[Vasuki]

Originally Posted by ebonho

People have been riding motorcycles for over a century without silicone plugs in their ears.

Those who feel the need to use them can use them without feeling the need to rationalize on the backs of generations of bikers who have not and never will.

I know many old bikers. Most of them rallyists and racers.

None of them use hearing aids.

None of them also got ran over from behind.

Which is why they are old bikers.

Cheers, Doc

So according to above logic, There are generations of people who have not used seat belts, helmets, riding gears and have had full life without loss of limb, or other body parts. So no need of seat belts, riding gers, hetmets etc.; right?

Nobody is trying to rationalize a point, if you want comfort wear it. Nobody is forcing anyone.

Why are you hell bend on rationalizing the thought that those who use earplugs get ran over from behind? You have mentioned this in a couple of posts.

I'm also nearing fifty and if one thing gives me comfort without compromising on safety, I would definitely prefer that.

Peace out. Thanks.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by Vasuki

So according to above logic, There are generations of people who have not used seat belts, helmets, riding gears and have had full life without loss of limb, or other body parts. So need of seat belts, riding gers, hetmets etc.; right?

Nobody is trying to rationalize a point, if you want comfort wear it. Nobody is forcing anyone.

Why are you hell bend on rationalizing the thought that those who use earplugs get ran over from behind? You have mentioned this in a couple of posts.

I'm also nearing fifty and if one thing gives me comfort without compromising on safety, I would definitely prefer that.

Peace out. Thanks.

I'm putting forward my point that ear plugs are dangerous and why I would never wear them and millions of bikers around the world agree and never have and never will.

This is a forum to exchange views. Not just choose one line and parrot it without a difference of opinion.

Motorcycling is inherently risky on our roads without aping trends from the more civilized west and making it riskier.

If it's a choice between comfort and staying alive, the choice is pretty one sided. Not to mention that any prolonged exposure to sound like 12 hours plus in the saddle, being touted here as contributing to this so-called hearing loss (which no old biker I know suffers from - and each of them has more kilometres and years riding under their belt than most motorcycling groups collectively today), is not inherently comfortable to start with.

Cheers, Doc

[karanddd]

Originally Posted by ebonho

I'm putting forward my point that ear plugs are dangerous and why I would never wear them and millions of bikers around the world agree and never have and never will.

This is a forum to exchange views. Not just choose one line and parrot it without a difference of opinion.

Motorcycling is inherently risky on our roads without aping trends from the more civilized west and making it riskier.

If it's a choice between comfort and stating alive, the choice us pretty one sided. Not to mention that any prolonged exposure to sound like 12 hours plus in the saddle is not inherently comfortable to start with.

Cheers, Doc

I wonder how many of those millions ride on American freeways. In SW Texas and Iowa, two places I've lived in, wind speeds can be extremely high and the noise inside a helmet going at 80 odd mph on a freeway is insane, unbearably deafening without earplugs. At least amongst people my age, I don't know anyone here (in Houston) who rides without earplugs. In fact people borrow or buy new ones if they can't find theirs before a ride. There's no chance you'd hear any kind of vehicle over the wind noise if you're not wearing earplugs, and I don't think listening to 100 db wind makes you any safer.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by karanddd

I wonder how many of those millions ride on American freeways. In SW Texas and Iowa, two places I've lived in, wind speeds can be extremely high and the noise inside a helmet going at 80 odd mph on a freeway is insane, unbearably deafening without earplugs. At least amongst people my age, I don't know anyone here (in Houston) who rides without earplugs. In fact people borrow or buy new ones if they can't find theirs before a ride. There's no chance you'd hear any kind of vehicle over the wind noise if you're not wearing earplugs, and I don't think listening to 100 db wind makes you any safer.

Did the wind on these American freeways start recently and were absent for the last 100 years of motorcycling?

Since when have American riders been using these earplugs on American freeways?

And are these winds and freeways found only in America (or more specifically SW Texas and Iowa)?

