are wearing together, you will find metal shavings and as I said before you are in for big problems if you detect any metal after a few thousand kilometer

In fact if you were to measure bearing and piston ring clearances before putting a new engine into service and after 20k miles, you'd be hard pressed to find any difference.

There is even a modern engineering thought that advocates quite hard wearing in. Which could be particularly beneficial for the pistion rings. Both quantifiable (measured compression) and visually (blow by).

I have written somewhere else on the forum about the research I partook on lubrication oil and wear and tear. I have said it many times, but allowing your engine/gears etc to warm up gradually to normal operating temperatures is far more important. Replacing a stuck thermostat valve that keeps your cooling water 10oC below it normal value is far more important then this running in business. Running cold engines/gear hard will give immediate, measurable, wear and tear very quickly. On new and old engines alike.

Yes, other parts of the car such as tyres and brakes apparently need running in to. Although admittedly, I have never ever seen any test data as to what sort of effect you could have. You put new brake pads on and your car doesn't break to good? Go back and get it fixed. Therer should be neglible difference in braking performance between new and used pads (used up to point of course). Dont believe mechanics that tell you the engine- , brake-, suspension-, tyre- or whatever problem will go away after a bit of running in. Very few problems do. In fact most of these will just get worse.

So running in does very little if anything for your car and or engine. Taking good care of you car, engine and other components do. Although to your original thought a lot of the good caretaking will be the difference in reaching 250.000 km instead of 200.000 kilomters without major problems.

So, that's why I love buying cars from members of car forums. They always take such good care and they keep buying new cars so I can snap those well maintained cars at 150K.

Enjoy

Jeroen

[lucifer1881]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

...Much of today's mind set is borrowed from yesterday's wisdom, when machining quality, techniques and materials wasn't as good as it is today. BUT, THINGS HAVE CHANGED, and still yesterday's mind set remains....

<slow clap, steadily rising to a crescendo>

Thank you, Jeroen, for articulating this brilliantly. While your post is against the tide of this forum's thoughts and beliefs, it is only by swimming against the current that salmon are able to spawn (thereby providing us with some super tasty fish dishes, but I digress).

We forget that it took a certain Charles Rolls and Henry Royce to completely shatter conventional thought, and design an automobile that could do London to New Castle without having to be built several times over during the course of the journey. It took a Henry Ford to set up mass production, which made cars affordable. And it took a GM to tell the aforementioned Henry Ford that there are colours other than black that cars need to be painted with.

Today's cars are very good. They are better than good. They work in Siberia as well as in the Sahara desert. They work in Mumbai as well as in the Himalayas. You can leave a car parked for weeks, and still expect it to start on the first crank. Checking engine oil, water, brake fluids, etc. each morning is a thing of the past - you do it if you are nerdy about it but it is not really needed.

When was the last time anyone had a puncture? Tyres are brilliant too. In fact, I am willing to bet all my posts on this forum that three-fourths of the members here would not be able to change their tyre. This is not a commentary on people's ability or skills or knowledge. It is simply not needed today, except in very rare circumstances.

So why then should run-in process remain the same? I never bothered with the running-in for my new Bolero in 2009. From the showroom in Hyderabad, I took it straight to the mountains of Ladakh. First oil change was supposed to be at 1000km. I did it at 3300km. Sacrilege in the eyes of car enthusiasts, yes. But not a deal breaker by any stretch of the imagination.

I think we need to chill a bit, and I am not being cavalier in my statement. Look after your steed, follow manufacturer guidelines, go over the top if you must - she is your car, after all, and only you get to decide how you want to treat her (yes, cars are feminine, and the way a man treats his car is a reflection on how he treats his women). But might I suggest a little refrain in suggesting 'best' practices. Most of them are antiquated and outdated, and have little relevance today.

[anoop_lamba]

Well now that I have read mixed opinions about the need to run in modern engines/cars, I am confused what should be my approach.

