[carwatcher]

I don't know whether I am stereotyping but at least what I see on accident videos really scare me to use 2-wheelers (Not only Motorcycles).
Two-wheeler users flying in the air or thrown away at some distance even at low speeds really shows the vulnerability of this mode of transport.

I am not discussing the extreme cases and won't argue about cases where the people in 4-wheelers are also being flown around (due to lack of wearing the seat belts) but IMHO riding a 2-wheeler is far more dangerous. Others may disagree.

Originally Posted by mvadg

In reality this mode of transport is very unsafe. Especially in a country like India (and I really can't think of any country where it is safer, can you?)

Lets not start a flaming war here because nothing much will be achieved. There are 2 camps here - "motorcycling is safe" and on the other "motorcycling is unsafe" - and and never the twain shall meet!!!

[anupmathur]

Originally Posted by carwatcher

I don't know whether I am stereotyping but at least what I see on accident videos really scare me to use 2-wheelers (Not only Motorcycles).
...

You are right to an extent but the main point is that these ghastly mishaps seem to happen far more in our country than elsewhere. It is largely because of very poor (non-existent?) driver training and the fact that, in any case, Indians do not value life at all!

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by carwatcher

I don't know whether I am stereotyping but at least what I see on accident videos really scare me to use 2-wheelers (Not only Motorcycles).
Two-wheeler users flying in the air or thrown away at some distance even at low speeds really shows the vulnerability of this mode of transport.

As a car driver, this thread scares me. That is good. It is healthy to be a little afraid when out there on the road, and all too easy to forget.

On the couple of occasions that I have had the opportunity to ask a biker if they had any clue how dangerous the "normal" thing they just did was, the answer is a resounding no. Yes, 4 wheelers do dangerous stuff too.

I am not discussing the extreme cases and won't argue about cases where the people in 4-wheelers are also being flown around (due to lack of wearing the seat belts) but IMHO riding a 2-wheeler is far more dangerous. Others may disagree.

There may be some who will deny it, but when I last looked, motorbikes were the most dangerous form of road transport. They just are. This is a worldwide thing, and it applies even in countries where bikers would not even contemplate not wearing proper protection for head and body, and where they have had a proper training.

I wish more bikers would join us in seeing accident reports (however many wheels) and getting scared.

[racerdabba]

To everyone who wants to show us bikers the ugly side of motorcycling, and want us to be scared on the roads,

I am scared. Everytime I leave a place on my bike, I am scared. That is why I try to cover myself as much as possible. What's why I wear my gear in summers and sweat like a pig at signals. That's why is keep my low beam switched on inspite of everyone telling me my lights are on. That's exactly why I take ample time to reach, and try to flow with the traffic, not cut through it. That's exactly why I keep my rear view mirrors aligned and clean.

I am scared of people, small animals, large animals, potholes, other riders, dividers, road undulations, birds and probably everything that you can find on a road and next to it.

But the thing that scares me the most is when I encounter car drivers. Drivers that have no regard for me and who see me as a menace on the road. Some want to wipe me off too.

What do you do when you're riding in Lane, in traffic, and this car wants to cut in your Lane? I'm at 40,the car behind me is not too far, I flash, I honk but the car wants to cut through you. What do you do? Jump over the median? Or hit one car or the other and get crushed? What do you do when you're riding on the extreme left of the highway, leaving all the space to our 4 wheeled (responsible) friends, and a responsible driver decides to overtake another from the left sweeping past you at 6 inches or less going 130kmph? Do I kiss the guard rail? Or tumble down somewhere? What do I do? Where should I go?

Do I leave what I love to do because of some people? You tell me.

[LithiumSunset]

Racerdabba, it's mutual isn't it, this mistrust?

If anything I hold my country's low standards in issuing licences for the abysmal road sense all of us have.

I know I'm simplifying but its a fact that there are too many of us. The premium for human life is low here for sure.

[maddy42]

Just to add my 2 cents. I ride in the US and the case against motorcycles are worse here. Pick up trucks and mini van drivers are the worst and they just don't check their blind spot before changing lanes. As a matter of education the motorcycle safety foundation course is one thing every rider and non rider needs to attend. Very informative and if you listen you will get tips which helps on ur rides.