Equating earplugs to helmets and seatbelts is a very desperate stretch of an argument in my opinion. Not saying that it was you who made it.

Cheers, Doc

P.S. Being an India born, brought up and living and riding in India, I had to Google what 80 mph was ... it's not even 130 kph.

[Prashant1286]

Originally Posted by swiftnfurious

I don't know why everyone jumps the gun on the forum in the guise of safe driving offlate. Anyone who has used a ear plug would know it doesn't make the rider feel like sitting in a sound proof chamber ! You bl**dy hear everything thing but probably at a 50% volume than normal.

And for those who don't know, the high wind noise can lead to deafness over time - some safety measures are required to control the damage.

I beg to disagree with you on two counts swiftnfurious.

First is that I don't think that earplugs make the rider feel like sitting in a sound proof chamber. The only point that I was deliberating upon was that why I never felt the need for one! I guess the perceived decibels of sound differ from person to person and hence, the threshold of comfort.

The second, I think it's an exaggeration that high wind noise can cause deafness overtime. The decibels inside a helmet, though high enough, are still well below the threshold of damaging intensity. Also, a long ride is often a monthly affair, at best weekly. Hence, the frequency of the exposure is also not too regular. But this is my humble opinion based on limited reading and experience. I welcome any correction of thoughts, if necessary.

Originally Posted by ebonho

https://www.velominati.com/

Get fit. Stay alive.

Cheers, Doc

Thanks ebonho. That link was a nice read. I am new to bicycles and can learn a thing or two from you.

Originally Posted by karanddd

I wonder how many of those millions ride on American freeways.

karanddd I would not equate the freeways of USA with the highways of India. The dynamics of riding there are different. Also, there are more number of people on Indian highways who ride/ drive in a funny manner. Hence, I think more concentration is required on our highways. But then, if a rider is okay with earplugs here, it's fine. Every man for himself!

Originally Posted by Vasuki

Don't kid brother, your bike is not humble as you would say. My ride buddy has the same duke 390 and he is the fastest in our group.

Normally we cover 700 to 900 km in a day and there are instances where we rode 1200+, which means more than 14 to 15hrs on the saddle. During such stints many variables lead to fatigue and wind noise is one of them. As pointed out in the article mentioned by GustyGibbion, you really don't know what you are missing unless you try it out.

Thanks Vasuki!

The bike is only a getaway for me. I have never ridden >600 kms in a day so maybe I can not relate to the fatigue after 14 to 15 hours of riding. That said, I did try the disposable ones on one ride and didn't like the experience.

The wind noise is actually an aerodynamic byproduct due to the turbulence caused in the airflow. This would depend upon the shape, size, aspect and speed. The things which increase this turbulence - crosswinds and airflow deflected by windshield on a rider's helmet instead of above it- are likely to increase this noise.

Since you have a much superior bike and a much better helmet, maybe a taller windscreen can solve your problem in the long run. Try adjusting it or getting a larger one in case the airflow is being deflected onto your helmet instead of over it.

@All: Ride safe brothers. Many more happy miles!

[gthang]

What you ride and how you ride are personal choices that the freedom of Motorcycling gives you.

But these determine your safety levels as well. If three bikers, one on KTM 390, another on Harley with Screaming Eagle exhaust, and one on BMW S1000RR were to go on the same ride, would all three need earplugs, or just one or none. Would that change if they rode flat out or breezily?

Cheers

Ride Safe

[TRR]

Originally Posted by ebonho

Did the wind on these American freeways start recently and were absent for the last 100 years of motorcycling?

Since when have American riders been using these earplugs on American freeways?

And are these winds and freeways found only in America (or more specifically SW Texas and Iowa)?

Equating earplugs to helmets and seatbelts is a very desperate stretch of an argument in my opinion. Not saying that it was you who made it.

With utmost respect, I don't get your arguments. Are we supposed to continue living the "old ways" like they did 100 years ago? Can research and development of rider aids not benefit us at all going forward? Just because ABS wasn't invented 100 years ago, does that mean that I should "harden up" and keep the ABS on my bike switched off at all times?

