[vina]

We have a lively thread going here http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...-variants.html and things keep coming back to cost.

My views (too many posts from me I guess) can be gleaned there but there is some cost-benefit thing going on.

Cutting to the chase I have a few (hypothetical) question -

1. assuming you had a car that cost between 5L and 10L how much would you pay to install an off-market collision avoidance system?
   1. • The system will protect you by applying breaks (if you don't apply those) in case it suddenly detects an obstacle while driving forward (at reasonable speeds - e.g. 10kmph and above) or reversing (at all speeds)
      • It'll have some intelligence so you can assume that it'll track situations like when you are tailgating and wouldn't apply the breaks in that case (though it may generate an alarm, slow you down a little etc.) - and if in such situation the lead car brakes it'll apply brakes in your car too.
2. How much would you pay for the additional functionality that in case it detects that a collision in unavoidable it'll take measures to make the collision less lethal (e.g. slow down the car, turn to avoid a sideway collision in favour of even a head-on, dip the nose so a T-bone would be less lethal ...)
3. Would you consider it if you owned a base model car.

Kindly put other systems that come to your mind too (blind spot monitor and alert, driver sleep alert ... )


Moderators - I didn't find much on collision avoidance systems on team-bhp. If this is a repeat post kindly merge it with the relevant thread.

[dhanushs]

As for me, right now, vina, I would prefer to brake myself, whatever be the case or situation. Reason: I have been driving for about 13 years and more than ~2 lac kms, I have NEVER ever been distracted enough to forget the brakes. The max, I have been is over some dangerous corners, and lets just say, I knew what 'unexpected' was coming.

Buttt... I would like to invest in traction control systems, electronic stability systems ect.. of course, with a switch to turn everything off when I feel like.

But, if it were for my aging father, or me at 60+, or even my wifey at that age, I would definitely invest in collision prevension systems, as the chance of distraction is much more.

Considering a 10L car, I would be happy to shell out the price of Airbags.

[vkumars]

I would like a collision avoidance system which applies brakes on detecting an object while moving at reasonable speeds. That would be a boon in B2B traffic conditions (one problem is that I might grow too lazy to apply brakes). How much would I be willing to pay for that ? Something like 10K.

I might also be willing to pay more for additional security, if measures are taken to make a collision less lethal. How much I am willing to pay, depends on what the features are offered, certainly less than the price for Airbags. A collision can occur due to my fault or the fault of the other driver. A complete airbag protection system would protect me in either case, at different collision intensities, while the new system might not be that effective.

The base model is meant to be just that - a base model. I might be willing to shell out an additional 10K, but not more than that.

[vina]

Originally Posted by dhanushs

As for me, right now, vina, I would prefer to brake myself, whatever be the case or situation. Reason: I have been driving for about 13 years and more than ~2 lac kms, I have NEVER ever been distracted enough to forget the brakes. The max, I have been is over some dangerous corners, and lets just say, I knew what 'unexpected' was coming.

Buttt... I would like to invest in traction control systems, electronic stability systems ect.. of course, with a switch to turn everything off when I feel like.

But, if it were for my aging father, or me at 60+, or even my wifey at that age, I would definitely invest in collision prevension systems, as the chance of distraction is much more.

Considering a 10L car, I would be happy to shell out the price of Airbags.

Thanks dhanushs

so between 30k to 50k?


It is of course users' choice whether to install it, but don't go discounting the system so easily -

The system can help not just in case of distraction but also when your reaction time just wouldn't be enough. Several years ago I was travelling from a marriage Gurgaon to Delhi early morning, all cars on the highway were doing 80+, suddenly a SUV (in those days they were not so common - and given the time of the day and the fact that the previous night was a mass-marriage night, the driver probably was drunk) came from the left at very high speed and entered the traffic, took a left turn and, needless to say, wobbled and almost toppled.

My driver saw it coming, and swerved very fast - we missed it by inches. We were in a way lucky, but if the guy had managed to come bang in front of us, no amount of alertness would have helped.