Tip 1: don't ever be in somebody's blind spot. Speed up and avoid.

Tip 2: if someone is driving like a jerk, let them go away.

Tip 3: road rash with a car in a bad idea. They will win.

Tip 4: do not ride at night ever. Visibility is terrible.

Tip 5: always wear gear. If you think you will survive, just take a water melon and drop it from the first floor balcony. Now think that's your head in a crash. This is the first thing majority of the hog riders in America ignore! Also jeans lasts about 7 seconds when you are being dragged on the road at a 50 mph crash. Also shoes are mostly ignored. Hold a shoe in your hand and twist. If it turns its a terrible shoes to ride with.

Everyday is a learning experience. Like my instructor mentioned, a lady was sitting in the back of her house, behind the hall and kitchen on a Christmas night when the traffic is very very low and browsing the Internet. A pick up truck rammed her house, drove through her hall with all furniture, crossed the kitchen and then hit her, killing her. She was in the most safest place, but accidents happen. You can't hide in a cave hoping to be safe.

Ride and drive safe.

Maddy

[Thad E Ginathom]

Yes, racerdabba, the behaviour on both sides is abysmal.

I know I go on about bikers. The kind of bad behaviour I see on 4 wheels is, for instance, the sort of bullying that puts others at risk: that bullying 4-wheeler may damage his car, he may damage other people's cars, he may put other people in danger, but (which is unfair really) he is not risking his own life so many times in a day.

As a moderately experienced driver, I recognise good and bad road sense. I see good drivers on two wheels, keeping in lane, keeping distance, not cutting across, etc etc, but I am not a biker, and I suspect that for every bad thing that I see, there is probably more that you guys that do ride bikes see.

Mind you, I've met one or two who, no doubt, have great technical skills, but think that all the risk taking is just fine and dandy, because, hey, that's biking. Those guys would not have written a post like yours.

[apachelongbow]

Originally Posted by Sawyer

At the best of times motorcycling is unsafe. And it is even more unsafe on Indian roads than many others because of the complete absence of courtesy/culture here, which leaves the cyclist exposed to the acts and absent mercies of others on the roads, even in cities where high speeds aren't possible. All it can often take is just a touch or a side swipe.

IMO, in India the only justification for two wheelers is an economic one.

Riding for adventure/kicks is ok provided one has made sure that those that a death will leave behind, will at least not be financially affected.

Motorcycling is as safe or unsafe as the rider makes it. Defensive riding is quite safe, I know a lot of riders who have ridden for thousands of kms, safely, slowly, taking in the scenery. I am against that time speed record, iron butt 24 hours kind of riders, who are in the riding business merely to make records. Unfortunately India is full of morons so naturally our roads are moron infested. A good rider knows that and considers all road users as mentally challenged and rides accordingly. I always advocate riding, commuting or driving defensively, it's your life that's at stake, not the moron's.
Regarding this particular case, it is unfortunate, she died because of internal injuries, speculated that the handle bar hit her abdomen, rupturing the liver, nothing much could be done in such cases, unless one is close to a major trauma centre. Regarding her going off the curve, it can happen to anybody, in a bike or a car, all it takes is a bad day, and a second of day dreaming or bad judgement.

[Sawyer]

Originally Posted by racerdabba

I am scared. Everytime I leave a place on my bike, I am scared. That is why I try to cover myself as much as possible. What's why I wear my gear in summers and sweat like a pig at signals. That's why is keep my low beam switched on inspite of everyone telling me my lights are on. That's exactly why I take ample time to reach, and try to flow with the traffic, not cut through it. That's exactly why I keep my rear view mirrors aligned and clean.

I am scared of people, small animals, large animals, potholes, other riders, dividers, road undulations, birds and probably everything that you can find on a road and next to it.

But the thing that scares me the most is when I encounter car drivers. Drivers that have no regard for me and who see me as a menace on the road. Some want to wipe me off too.
What do you do when you're riding in Lane, in traffic, and this car wants to cut in your Lane? I'm at 40,the car behind me is not too far, I flash, I honk but the car wants to cut through you. What do you do? Jump over the median? Or hit one car or the other and get crushed? What do you do when you're riding on the extreme left of the highway, leaving all the space to our 4 wheeled (responsible) friends, and a responsible driver decides to overtake another from the left sweeping past you at 6 inches or less going 130kmph? Do I kiss the guard rail? Or tumble down somewhere? What do I do? Where should I go?