These ear plugs do not block out ALL sound. Not sure why you think someone will run bikers over from behind just because they are wearing these ear plugs. I wear ear plugs on my rides, both inside and outside the city. I can even hear people talking next to me, just that its a little dimmed out. Now that I have gotten used to it, I can definitely say that I can hear relevant sounds a lot better than without the earplugs, without that annoying boom of wind noise. I can hear vehicles approaching me from behind as well on the highways, with the wind noise (wind noise alone) being muted out a lot more than before. Besides, I also have rear view mirrors to help me be aware of what's coming up behind. Any attentive rider worth their salt knows its a death sentence to only rely on your ears to know what's coming up behind you.

Originally Posted by ebonho

As for fatigue, concentration, headaches, etc etc etc , Velominati Rule #5 for cyclists holds equally true here

https://www.velominati.com/

Get fit. Stay alive.

Cheers, Doc

I'm sorry and I don't mean to be offensive in the slightest, but what's up with this gung-ho toxic masculinity of "harden up"? I'm out motorcycling for leisure. Not to torture my body and ears and "to learn to live with the discomfort". These ear plugs are safe to wear and ride, especially when they have been made specifically for this purpose. Just like your "old riders and racers" who are doing just fine without ear plugs, I know multitude of riders who ride with ear plugs and haven't been "run over from behind". It's fair to put out your views on this forum, but to put anecdotal evidence as your sole reason for not advocating ear plugs is pointless. I can copy-paste multiple links of reputed institutions and motorcycle journalists (including Indian ones) advocating for the hearing loss and tinnitus caused by motorcycling at high speeds without noise protection, but I'm sure you can Google it yourself.

Originally Posted by ebonho

I do listen to music in the Safari or my Baleno though. Totally different dynamics and senses at play in a car with the windows rolled up.

The hypocrisy is palpable here. When you shouldn't wear ear plugs because you think there's a possibility that you might not notice a vehicle intent on "running you over", you shouldn't listen to music in your cars since there is always a possibility that you might not notice a vehicle coming up behind as well, with the music turned on. The possibility of being distracted by the music always exists, different "dynamics and senses" notwithstanding.

Originally Posted by Prashant1286

The second, I think it's an exaggeration that high wind noise can cause deafness overtime. The decibels inside a helmet, though high enough, are still well below the threshold of damaging intensity. Also, a long ride is often a monthly affair, at best weekly. Hence, the frequency of the exposure is also not too regular.

This is highly incorrect. Wind noise inside a helmet at high speeds is proven to be well above safe decibel levels. This is an old article, but its still relevant. Some relevant extracts if you don't want to read the whole thing -

A study by ISVR Consulting at the University of Southampton found that at speeds above 40mph, wind noise can exceed the noise of the motorcycle itself. By working with police riders, they discovered that bikers are exposed to anything from around 85dB at 40mph (64 kph) to 106dB at 70mph (110 kph). At 125mph (200 kph), noise levels reached 115dB.

If you only ride a scooter in the city and have a decent helmet, your hearing is unlikely to be damaged as 85dB can be safely endured for eight hours. But jump to 94dB (50mph (80 kph) on a ZX-12R) and your safe exposure time drops to around 1 hour.

Riding a BMW K100 at 70mph (110 kph) generates around 106dB – a level of noise that the Tinnitus Association says has a maximum exposure time of just three minutes and 45 seconds.

