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Old 3rd August 2018, 06:11   #26866
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Originally Posted by binand View Post
7 victims I think. But if 6 is right please feel free to substitute in the questions below.

If someone who is drunk kills 7 people you want to lynch him?
What if the number of victims were 6? Would you still want to?
5? 4, 3, 2 or 1? Where do you draw the line between leaving the law to take its course and delivering instant justice?

And if someone who is not drunk kills 7 people do you still want this brand of vigilant justice to be the norm?
You might want to ask that question to a mob not me. I am not supporting vigilant justice but given our mob is trigger happy (I do not blame the mob alone, I blame the administrators as well but its a discussion for another day) and had lynched this guy, I would not have felt bad. I would have felt bad that justice in India had come to this but on the other hand the same judicial system would have let this monster come out on a culpable homicide charge free to drive drunk and kill people again.
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Old 3rd August 2018, 06:31   #26867
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Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
You might want to ask that question to a mob not me.
But you are the one who expressed an opinion that justifies vigilantism on a public forum of law-abiding citizens (mostly). You have a responsibility to justify your stance (which if left unchecked, will lead to anarchy) with concrete arguments, or accept that it is indefensible and we all could move on.
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Old 3rd August 2018, 06:49   #26868
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Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
Even though it pains me to hear about incidences of mob lynching, for once the mob should have lynch this low life.

It would help if you could explain what you really meant by this. From what I can figure, you seem to support lynching, even if were a one off.
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Old 3rd August 2018, 07:03   #26869
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Originally Posted by binand View Post
But you are the one who expressed an opinion that justifies vigilantism on a public forum of law-abiding citizens (mostly). You have a responsibility to justify your stance (which if left unchecked, will lead to anarchy) with concrete arguments, or accept that it is indefensible and we all could move on.
An opinion that had it happened to this guy I would not have felt as bad as I normally do or perhaps not. Its also the sheer frustration of a common man speaking who has been denied justice and concrete action by the administrators for a long time and things are only getting worse.

As for anarchy, we are already living in one if you havent realised. Our legislators are openly endorsing the lynch mobs, our judicial system is in tatters (the Loya case, what avenues do you think a common man on the road as got), the media is sold out and the public is out to kill based on whats app messages.

I think we can all move on.
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Old 3rd August 2018, 07:07   #26870
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Originally Posted by binand View Post
But you are the one who expressed an opinion that justifies vigilantism on a public forum of law-abiding citizens (mostly). You have a responsibility to justify your stance (which if left unchecked, will lead to anarchy) with concrete arguments, or accept that it is indefensible and we all could move on.
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Originally Posted by swissknife View Post

It would help if you could explain what you really meant by this. From what I can figure, you seem to support lynching, even if were a one off.
Oh! Come on! People reading posts in this forum are probably educated enough not to go around lynching people just because one member made an emotionally driven statement. If it is so easy to influence people, then this is probably the right forum to propagate and garner support easily for your cause. Whether good or bad.

I am not going to judge whether what he said is right or wrong. What I am more concerned about is why he made that statement. Because, we as a Nation, have lost all faith in the judiciary system. Many rich and powerful people go scot free after commiting heinous crimes. If you have the money and clout, which a large number of criminals seem to have, you will most likely be able to wriggle out of most cases, unless it is a heavily publicised one.

This has to change. If things improve, people will have faith that justice will be served and such statements, made out of utter despair, will never be heard.

Last edited by SCORPION : 3rd August 2018 at 07:11.
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Old 3rd August 2018, 07:59   #26871
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Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
I am saying for once I wish the public lynched this guy if he was driving drunk and ended up killing 6 people.
That is not the right reason to be lynched. The correct justifications are eating certain foods, ferrying cattle or appear like child lifter.
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Originally Posted by binand View Post
And if someone who is not drunk kills 7 people do you still want this brand of vigilant justice to be the norm?
Not sure if he really means it. The OP is trying to cash in on the latest fad in our country .
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Old 3rd August 2018, 08:11   #26872
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Many rich and powerful people go scot free after commiting heinous crimes. If you have the money and clout, which a large number of criminals seem to have, you will most likely be able to wriggle out of most cases, unless it is a heavily publicised one.
I think this is the case pretty much everywhere in the world; just that the threshold of "money and clout" for similar offences could be different in different jurisdictions.