I am planning to buy Punto Evo MJD 75bhp soon. I work in Jaipur and buying the car from Delhi which is my hometown.

Within a couple of days of taking delivery at Delhi, I will need to drive it to Jaipur and Delhi-Jaipur weekend trips will be freuquently made on the car.

Is this a concern?

Would highly appreciate some expert advice on this.

[a4anurag]

Originally Posted by anoop_lamba

Within a couple of days of taking delivery at Delhi, I will need to drive it to Jaipur and Delhi-Jaipur weekend trips will be freuquently made on the car.

Is this a concern?

Not at all.

Drive the car in a sedate manner varying speed regularly. You can occasionally touch 100 kph too but remember do NOT maintain constant RPM/speed.

Is the first service at 1000 kms?

Last but not the least go through your cars owners manual for further details and information on how to run - in.

Congratulations BTW. Have a great ownership.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by a4anurag

Not at all.

Drive the car in a sedate manner varying speed regularly. You can occasionally touch 100 kph too but remember do NOT maintain constant RPM/speed.

Is the first service at 1000 kms?

Last but not the least go through your cars owners manual for further details and information on how to run - in.

Congratulations BTW. Have a great ownership.

I agree with a4anurag. The only concern I would have, in any car, is the Jaipur Delhi trip. A fair stretch of that is pretty horrible, still lots of construction going on, few stretches are ready.

We came back from Jaipur a few months ago on a Sunday evening. Big mistake, bumper to bumper truck traffic towards Delhi. Took us nearly seven hours.

Enjoy the new Fiat, nice car!

Jeroen

[a4anurag]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

I agree with a4anurag. The only concern I would have, in any car, is the Jaipur Delhi trip. A fair stretch of that is pretty horrible, still lots of construction going on, few stretches are ready.

We came back from Jaipur a few months ago on a Sunday evening. Big mistake, bumper to bumper truck traffic towards Delhi. Took us nearly seven hours.

Bumper-to-bumper traffic is the worst that a car can go through specially in its run-in period.

I have made it a point to avoid routes that could get me stuck in bumper-to-bumper traffic during the initial days taking the longer route to reach my destination. My thought is to keep the car moving steadily without lugging it and over-revving it.

Keep both the owners pocket as well as the car happy in the long-run.

[Rahul Rao]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

On fatigue, there is a very simple rule of thumb for metals; if it didn't break after 6 million cycles it is not going to break due to fatigue ever. Wear and tear might speed up the process. So an engine running at a couple of thousand of RPM will very quickly reach that 6 million cycles.
Much of today's mind set is borrowed from yesterday's wisdom, when machining quality, techniques and materials wasn't as good as it is today. BUT, THINGS HAVE CHANGED, and still yesterday's mind set remains. What does it actually hurt? Nothing. BUT, the ring seal won't be optimal.

I agree partially to this, but not completely. If engines came with purfect surfaces, then why do we need to top up a bit initially, and negligible later.
My Polo purchased in July 2012 needed 500ml topup before 8000 km, and was half way between max and min when I did first service at 15000.
Till 30000 service it was topped up by 500 ml at about 26000 Km, and remained near full till the 30000 change, now till the 45000 service it has been topped up just about 250ml.

Surfaces may be much closer to perfect now, as compared to yester years, but they are not absolutely perfect still.

Rahul

[saket77]

Originally Posted by Rahul Rao

I agree partially to this, but not completely. If engines came with purfect surfaces, then why do we need to top up a bit initially, and negligible later.
My Polo purchased in July 2012 needed 500ml topup before 8000 km, and was half way between max and min when I did first service at 15000.
Till 30000 service it was topped up by 500 ml at about 26000 Km, and remained near full till the 30000 change, now till the 45000 service it has been topped up just about 250ml.

Surfaces may be much closer to perfect now, as compared to yester years, but they are not absolutely perfect still.