A collision avoidance system can easily save 0.3s (average human reaction time) and probably upto 1s (you need to move your foot from accelerator to brake in such a case - that takes some time after you notice something on the road) - At 80kmph this is a difference of between 10m to 25m of breaking distance, and between 10kmph and 20kmph less speed at impact (should that happen) - i.e. between 20% and 40% reduction in impact energy. And this is for alert drivers.

[anilisanil]

Now that we have this thread here, it would be good to provide information on which all countries have these systems as options and how much do these cost over the base systems.

Considering that a car with an ABS extra and nothing else is sold at a premium of 20-25K it is unfair to think that we can get these systems (CAS) for the prices of range mentioned above.

A rather realistic question would be- these systems may cost this much so if they are available would you go for them?

My post is based on the premise that these systems cost much more than 5 figures. So do let me know if I am on a wrong premise!

[niranjanrvce]

Personally I would pay the premium we now pay for Airbags for this BUT I would need a switch to turn it off and I would need this technology to be proven beyond doubt.

On a side note, Vina - are you the guy who has got funds from MSME ministry, GOI to research on Anti Collision systems?

[vina]

Originally Posted by anilisanil

Now that we have this thread here, it would be good to provide information on which all countries have these systems as options and how much do these cost over the base systems.

Considering that a car with an ABS extra and nothing else is sold at a premium of 20-25K it is unfair to think that we can get these systems (CAS) for the prices of range mentioned above.

A rather realistic question would be- these systems may cost this much so if they are available would you go for them?

My post is based on the premise that these systems cost much more than 5 figures. So do let me know if I am on a wrong premise!

The systems cost a lot right now but there is no standardisation, costs vary depending on capabilities etc.


Fair or unfair has not much to do with it unless there is a way you can force a manufacturer to force you to provide these things.

My question is - at what price would you be happy to buy one of them?

[lordofgondor]

Provided this system is build with robust components and doesn't malfunction like some automated features like TPRS & Intelligent Wipers (very uncommon but they do), I'd pay like 5% of the car's value. But I would like to have traction control & electronic stability first.

Somehow, I still belong to the old school thinking that car control should be more in the hands of the driver than circuits inside it.

[vina]

Originally Posted by niranjanrvce

Personally I would pay the premium we now pay for Airbags for this BUT I would need a switch to turn it off and I would need this technology to be proven beyond doubt.

On a side note, Vina - are you the guy who has got funds from MSME ministry, GOI to research on Anti Collision systems?

how I wish, but alas !

some years ago I was with a company and they were doing a some collision detection stuff for Visteon (we were doing AI/imaging/sensing/algorithms, not mechanicals) - I helped the guys with some modelling problems (for like two days - they may not even remember but I was intrigued).

Now that a big discussion on ABS/airbags is going on, so I though why not ask about this also - the moderators would have called in off topic hence this other thread.

[anilisanil]

Originally Posted by vina

The systems cost a lot right now but there is no standardisation, costs vary depending on capabilities etc.


Fair or unfair has not much to do with it unless there is a way you can force a manufacturer to force you to provide these things.

My question is - at what price would you be happy to buy one of them?

Fair or unfair has got to do with it coz, given a chance I would like them free too. See I would buy a Mercedes Hatch (if one is available) rather than a Ford if it is available for the similar price range. So unless you have certain intentions, I do not understand the rational behind asking someone how much would he invest in these, unless the prices are known.

Now say if a person A says he likes to invest 10 Rs and another says he wants to invest a lakh, how would that help you? If it does do let us know!

[vina]

Originally Posted by anilisanil

Fair or unfair has got to do with it coz, given a chance I would like them free too. See I would buy a Mercedes Hatch (if one is available) rather than a Ford if it is available for the similar price range. So unless you have certain intentions, I do not understand the rational behind asking someone how much would he invest in these, unless the prices are known.

Now say if a person A says he likes to invest 10 Rs and another says he wants to invest a lakh, how would that help you? If it does do let us know!

oh my, what did I do to antagonise you so much


Let me reframe it this way:

would you buy it for 70k? No? 50k? No? how about 40k? umm.. no ok 30k? may be
20k? yes

a lot of people have been making comments over the question of airbags/ABS like "if you value your life then you would take airbags" implying that those who don't buy the airbags do not somehow value their lives.