I further think that this is a consequence of the adversarial justice delivery system that most of the world follow. There are several possible solutions to avoid this disparity all of which need to be proposed, debated, adjusted and accepted. But short-circuiting that process and taking the delivery part out of the justice system is never the answer.
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Old 3rd August 2018, 08:13   #26873
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This has to change. If things improve, people will have faith that justice will be served and such statements, made out of utter despair, will never be heard.
The thing is, whether there are rich people in positions of power in sectors such as cinema, bureaucracy, law etc who use their power to influence the law, or whether 10 people of India's common-class combine to take law into their own hands with their kangaroo courts, judging someone guilty if they get into an accident, or if they are feeding an animal, or if someone is giving chocolates to kids and bring in their firebrand justice in the form of lynching.. both are highly grotesque, illegal and appallingly anti-societal forms of law.

This is a country where India has zero knowledge on the written forms of law, unlike America where many people can recite and roll legal precedents and democratic rules off the top of their heads. The police read the law and human rights before making an arrest (the right to remain silent and the right to an attorney) and sometimes in situations where there is vagueness in the arrest the citizen can even ask why am I being detained/arrested, and if a suitable answer isn't provided backed by the code.. he/she can ask "am I free to go".

Ask an Indian Police about legal codes, sections and precedents, I bet they'll be seeing stars. Categorizing crimes & violations is one sure way to ensure that the public and police both know their limits.. of course this also means that the courts of law should also enforce and process these crimes and violations according to the punishments recommended for that respective section. Its not even true that Indian Police cannot do their job, I bet today there are more drunk drivers than there are cars with sun-tint on.. the speed and ferocity with which they cracked down on sun films was particularly impressive, though for a silly reason.

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Rights of a person arrested under ordinary circumstances is laid down in the right to life and personal liberty. No one can be arrested without being told the grounds for his arrest. If arrested, the person has the right to defend himself by a lawyer of his choice. Also an arrested citizen has to be brought before the nearest magistrate within 24 hours.
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Protection with respect to conviction for offences is guaranteed in the right to life and personal liberty. According to Article 20, no one can be awarded punishment which is more than what the law of the land prescribes at that time.
As citizens, one has the right to detain and "arrest" so to speak, anyone who has committed a cognizable offence in his/her presence (Sec 43, CrPC) .. this will of course be subject to further scrutiny by the appointed representatives of law in the form of police and courts. Lynching, is a form of law that is followed only in extremely primitive societies where people have no other job other than to take vengeance when they are in an extremely advantageous position and leverage on a crime hoping that two crimes cancel each other out.

Of course the legal framework of the country is a joke, as also the processes that implement the framework. Our nation suffers from extremely high patriotism where people put their unreasonable love for the country above all its defects and always say that "it's getting better", when it is not. There has to be a fundamental change in the nation as a whole, copying the American amended laws instead of the antiquated, hypocritical British laws would be a start. I'm also in favor of gun ownership laws, of course people should not be tempted to pull the trigger at everyone who sneezes.. it should be used purely for self-defense only. India will be a democracy only when the right to own firearms is implemented.
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Old 3rd August 2018, 09:35   #26874
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re: Accidents in India | Pics & Videos

Fast roads cause accidents:

Doddaballapur road, wide 6 lane roads with service lane on one side but too many break in the medians and traffic merging from the bylanes.

One such bylane is where BMTC Buses rush out, cutting across fast moving traffic on the main highway to turn right towards NES junction.

This happened today. As you can see, the driver cabin of the school/college bus is damaged quite badly and people climbing the bus to rescue/pull the driver (and others?) out. It was a major jam, with 2 ambulances rushing to the spot.



Thankfully, as we noticed closely, our fear that it would be ferrying kids was ruled out as we noticed no crowd inside that bus (May be it was heading to pick up kids as it was 0730am).

I couldn't figure out the other vehicle involved here. It certainly cant be the Maruti Van (Thats an ambulance), looking at the damage at that height for the School bus. It also cannot be the Green BMTC bus that you spot parked aside as I moved ahead as one cannot find any visible damage (Dent, broken window pane etc).