As seen, the high decibel levels aren't only at unmentionable speeds but are bang in the middle of a regular biker's cruising speeds. Doesn't matter whether its Indian wind or American wind or British wind. Driving at these speeds for sustained periods of time (yes, even on Indian highways) has a greater possibility of causing permanent hearing damage. I've driven at high speeds on my Duke 390 without the ear plugs and with the ear plugs. I have thankfully not sustained any hearing damage yet. So I'm not saying its a 100% hit rate of "drive at 100 kph without ear plugs = hearing damage". But I definitely prefer the ear plugs now and most definitely don't think that my attentiveness took any hit whatsoever. If you don't want to use the ear plugs, that's fine, totally up to you. But let those of us who want to use them, use them, without bringing up words like "harden up" (not saying that it was you who said it)

[karanddd]

Originally Posted by ebonho

Did the wind on these American freeways start recently and were absent for the last 100 years of motorcycling?

Since when have American riders been using these earplugs on American freeways?

And are these winds and freeways found only in America (or more specifically SW Texas and Iowa)?

Equating earplugs to helmets and seatbelts is a very desperate stretch of an argument in my opinion. Not saying that it was you who made it.

Cheers, Doc

P.S. Being an India born, brought up and living and riding in India, I had to Google what 80 mph was ... it's not even 130 kph.

This is completely besides the point, but roads in the US are not comparable to those in India. The geography of North America is such that in many places there are vast, unpeopled plains, with almost no structures or trees or buildings, which is partly responsible for the ferocious wind speeds on many interstate freeways. Land in India is different, more peopled and built upon, and offers far more resistance to wind.

Crosswinds from passing a large vehicle can sometimes lead to cars (& of course motorcycles too) being completely thrown off course, which is a known cause of automobile accidents here. To my knowledge, such a phenomenon is far less common in India, as there are hardly any instances of a truck going at 130 kmph and a car passing it, with prevailing strong cross winds.

And same goes for speed, here 120 or 130 kmph is a constant cruising speed, which in my experience isn't the case in most places (or anywhere) in India. When you are going at that speed more or less constantly for several hours with that volume of wind in your ears, it's very fatiguing (in my experience). And people accelerate to 180 odd kph often to pass or for fun where there don't seem speed detectors or police around. The noise at those speeds is too much for the naked ear.

I don't think ear plugs are for safety anyway, I totally get why someone may not want to use them, and I don't think that leads to any sort of road danger. It's a comfort thing. Many people attend loud concerts, stand near the speakers and don't wear earplugs, but many don't go to concerts without a pair in their ears. Tinnitus can happen due to prolonged exposure to very loud noise, and once it develops you can't get rid of it, there's no cure or anything. So better safe than sorry.

Ironically enough, for what it's worth, more often than not when I ride in India, I don't wear ear plugs. Thing is, I'm never really going over 100 anyway (blame my bike), so I feel the need much less. Same in Nepal, where again it's hard to even touch 80 due to the roads and conditions, so ear plugs feel superfluous.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by karanddd

This is completely besides the point, but roads in the US are not comparable to those in India. The geography of North America is such that in many places there are vast, unpeopled plains, with almost no structures or trees or buildings, which is partly responsible for the ferocious wind speeds on many interstate freeways. Land in India is different, more peopled and built upon, and offers far more resistance to wind.

80 mph is not fast nor is it an unheard of long distance speed for many of us here as well .... that was my point. I do approximately 10+ kmph more for pretty long stretches on 1000+ km days. Back to back.

I'm not trying to convert anyone here. Neither am I a cultist or an evangelist.

All big boys here. Riding bikes bought with their own money. Ditto for fuel.

For a very large population of bikers, admittedly of a certain vintage, a lot of this new fangled stuff is faddish, and not in a nice way.

Ride safe. Live long and prosper.

Cheers, Doc

[Prashant1286]

Originally Posted by TRR

This is highly incorrect. Wind noise inside a helmet at high speeds is proven to be well above safe decibel levels. This is an old article, but its still relevant.

As seen, the high decibel levels aren't only at unmentionable speeds but are bang in the middle of a regular biker's cruising speeds. Doesn't matter whether its Indian wind or American wind or British wind. Driving at these speeds for sustained periods of time (yes, even on Indian highways) has a greater possibility of causing permanent hearing damage.

Thanks for the informative article TRR. However, I happen to have a slightly different opinion.