Do I leave what I love to do because some people are *******s irrespective of the number of wheels they are on? You tell me.

Do we have to tell you what to do? What do YOU think you should do, given your being fully seized with all the facts of the matter? What you think you should do is what is right for you.

[shubhodeepdas@g]

Spotted an Innova involved in an accident yesterday on NICE, Bangalore, just before the Kanakapura exit from Mysore Road side. It seemed like it was an overtaking manoeuvre from the left gone terribly wrong. Did not have anyone to take a pic. From what I can recollect, the truck did have an under-run bar installed.

Originally Posted by maddy42

Tip 1: don't ever be in somebody's blind spot. Speed up and avoid.

Tip 2: if someone is driving like a jerk, let them go away.

Tip 3: road rash with a car in a bad idea. They will win.

Tip 4: do not ride at night ever. Visibility is terrible.

Tip 5: always wear gear.

Would like to add

Tip 6: Be visible at all times. Make sure your tail lamp works and is visible. Brighter clothes help this process further in night.

Tip 7: Don't have anyone in your blind spot. Having rear view mirrors help.

Tip 8: Ride in a manner that is predictable for others.

Everyday I take NICE Road and do about 88 kms on my daily commute to work. There are some drivers and bikers (both 4 and 2 wheels) who insist on driving at the highest limit possible for their vehicle. And then there are others who drive on the right lane at 50 kph. Both are wrong.

[racerdabba]

Originally Posted by Sawyer

Do we have to tell you what to do? What do YOU think you should do, given your being fully seized with all the facts of the matter? What you think you should do is what is right for you.

I've been doing what I think is right for me since long now. And I'll be doing it for years to come. I am not going to stop riding or driving. I'm an avid fan of both and it's not going to stop. But the question was for those people who think motorcycling is unsafe only because of the vulnerability of the vehicle. No. It's not just that. Actually as someone pointed out, I can be more evasive in a motorcycle rather than a car. It's dangerous because of other road users, specially the ones who deem themselves superior cocooned in their tin shells.

[Sawyer]

Exposure to the countless other idiots on the road is only one reason, important though it is.

Being on two contact patches on the road on something that can't stand upright on its own compared to cars that have four such patches and can is another.

More vulnerability to vagaries of the road surface is a third.

And there are many other reasons.

I doubt anyone here has said that motorcycling is unsafe only because of the vulnerability of the vehicle.
PS: On reflection though, don't all the reasons become operative because of the vulnerability of the vehicle to them? If so, isn't that why it is unsafe at the end of the day?

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

I know a lot of riders who have ridden for thousands of kms

That's as flawed as saying I know lots of smokers that have lived into their nineties, if any valid conclusion is being drawn from the statement.

[racerdabba]

Originally Posted by Sawyer

PS: On reflection though, don't all the reasons become operative because of the vulnerability of the vehicle to them? If so, isn't that why it is unsafe at the end of the day?

If it wasn't a demolition Derby out there played by morons with a vehicle that has 4 contact patches and can stand on its own, the motorcycles half number of contact patches and other things wouldn't be a vulnerability. The riders skill would play more importance and people would fall because of their own mistakes, not from others.

In the end, motorcycle will be unsafe for the likes of you, and it'll be safe for the likes of me. For me, any vehicle inherently isn't safe. It's the rider/driver that chooses to be.

[pixantz]

Originally Posted by Sawyer

That's as flawed as saying I know lots of smokers that have lived into their nineties, if any valid conclusion is being drawn from the statement.

Now you are making it sound like biking is "injurious to health" and the makers should mandatorily put up a sticker stating the same on the bikes!

[Sawyer]

I am curious to hear the conclusion leap as to why it would be unsafe for me?!

And if no vehicle is inherently safe/unsafe, I assume that given the choice you would not pay for airbags/ABS and the like in your car, if you also drive one.