Recently, they have relaid the entire stretch and got rid of the pedestrian friendly speedbreakers and instead have placed bumblers at each intersection; Something that most of down don't really slow down for. But at the same time, rush hours is when I notice too many risk taking drivers trying to cross each of intersections at quite a good speed.

Accidents in India | Pics & Videos-map.jpg

Last edited by paragsachania : 3rd August 2018 at 09:39.
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Old 3rd August 2018, 09:35   #26875
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Originally Posted by binand View Post
I think this is the case pretty much everywhere in the world; just that the threshold of "money and clout" for similar offences could be different in different jurisdictions.
No sir, this sounds like an excuse. The probity expected from people in power or riches in the civilised world is much more than a normal citizen as they are considered role models. I can give you as many examples as you want. These societies are built on following the letter of the law. Of course if you have money you can hire better representation in the court but its much more difficult to influence forensics or police investigation which are light years ahead of what we do in India. Have you ever heard Tom Cruise driving drunk and killing homeless men sleeping on the street or Bill Gate's son killing people while driving his Aston Martin?

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Originally Posted by binand View Post
I further think that this is a consequence of the adversarial justice delivery system that most of the world follow. There are several possible solutions to avoid this disparity all of which need to be proposed, debated, adjusted and accepted. But short-circuiting that process and taking the delivery part out of the justice system is never the answer.
And where is the debate or the proposals that you speak of? The very law makers which are supposed to uphold the law and make new laws if the current one's are not fit for purpose, are the one's who are supporting the people who are breaking the law. WhatApp banned message forwards in response to the recent lynch killings but the government is nowhere to be seen. You can go ahead and explain to all of us what an adversarial justice system is but if a CBI judge killed under suspicious circumstances presiding over a controversial case is not safe, what can a common man expect? Do I blame the mob, or the masses which are a mute spectators or the police which are influenced by people in power or people in power which are elected by the same masses and then are also part of the mob. I see a societal collapse and see nothing being done about it. Would I feel bad if that guy was lynched for killing 6 people in cold blood by driving drunk? No. Do I support vigilant justice? Absolutely not.
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Old 3rd August 2018, 09:41   #26876
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re: Accidents in India | Pics & Videos

People revel in the cloak of anonymity that a group of strangers offers* and go berserk, feeling righteous as if they are all robin hoods - a mob. I think we should stop discussing this. Theorizing in a TBHP thread is one thing, facing one on the road is another. If you are lucky, no mob will be formed while you are coming to terms with the accident you just got involved in - thats the truth in our country. If a forum member thinks a mob is justified, so be it - people have opinions. Why this attempt to force TBHP members into ideal netizens ? I have lost count of rowdy aggressive behaviour shown by TBHP stickered vehicles (not all are duplicate stickers) in the city/highway over the past 6 or 7 years since I have been a member - what should we say about that ? People are people. We just share interest in vehicles, we dont share the same moral compass, and hence there is no point into forcing someone into changing his/her opinion. Lets get back to accident pics
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Old 3rd August 2018, 09:47   #26877
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Originally Posted by dark.knight View Post
I'm also in favor of gun ownership laws, of course people should not be tempted to pull the trigger at everyone who sneezes.. it should be used purely for self-defense only. India will be a democracy only when the right to own firearms is implemented.


Agree with your post whole-heatedly other than this part.
Since I thanked it right before I read this last part, I felt compelled to add this off-topic paragraph to my post first.

1. I absolutely do not agree that a country is a democracy only if there is a right to bear arms. (You may'nt have said that exactly, but it may be not-illogically inferred as such)
2. The pros and cons of allowing gun ownership are debatable, but best not discussed here. For what it's worth, I for one, am not entirely opposed to it - only almost entirely opposed.
3. Do you honestly think that with the kind of indescribably pathetic implementation that is de riguer in India, whatever the other benefits, that it can ever be anything short of utter idiocy to let alone allow, but even think of, even the most "strictly controlled" gun ownership here?
That's a rhetorical question - any debate I am even slightly open to the question of the right to bear arms is only applicable to highly developed countries, least of all here - no matter how many shivers run down my spine when I hear of lynchings, especially as a person who loves to travel by road to locales unfamiliar.
In all fairness, my views and/or openness to debate on the subject is likely entirely irrelevant to you. I naturally have no quarrel with that. Only that, since such a point was made, and that too by a person whom I have come to (virtually) somewhat recognize and respect (from your other posts I have read), I felt compelled to not keep my trap shut, for the sake of balance.

