[Julian UK]

Originally Posted by speedy

Karl the 8 litre of Mr. Bhogilal is not a chop top. i wonder what gave you that idea.

I think he's right Speedy, the original body was a A Mulliner Saloon.
The factory records say so in Micheal Hay's book "Bentley The Vintage years" and here is the car's data from the Vintage Bentley register.





I think the RR Boat tail looks like an early 20/25? (The front cross member is further back)
Pranlal’s 20/25 GLZ 17 Sedanca de Ville is a Travencore car.

[karlosdeville]

Thank you Julian.

The same 2 cars side by side are visible in the last picture of this post. The style of the car immedeately tells us it has been modified, if not chopped.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/933595-post151.html

Mustangman, thanks for pointing out if I have my facts wrong. Can you tell us more?

[travancore]

Originally Posted by karlosdeville

It looks like Pranlal's 8 litre chop top.

Tranvancore, I believe the boat tail is an ex Travencore car, (!) let me confirm. It is now blue in colour, was running a Desoto engine, though I believe an original engine had been sourced from the UK.

How much I wish that were true - please post some pictures of the original if you can get them, would love to see it!

The only other Travancore RR I know of, is the Bhogilal 20/25 (or 25/30)

[speedy]

As far as my fathers knowledge goes the car was not a chop top but a sports tourer. it had a top just for name sake and was meant to be driven without one. there was another 8 litre belonging to Ronnie Khan with the same body style. this car was bought as it is no modification from Mr.Bhogilal.

[Steve Stuckey]

Originally Posted by travancore

Steve, really sorry to see such a glorious series come to an end!

As a parting gesture, could we request you to also do a masterpiece on the Rajpipla PIII (3BU-198), even though the car may only have been used at his Windsor home ?

Also, 3BT-121 has been cited on the Web as being an ex-Baroda car (currently with Vale Weddings in London). Did the Gaekwad own this car at some point ?

It's OK - there are two more to come - including 3BU198. 3BT121 has NEVER been in India. I know its total history; the current owner is the son of the second owner.

[travancore]

Originally Posted by travancore

In case anyone is interested, the ex-Kashmir RR PI (17EX) goes on auction Aug 15th!

Courtesy: Bonhams & Butterfields
Quail Lodge, A Sale of Exceptional Motorcars and Automobilia, 15 Aug 2008 Quail Lodge Resort and Golf Club, Carmel, California Lot No: 357*

The ex-Maharaja Bahador of Jammu and Kashmir - Streamlined Experimental
1928 Rolls-Royce Phantom I Torpedo
Coachwork by Jarvis of Wimbledon
Registration no. CH-7763 Chassis no. 17EX Engine no. 25EX

There are lots of detail pictures at the Bonhams website. Attaching a few, including some taken in India (?)




:

[DKG]

Thanks Speedy for sharing some lovely pictures from your collection.

[karlosdeville]

Originally Posted by speedy

Also a 1960 S1 or S2 Rolls Royce.

Any idea where this picture was taken? It looks more like Pakistan to me, looking at the surrounding cars plus these Rolls were quite popular there.

[67Bug]

Originally Posted by speedy

As far as my fathers knowledge goes the car was not a chop top but a sports tourer. it had a top just for name sake and was meant to be driven without one. there was another 8 litre belonging to Ronnie Khan with the same body style. this car was bought as it is no modification from Mr.Bhogilal.

This picture seems to be from Mr. Bhogilal's castle at "Dastok" the background says so. Karlos was that you question ??

[DKG]

Originally Posted by karlosdeville

Any idea where this picture was taken? It looks more like Pakistan to me, looking at the surrounding cars plus these Rolls were quite popular there.

Many many years ago, I think in the seventies when Mr. Sanjeeva Reddy was the President and as is custom would shift to Hyderabad for a season, I once saw him using a grey Silver Cloud II or III. Mr. Bhogilal has a similar car.

I prefer the SC I's with the single lamp instead of the pair.

[Steve Stuckey]

Now this fabulous Phantom III did not spend much time in India, but it has very strong Indian connections. I have actually read the India Office file in London about the car, so its story will be in a slightly different format than all the others I have posted.

On 9 February 1939 the Minister at the British Legation in Kabul, Afghanistan wrote to the Viceroy's office in New Delhi, suggesting that the British give the young King Zahir Shah a Rolls-Royce for his birthday in October (given that his dynasty would have been in power for 10 years then and he would be 25). The Minister pointed out that the Italians, Germans, Japanese and Russians had already given gifts, the Germans a Mercedes 2-seater, and the official cars were Buicks. In March the Viceroy's office wrote to London saying they supported the idea. In July 1939 King Zahir Shah's staff wrote to London to say that the King would be pleased (who wouldn't!), as he was a keen motorist.

The office of the Indian High Commissioner in London wrote to RR in August as king if they had a Phantom III, and RR said all they could provide was a standard limousine. The very clever King of Afghanistan told the British he would like a 2-4 seater cabriolet, with a nickely plated body and NO pigskin upholstery (the Legation in Kabul mentioned that the King had returned the French gift of a Hispano-Suiza with French coachwork as the upholstery was in pigskin!).