But not all cars show this trait. Mostly VAGs have this drinking habit during the first few thousand kilometers but I have not heard any Maruti or Hyundai or a Honda having this issue. Not saying that the engines by VAG are inferior to any of them, but the root cause may be different. Though, would like to know why VAGs consume oil during initial months. Also, have read that engines in Polo/Vento have a 'blow-by' tendency from the dipstick hole which VW terms as normal. In fact, that would be a sign of some serious issue in case of some other cars.

[a4anurag]

Originally Posted by Rahul Rao

I agree partially to this, but not completely. If engines came with purfect surfaces, then why do we need to top up a bit initially, and negligible later.

In my experience this seems to be something particular to VW cars as I have never seem /done top up for my car's.

All I have done is change it at 1K, 10K, 20K and so on.

We have owned Maruti's and Honda's too but never experienced such engine oil driving habits.

Originally Posted by saket77

But not all cars show this trait. Mostly VAGs have this drinking habit during the first few thousand kilometers but I have not heard any Maruti or Hyundai or a Honda

+1.

[techiecal]

VAG engines are known to burn oil all over the world. They are also nicknamed oil burners. In fact in USA VW admits a Quart /1000 miles is normal! Dealers are even known to hand over some oil with deliveries stating - you might need it. The internet is chock full of customers claiming that their old cars used less oil than their new VAG cars do now.
Apart from this issue, most of us are happy with the reliability of VAG engines.Maybe VAG engines are extra lubricated and that is the reason for their super smoothness.

[Jeroen]

I don't want to make it more complicated than it already is, but the notion that if your dipstick level remains the same, your engine doesn't use oil is incorrect.

All engines use some oil. As oil is being used, there are two components that are being added. All the dirt and contamination your oil picks up adds to the total volume! Also, in small quantities your oil is likely to have absorbed some water contents, mainly due to condensation inside the engine.

If your engine did not any oil, over time the level would actually increase!

Jeroen

[techiecal]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

I don't want to make it more complicated than it already is, but the notion that if your dipstick level remains the same, your engine doesn't use oil is incorrect.

All engines use some oil. As oil is being used, there are two components that are being added. All the dirt and contamination your oil picks up adds to the total volume! Also, in small quantities your oil is likely to have absorbed some water contents, mainly due to condensation inside the engine.

If your engine did not any oil, over time the level would actually increase!

Jeroen

I do not believe that the engine oil can have so much dirt and contamination that you would get any noticeable increase in oil levels. Levels may increase due to condensation and even this would evaporate after the engine warms up.
Sometimes coolant leaks and fuel could raise the levels but these are serious faults and must be looked into immediately.

[Rahul Rao]

When I worked in truck refrigeration and bus air-conditioning field in the late 90's I had seen that some buses added oil, and the oil also thinned, according to mechanics it was a sign of worn compression rings combined with good oil scraper ring.
Older Perkins engines with 5 rings instead of 3 were also known for this.

[petrolhead_neel]

Hello Gurus,
A newbie question. We are first time car owners, so experience related to cars is almost ZERO.

We picked our Ford Classic 1.6 Titanium last week. She has covered approx. 200 kms. Every time brake is applied a bit hard(say, to bring the car to a stop), there is a sound coming. I hope this is nothing because the brakes haven't completed their run-in.

Anything to worry? Thanks in advance.

[techiecal]

Originally Posted by petrolhead_neel

Hello Gurus,
A newbie question. We are first time car owners, so experience related to cars is almost ZERO.

We picked our Ford Classic 1.6 Titanium last week. She has covered approx. 200 kms. Every time brake is applied a bit hard(say, to bring the car to a stop), there is a sound coming. I hope this is nothing because the brakes haven't completed their run-in.

Anything to worry? Thanks in advance.

I too picked up my Classic last Sep 14. Welcome to the club!
What sort of noise are you hearing? Is it a rubbing noise or a thud?