Yes, I know

And now, in the same vein, back on topic:
I almost always avoid getting into such debates online (for obvious reasons), and some great points of view have been expressed better than I could on the subject, but I will nevertheless add my 2 paise with regard to the relevant discussion since this is a rare online platform where such things matter, comments and discussions help build and shape opinions, and there is a genuine give and take of ideas.

It is true that one impassioned statement here will not yield apocalyptic consequences. It is also true that such statements may easily be made in a place where the populace is understandably sceptical of the justice system. However it is my belief that the educated members here are better than that - they are more masterful of their emotions, and aware that, despite how injustice can fuel blinding hatred inside one and all, a mob lynching simply cannot be justified. Again, I am just stating my high expectations from this forum and all members, not singling out an impassioned statement as inherently wrong. But I must refute it is as best I can (however ramblingly poorly).

And, as has been pointed out, death by human error while driving is absolutely not the same as murder. In my view, if the man had ploughed into a bunch of 40 (or any other number) school kids (or any other more or less sympathy attracting group) by the side of the road, it cannot be classified as murder, unless that was his intention.

If he was drunk, he must be tried according to the laws in place. If laws in place are not sufficiently punitive, they must be changed - as hard and slow as that might be. Either way, as has been pointed out, him being lynched because of a lack of appropriate severity, or the perceived risk of the offender entirely slipping through the justice system, is as bad as those with influence going scot free.

If he lost control/erred humanely, he must be penalised according to that.

But prosecution based on emotion and publicity is unfair. And even a single such mention, especially on a forum like this, must be called out - in my view, ultimately it is the slow propogation and proliferation of such statements that has lead to our daily headlines despairing lynchings.

As for this particular "incident" involving the Audi SUV, and the 6 or 7 deaths, I don't know if there is a way to establish beyond reasonable doubt that he was even speeding (please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). As for speculation as to whether he was drunk or drowsy or lost control - that is utterly beyond me from this distance.

There are far too many posts here assuming the worst.

And to reiterate, regardless of circumstances, a wish for the offender/human at fault to be lynched is inhumane.

Manufacturers covering up inherent safety flaws in their vehicles etc are different matters. Any distinction regarding culpability and appropriate punitive action I perceive, is only applicable to what I've attempted to discuss above.

Peace.

Edit:
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Originally Posted by venkyhere View Post
People revel in the cloak of anonymity that a group of strangers offers* and go berserk, feeling righteous as if they are all robin hoods - a mob. I think we should stop discussing this. Theorizing in a TBHP thread is one thing, facing one on the road is another. If you are lucky, no mob will be formed while you are coming to terms with the accident you just got involved in - thats the truth in our country. If a forum member thinks a mob is justified, so be it - people have opinions. Why this attempt to force TBHP members into ideal netizens ? I have lost count of rowdy aggressive behaviour shown by TBHP stickered vehicles (not all are duplicate stickers) in the city/highway over the past 6 or 7 years since I have been a member - what should we say about that ? People are people. We just share interest in vehicles, we dont share the same moral compass, and hence there is no point into forcing someone into changing his/her opinion. Lets get back to accident pics
Ah sir! If only I had read your wisdom prior to posting - I could've been slightly less foolish than usual today.
In any case, thank you for this - it has given me more perspective.
And without further ado, I shall shut up on this particular count.

Last edited by Mu009 : 3rd August 2018 at 10:01. Reason: Explained above
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Old 3rd August 2018, 10:19   #26878
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Agree with your post whole-heatedly other than this part.Since I thanked it right before I read this last part, I felt compelled to add this off-topic paragraph to my post first.
We're all going a bit off-topic but since it is in some way, related to accidents and the necessary protocols after an accident.. I suppose one more post would not do any harm.