RR told the Indians (who had been forced by London to pay the whole amount for the car) that they could not deliver a car by October. New Delhi and the British Government had agreed that RR not be told who the car was for, so RR set up a car for use in India, but on bad roads at reasonably high speeds. RR assumed that it was for the Viceroy himself.

Anyway, on 28 September 1939 (25 days after Britain had gone to war with Germany) chassis 3DL200 left Derby, fitted with engine W28H and E-rake steering. On 4 October the chassis was delivered to Park Ward, and they built a drophead coupe to drawing 13704 (I have a copy of the drawing) and with body number 4633. What is amazing about this car is that it was finished completely in polished aluminium, after Park Ward got special permission to use this much aluminium in wartime. All parts of the body that were not in chrome-plate were finished in this metal, including the two spare wheel covers and the wheel discs.The upholstery was in silver crushed-grain leather, and the hood was in grey duckcloth; there was a tonneau cover that fitted behind the rear seats; the woodwork was in teak. All instruments were in both Imperial and metric measures. There were four leather-covered suitcases fitted in the boot, and even these were sprayed silver. A radio was fitted but after delivery the King complained that the radio did not receive shortwave; in March 1940 RR sourced such a radio adaptor from GE in the USA. The body cost over 923 pounds, and the car was completed on 29 November 1939. The total cost of the car to the Indian Government was 2,343 pounds.

On 9 December 1939 the car was shipped to Karachi aboard the ss "Warfield", arriving there on 25 January 1940. The whole body of the car had been covered in petroleum jelly to protect it during the voyage, and RR provided a special kind of powder to remove the jelly when the car arrived in Kabul.

In mid-February the car in its crate arrived in Peshawar, but trucks could not proceed through the passes until late March. On 15 April the car was presented to the King, along with a personal letter from King George of Britain, at Dilkusha Palace. The new owner was King al-Mutawakkil ala Allah Muhammed Zahir Shah III (15 October 1914 - 23 July 2007 - yes, he died only two years ago); he had succeeded his father on 8 November 1933 and was deposed in a coup on 17 July 1973, when he went into exile in Italy.

His Phantom III, along with various other Royal cars, stayed in the Royal garage in Kabul until 1982, when a UNESCO project built a new shed to protect them. But, when the Taliban took Kabul they plundered all the royal palaces and all the museums, and destroyed the cars. By 1999 all the aluminium from 3DL200 had been melted down to make cutlery (!!) and the cylinder block was being used as an anvil. So, this fabulous car became a victim of war.

I am lucky enough to own copies of these original Park Ward photos of the car when new, and there is also a photo of the remains of the car in 1999.

[karlosdeville]

Originally Posted by karlosdeville

Any idea where this picture was taken? It looks more like Pakistan to me, looking at the surrounding cars plus these Rolls were quite popular there.

Originally Posted by DKG

Many many years ago, I think in the seventies when Mr. Sanjeeva Reddy was the President and as is custom would shift to Hyderabad for a season, I once saw him using a grey Silver Cloud II or III. Mr. Bhogilal has a similar car.

On closer inspection I see a tag marked 91. Perhaps this was a customs auction holding or something like that.

[MustangMan]

Originally Posted by karlosdeville

Mustangman, thanks for pointing out if I have my facts wrong. Can you tell us more?

The Maroon one is a 20/25 made by Manvendra Singh Barwani some 20 yrs back, its still with the owner. The blue one is a phantom made a few years back again by MS Barwani. It belongs to a prominent person in Mumbai. The blue one does not have a Rolls Royce engine, as you rightly said. Don't know about the new engine. The 20/25 has its original engine.

[speedy]

Originally Posted by karlosdeville

Any idea where this picture was taken? It looks more like Pakistan to me, looking at the surrounding cars plus these Rolls were quite popular there.

the picture was taken in Delhi at the STC. my father had gone to see and probably buy the car. it got picked up by someone else.

Originally Posted by 67Bug

This picture seems to be from Mr. Bhogilal's castle at "Dastok" the background says so. Karlos was that you question ??

Daskot is not a castle it is a Bunglow. Karl is refering to another picture.

[Julian UK]

Wonderful photos Speedy, keep scanning and posting your photos, they are very valuable photos of very interesting cars at different stages of their life spans, many enthusiasts-historians are appreciating this website's window revealing India's motoring heritage. Great stuff!

It is so sad that the majority of exported India cars are just sold and resold for profit in the auctions in the west, your family have saved so many cars to be where they should be, in India along with their history, they belong in India rather than just money makers with exotic histories in western marketplaces.

It does help when they can be authenticated with the extensive records and documents that do exist with the respective clubs and factory records otherwise they just become vague and uncertain, only refered to as "the blue one" etc......I am not an expert nor have ever claimed to be but I hope I and others can learn more from our elders and those who have spent decades researching these cars, some being present on this forum, the depths of the skills of car identification are vast and require great devotion and perception.....