[Maverick5490]

Originally Posted by SDP

Maverick, the attack did start when the RR stopped for the first time.
But front-LHS is not the tyre that the eye-witness is talking about.
Reattaching the picture of the RR after the attack:
Attachment 1150046

There is no tyre on the front-right wheel and I don't believe it came off on its own as a consequence of the bikers just staring at the RR.

Ok! Just found a pic showing the LHS of the Rover and the tire is intact, my bad!

[supremeBaleno]

Even ignoring the other dismeanours of the bikers unrelated to the SUV-incident, it is pretty much clear from the video (thank God for that) that the herd of bikers have behaved like 3rd rate thugs terrorizing a family with a small kid and any sane person (except some here who believe that the situation could have instead been defused by stopping and sermonizing to the thugs) would have done what the SUV guy did.

[pgsagar]

What was the biker thinking braking in front of that 3 ton monster? Did he have suicide on mind? This biker is solely responsible for starting this mayhem. What Lien did does not look right but I am sure he did this out of panic. No one in his right senses would drive over a bunch of bikers deliberatley no matter how big a vehicle he is driving.

[E63]

Originally Posted by suhaas307

What would you do if you find yourself in a similar situation? Remember, you are driving a SUV and your wife and child are passengers. You hit a biker who brake-checked you and suddenly, your car was surrounded by 30-40 knife-wielding people. The key word here is 'people', NOT 'bikers'.

Like I said, if I were in USA, I would lock the RR from inside, call 911, and wait.

I would not, run over a biker, no matter what the scenario.
And I dont get how he felt threatened.
Because clearly, the glass was shattered after the moron forgot to brake and rear-ended the biker, and the proceeded to run over another.

Originally Posted by amit

That's not what various news reports and versions are saying. You are saying the biker's were waiting by the side of the road and had called 911? Where are the details of those call records? The authorities have confirmed that Lien did call 911 but none of the biker's did. And who slashed the tyres of the SUV? I don't know why you are under the impression that the biker's waited at the side and the SUV suddenly without provocation decided to run them over! If what you say is right and the biker's were parked at the side how did they get run over?

They did not. And they should have.
I said the SUV guy called 911, but did not have the patience to actually wait for the response.

And as the bikers parked, isnt it obvious that they were all standing there when the guy decided that he has the bigger vehicle, so he has a right to way.


And to all those who say the bikers slashed the tyres, give me evidence of them doing so.
I dont see it in the video, and I dont think a kitchen knife can achieve that.
Maybe the tyre got burst going over the bike's fairing.


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Originally Posted by pgsagar

What was the biker thinking braking in front of that 3 ton monster? Did he have suicide on mind?

That is the weirdest thing I've heard all my life.

So now, whem I'm on a bike, I will not overtake buses and trucks, because I've got suicide on my mind.

[phamilyman]

Originally Posted by jraj

Wow, seriously???

When the bikers are causing that kind of damage to the RR, their only intention is to harm the passengers inside and that includes a lady and a 2 year old kid.

Thats how everyone sees it and thats how even NYPD saw it.How difficult is it to understand that?

I refuse to be drawn into a word-smithing game. Let me quote reputed news articles instead to refute your assertion (emphasis mine)?

Here is details from Huffington Post (same on most other news sites) on the offduty cop who was arrested for beating on the car's rear windscreen (thus proving an intention to harm the baby, in YOUR eyes, right?) -

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/10/...-due-in-court/
Here is what he did:

video evidence showing him punching an already damaged back window, then twice kicking the side of the SUV before leaving the scene

Here's what he's been charged with:

riot and criminal mischief charges

Where did you just read that the bikers attacking the SUV was equal to attacking the child (something that is completely heinous and intolerable - but something that did not happen as per most accounts).

I'm not saying any of what the bikers did was good - just saying we should not get carried away and let our righteous indignation make us assume something happened which did not happen. Isnt this thread already hot enough?

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

Even ignoring the other dismeanours of the bikers unrelated to the SUV-incident, it is pretty much clear from the video (thank God for that) that the herd of bikers have behaved like 3rd rate thugs terrorizing a family with a small kid and any sane person (except some here who believe that the situation could have instead been defused by stopping and sermonizing to the thugs) would have done what the SUV guy did.