I just want to know (curiosity) how much would anyone pay for a 5L to 10L car to get a collision avoidance system add-on. This will save lives after all.



PS: I'm not a market researcher and have no financial interest in automobile industry, direct or indirect (not even Tata, Maruti stocks).

[dot]

I believe in old school driving. More and more cars have gadgets that reduce the driver to armchair driving. Some comforts are ok, but too many are over the top, IMHO. I would be very sceptical of such a device that is being discussed.

The reason is there are way too many parameters that goes in determining whether a particular situation demands a emergency response or not. How will the car computer determine how severe is the situation to deploy the "collision avoidance" system.

BTW, does such a system exist? In case it does, I will not pay for it. If my future vehicle comes with it, I will probably disable the feature.

Please dont think I am trying to criticise the thread. Lets have a good discussion. Just expressing my opinion. I am also ready to change, if the change is for the better.

[anilisanil]

Originally Posted by vina

oh my, what did I do to antagonise you so much

No, I am just having a healthy debate.

I was just wondering what could be the intent behind this question. Because if one is curious, one would just ask "Would you like a collision avoiding system on your car or not?"

But when you are asking how much one would want to pay, it is difficult to quantify and hence my example. And I am arguing against because I for one know that these systems cost a lot and found it rather impractical to quote prices like 20-50K.

So even if the whole T-Bhp answers this question as they would like to pay 20-50K, we would not be able to get one for that price, rendering this exercise useless. No offense meant but I was just trying to understand why you wanted to know how much one would like to pay.

I know you might tell me that if I dont like the question I can stay off, but I seriously was interested on why you wanted to know the details and am rather disappointed to see it is just out of curiosity

[vina]

Originally Posted by dot

I believe in old school driving. More and more cars have gadgets that reduce the driver to armchair driving. Some comforts are ok, but too many are over the top, IMHO. I would be very sceptical of such a device that is being discussed.

The reason is there are way too many parameters that goes in determining whether a particular situation demands a emergency response or not. How will the car computer determine how severe is the situation to deploy the "collision avoidance" system.

BTW, does such a system exist? In case it does, I will not pay for it. If my future vehicle comes with it, I will probably disable the feature.

Please dont think I am trying to criticise the thread. Lets have a good discussion. Just expressing my opinion. I am also ready to change, if the change is for the better.

such systems exist only on very high end car right now (ABS/ESC/Airbags all existed on high end only in their initial phases).

In India Vovle XC60 has it, and so do Mercedes E-class and S-class

I don't know the price but the components are expensive (at the moment) and fast processor (unlike the plain-jane microcontroller that makes up the ECU) is needed for processing.

At the moment all systems are different, so they behave differently but some features (may not exist in all systems) are:

1. continuous monitoring of distance to front obstacles (including vehicles in front)
2. continuous monitoring of vehicle speed, environmental conditions and driver behaviour
   1. 1. different algorithms when system deems driver is doing something risky - e.g. overtaking, sudden speeding, turning ... scenarios where driver attention is likely to be narrowly focused and unseen hazards can exist
      2. Fog, lighting conditions
3. ...

these are intelligent systems - the algorithms are not simple.

for example if you are driving and somebody comes in front, the most you can do is brake, if it is risky to swerve (ditch on one side, oncoming traffic on the other), and hit the front vehicle.

What collision avoidance system will do is it'll apply brakes partially at first before you can even notice (human vision processing delay) and if you don't do anything at all then it'll apply brakes fully. HOWEVER if it calculates that high speed collision is unavoidable (slippery roads for example) then it'll pitch the nose of your car down just before impact (front brakes engaged, rear brakes released) - making the accident less severe for the passenger.

[SS-Traveller]

Originally Posted by vina

if it calculates that high speed collision is unavoidable (slippery roads for example) then it'll pitch the nose of your car down just before impact (front brakes engaged, rear brakes released) - making the accident less severe for the passenger.

Going into the back of a truck without underride protection in this country, wouldn't that make it more severe?

Do collision avoidance systems detect small obstacles, like a rock or a cat/dog, in the middle of the road?