This is an abstract from a medical journal which gives the permitted DAILY exposure to noise for workers employed in noisy environment. Do note that occasional exposure to noise upto a max ceiling of 140 dB does not harm hearing, unless repeated over long time. It's something like going to the Hard Rock Cafe occasionally.



The second thing I present to you is an article published in the Journal of Royal Society of Medicine. The link to the article is here and it has appropriate citations for reading further researches as well. The summary of the same is here:



Now, the point that I am trying to bring forth is that occasional exposure does not have much probability of hearing loss. It is people who do it daily as an occupational hazard, like police riders/ dispatch riders who often suffer from this loss.

Last point for consideration is this:



The automotive horns fall in the frequency of 200-500 Hz. Ambulance sirens have two tones - first at 650-750Hz and the second one at 900-1000Hz. These earplugs attenuate sound in these frequency ranges by 22-26 dB. Therefore, if an ambulance is at 25 meters, its sound shall be attenuated from 68 dB to 44 dB, which is akin to bird's chirp. In this I have not factored the 5-6 dB of attenuation that a average helmet also provides.

Lastly, I may be wrong but that's my understanding as I work in an environment which has got much more noise. Peace!

PS: I am not trying to dissuade anyone from using earplugs. I am only saying it's not for me. Also, I do not subscribe to the idea that leisure riding will cause hearing loss. That's all

@Mods: Sorry for taking the thread a bit OT.

[headers]

Originally Posted by aargee

The rational analogy seems right (even as I type this), but, I hardly get to hear the music in car!! Yes, sometimes, I can't even hear what people in my car speak, but those are at times.

I don't know why, I cannot seem to enjoy music & ride unlike music & driving. Nothing, calms me, pleases me on road, satisfies me, LIKE A GOOD LONG RIDE!!

Boss, this analogy is not right in my opinion having driven and ridden with music on the highways. I don't do it nowadays.

Either way, the point I was mentioning is the lack of focus / attention and as along as one is focussed, then don't see an issue

Im being India specific as riding abroad is completely different than riding here. Now that we've got super bikes that are fast.

I'd always recommend a proper riding gear which could mean life and death.

[aargee]

Originally Posted by headers

Boss, this analogy is not right in my opinion

Not just in your opinion sir, if you read my entire post, I too conveyed the same.

[deepfreak15]

@Mods, reading the initial post I think this should have been classified under the "Riding gear" thread where it rightly falls and might have moved the discussion into a different tangent where each one gives an honest review of the different ear plugs they use. Instead it has turned into a pissing contest with one faction claiming ear plugs are dangerous and the other group giving their views on the benefits they get from using them. Can you kindly move this thread to the right section so we can stick to the topic "Feedback on a particular product(s)" and not " Earplugs are dangerous because I have lived so long without them"

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by Prashant1286

Now, the point that I am trying to bring forth is that occasional exposure does not have much probability of hearing loss. It is people who do it daily as an occupational hazard, like police riders/ dispatch riders who often suffer from this loss.

This point is the key point. How long and how often. It's there in most peer reviewed studies, but if at all present gets relegated to a fine print footnote in the millions of articles (from industry and lay gurus) extolling the virtues of ear plugs and how without them you're going to go deaf.

Nevermind the living proof to the contrary that for 100 years of motorcycling history somehow it's been difficult to actually find deaf old riders.

As I said, if you want to wear them, wear them. But say you're wearing them because you cannot handle the sound and maybe you're not fit enough and therefore are getting fatigued on long rides.

Don't scaremonger using selective interpretation of data. Especially in something that many seriously believe is a risk to safe riding. The old timers will anyways not get swayed by internet gyaan. But maybe noobs will. And that's not nice.

Cheers, Doc

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Mod Note: Both sides have made their stand clear and there is enough information above for people to take an informed decision for themselves. Let's not take the thread offtopic!

Any further posts will be deleted. Please stick to product reviews and recommendations. Thanks.