Oh wait, we're talking about the bikers' behavior post-mowing Mieses to justify Lien mowing Mieses down? Like I have said, the video around second 27, just after the time Cruz goes down does not show the bikers going on a violent spree (atleast its not abundantly clear from the video). But its the same old story in this pointless thread with clear hard positions that no one will budge from. On such moral threads - no amount of internet discussion will ever lead to ANY conclusion.

[amitoj]

Originally Posted by jraj

When the bikers are causing that kind of damage to the RR, their only intention is to harm the passengers inside and that includes a lady and a 2 year old kid.

Thats how everyone sees it and thats how even NYPD saw it.How difficult is it to understand that?

Originally Posted by phamilyman

Where did you just read that the bikers attacking the SUV was equal to attacking the child (something that is completely heinous and intolerable - but something that did not happen as per most accounts).

Cruz has been charged with reckless endangerment, reckless driving and endangering the welfare of a child for his actions on the road

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013...ver-chase?lite

Although it is not the same as "attacking" the child, the law enforcement authorities did interpret Cruz's actions as something that could have hurt the child. In US, you can go to jail for even locking up your kids unattended in a car!! So, we can't apply our thought process of "no harm, no foul" here.

There was a post in the Bad Drivers thread a few days back about an Opel Astra being driven at around 70 kmph, with a child standing on the shoulders of an unbuckled woman and jutting out of the sun roof of the car. Such action in US will send the parents to jail and the child to a foster home!! I am only mentioning this to highlight that the authorities here are quite sensitive to any report of an action that can hurt a child.

[phamilyman]

Originally Posted by amitoj

Cruz has been charged with reckless endangerment, reckless driving and endangering the welfare of a child for his actions on the road

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013...ver-chase?lite

Although it is not the same as "attacking" the child, the law enforcement authorities did interpret Cruz's actions as something that could have hurt the child. In US, you can go to jail for even locking up your kids unattended in a car!! So, we can't apply our thought process of "no harm, no foul" here.

There was a post in the Bad Drivers thread a few days back about an Opel Astra being driven at around 70 kmph, with a child standing on the shoulders of an unbuckled woman and jutting out of the sun roof of the car. Such action in US will send the parents to jail and the child to a foster home!! I am only mentioning this to highlight that the authorities here are quite sensitive to any report of an action that can hurt a child.

Correct - Cruz's actions brought on an accident which could've jeopardized the child's safety. No two ways on that. Agree fully.

But to stretch attack on the SUV to attack on the child is not correct IMHO. Here are two examples from page 10.

Originally Posted by AbhishekB86

Leave all the above aside and explain to me how one dares to try to break the rear window where a 2 year old toddler is seated? If you can't call grown up men attacking a 2 year child scums, I really wonder where you can appropriately use that term.

Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao

Even assuming you're right about the SUV driver, how do you justify a bunch of adults attacking a 2-year old?

[SDP]

Originally Posted by E63

...And to all those who say the bikers slashed the tyres, give me evidence of them doing so.
I dont see it in the video, and I dont think a kitchen knife can achieve that.
Maybe the tyre got burst going over the bike's fairing.
...

Originally Posted by phamilyman

... Like I have said, the video around second 27, just after the time Cruz goes down does not show the bikers going on a violent spree (atleast its not abundantly clear from the video)....

You guys are right, the original video is not very clear about what exactly happened once the RR bumped Cruz's bike and stopped till when he decided to take off.

Reposting a picture with the front right wheel highlighted in red rectangles. This is the pic taken when Lien was pulled out and was being beaten on the road. Please note that there is no tyre on the wheel at that moment.


The entire journey from the moment the RR took off till the start of the final attack is on the original video. So I believe whatever happened to the tyre happened when the RR stopped for the first time and was surrounded by the bikers.

Yes, the tyre going bust might have happened when the vehicle ran over the bikes, but I genuinely doubt that. Let the police investigate the vehicle and the tyre (if they found it) to figure out whether it was slashed.

[AbhishekB86]

Originally Posted by phamilyman

Correct - Cruz's actions brought on an accident which could've jeopardized the child's safety. No two ways on that. Agree fully.

But to stretch attack on the SUV to attack on the child is not correct IMHO. Here are two examples from page 10.

Well the rear windshield was cracked wasn't it? Just because the kid wasn't hurt doesn't mean you can completely rule that out.

Also this I am assuming this (may be wrong) is only about Cruz. What about Chance and others who were punching away at the windows? Later in the footage there is a bulky guy who punches thrice on the rear window.

.

[Maverick5490]

Originally Posted by SDP

You guys are right, the original video is not very clear about what exactly happened once the RR bumped Cruz's bike and stopped till when he decided to take off.

Yes, the tyre going bust might have happened when the vehicle ran over the bikes, but I genuinely doubt that. Let the police investigate the vehicle and the tyre (if they found it) to figure out whether it was slashed.

Also the pic shows a guy opening the rear door, the kid could be sitting on that side!

[phamilyman]

Originally Posted by AbhishekB86

Well the rear windshield was cracked wasn't it? Just because the kid wasn't hurt doesn't mean you can completely rule that out.

Also this I am assuming this (may be wrong) is only about Cruz. What about Chance and others who were punching away at the windows? Later in the footage there is a bulky guy who punches thrice on the rear window. Also in the pictures posted the rear window is cracked.

.

There is a subtle but (to MY mind) important difference between:

• A bunch of jerks/bullies going on a mob rampage against an SUV in a rage (because the SUV driver ran over one of them)
• Murderous monsters who are out to kill a little defenceless baby!

Like I said, we should not get carried away in righteous indignation. Just that.


Plus man - let's apply a common sense test here. There were a lot of bystanders for the final beating (recall the ipad video?).



IF the baby would have been so much as touched - do you really think the NYPD would have hesitated even ONE second before locking away any such person (and rightfully so) for as long as the law would permit?


Since that HASN'T HAPPENED - we can reasonably conclude that the rest of the ugly incident aside - these jerks did NOT attack the child for sure. Can we?

[E63]

Originally Posted by amitoj

Cruz has been charged with reckless endangerment, reckless driving and endangering the welfare of a child for his actions on the road

Charged =/= guilty

If I punch you, the police will charge me with everything, assault, battery, rioting, hell even attempt to murder.
The police do this because the F.I.R. cant be altered.
So they dont want to miss out on something which may emerge later.

The charges are then later dropped after preliminary investigation, and some during the trial.
It is only some of the charges on which you are tried.

[AbhishekB86]

Originally Posted by phamilyman

There is a subtle but (to MY mind) important difference between:

• A bunch of jerks/bullies going on a mob rampage against an SUV in a rage (because the SUV driver ran over one of them)
• Murderous monsters who are out to kill a little defenceless baby!

Like I said, we should not get carried away in righteous indignation. Just that.


Plus man - let's apply a common sense test here. There were a lot of bystanders for the final beating (recall the ipad video?).



IF the baby would have been so much as touched - do you really think the NYPD would have hesitated even ONE second before locking away any such person (and rightfully so) for as long as the law would permit?


Since that HASN'T HAPPENED - we can reasonably conclude that the rest of the ugly incident aside - these jerks did NOT attack the child for sure. Can we?

I agree with your view with regards to how people (NYPD, by-standers)would have responded. I will however state that there was an attempt made to crack the windows as per the footage (recall the cop punching the rear window) so he might not be trying to attack the child but he did put his safety in jeopardy.

Also, I would like to thank you for putting forth an opinion in such a mature manner.

[supremeBaleno]

Originally Posted by E63

Like I said, if I were in USA, I would lock the RR from inside, call 911, and wait.

How safe is a locked car, when the weakest part is the glass windows ? And what would you have done if they broke the windows (an easy job) and proceed to harm you and your family ? Still wait for 911 response ?

Originally Posted by E63

That is the weirdest thing I've heard all my life. So now, when I'm on a bike, I will not overtake buses and trucks, because I've got suicide on my mind.

Overtaking is not the issue here, the moron was without any valid reason braking infront of a car, which is obviously a wrong place to put oneself in - hopefully he learnt from this and won't repeat it.

Originally Posted by phamilyman

Oh wait, we're talking about the bikers' behavior post-mowing Mieses to justify Lien mowing Mieses down? Like I have said, the video around second 27, just after the time Cruz goes down does not show the bikers going on a violent spree (atleast its not abundantly clear from the video).

Not just after mowing Mieses - but even before where they surround the car obviously not with a good intention.

[pjbiju]

Originally Posted by phamilyman

...
Where did you just read that the bikers attacking the SUV was equal to attacking the child (something that is completely heinous and intolerable - but something that did not happen as per most accounts).
...

The child was only 2 years old. Do you think the child was old enough to understand that these people were only attacking the car and will do him/her no harm? What about the mental trauma/shock that the child has suffered. It may remain with this child for life. Isn't that damage enough?