Firstly, I appreciate the reply and it gives me a chance to clarify my stance further. On that topic, even the country with highest gun ownership is suffering from its side-effects.. so I do understand that given the propensity of mankind to misuse, that if such laws are activated it may do more harm than good and the public would literally be restless and insecure all the time. I only wish there was a middle-path between the two extremes of either being highly defenseless when and if a crime or mob aggression should take place and display of total power if a fire-arm be held in possession. I guess democracy is highly subjective and I should admit that India gets quite close to it, even though not all the way so I shouldn't complain much.

To keep things more in topic, I guess the news headline sometimes takes control of the story-line.. technically whether its 1 victim or several, it shouldn't make a difference because every victim is a result of being in the wrong place at the right time or vice versa. Also whether its an Audi or a motorcycle at fault, it shouldn't make a difference. The unfortunate incident should be gauged reasonably and logically.. with cameras and eyewitnesses filling in the gaps, rest a blood-test should put an end to all speculation about alcohol level BUT should not be reported merely as speculation, instead it should be brought to the limelight only if it's true.

The public can apprehend the offending(?) motorist and help out the victims as best as they can, I guess that just about does it for them.
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Old 3rd August 2018, 10:33   #26879
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Originally Posted by Mu009 View Post
If he was drunk, he must be tried according to the laws in place.
And the laws must be changed as you said succinctly but I will not place knowingly driving drunk under driving offences. It should be under manslaughter laws and guess what, we do not have manslaughter laws in India. You can kill ten people driving rash or drunk and you can be out the next day on bail on culpable homicide not amounting to murder charge. Is that how the public is supposed to believe in justice? Strong laws and their enforcement will be detrimental to our law maker. As absurd and ironic as it sounds, its the harsh reality and the masses need to realise that but they won't and they dont want to but its separate discussion for another day.
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If laws in place are not sufficiently punitive, they must be changed - as hard and slow as that might be. Either way, as has been pointed out, him being lynched because of a lack of appropriate severity, or the perceived risk of the offender entirely slipping through the justice system, is as bad as those with influence going scot free.
Totally agree and that has always been my stand. But look around you for once, for a process to finish we have to start somewhere and we haven't even started the conversation. The process sounds like a utopia in a society which has become totally dysfunctional and its getting worse every day and the system which does not work at all. An offender slipping through the cracks in the judicial system is how you iteratively discuss and amend your laws and enhance and upgrade your investigating techniques and agencies. Have you not seen what happens in our parliament? We arent even in the same direction let alone on the path to do that. Our prime time is dedicated to appalling soaps and our news debates to propaganda, eating habits and religion.

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Originally Posted by Mu009 View Post
But prosecution based on emotion and publicity is unfair. And even a single such mention, especially on a forum like this, must be called out - in my view, ultimately it is the slow propogation and proliferation of such statements that has lead to our daily headlines despairing lynchings.
No sir, its the dysfunctional policing, judiciary, media and abuse by high and mighty which has lead to these almost daily lynchings because there is no trust left in the institutions.

I am amazed that in your infinite wisdom, you believe that an emotive response to a dysfunctional system is the reason why the system is dysfunctional.

Last edited by extreme_torque : 3rd August 2018 at 10:53.
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Old 3rd August 2018, 12:09   #26880
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Originally Posted by paragsachania View Post
Fast roads cause accidents:

Doddaballapur road, wide 6 lane roads with service lane on one side but too many break in the medians and traffic merging from the bylanes.

One such bylane is where BMTC Buses rush out, cutting across fast moving traffic on the main highway to turn right towards NES junction.
How have you deduced that this accident was caused by speeding? This seems to be a common trend in Bangalore; to blame speed. I was once travelling down the service lane when an auto swerved deep into my path from the main road. I honked and barely avoided scraping him and when he catches upto me at the signal, he rants on about how I am at fault because I was speeding . The way I see it, there are lot of people and buses who break the signal at that NES junction which you are talking about. Could that not also be a cause for an accident? People can become very frustrated in a city where there is a blanket no-free left rule at several junctions even though some of them are clearly designed to allow for it. Even most folks who are blamed for speeding are merely trying to travel at 60 since the fast lane is filled with people going roughly the same speed as others around 30-40. Bangalore definitely suffers from a lot of other issues such as poor design (bus stops right after signals or flyovers), lack of lane discipline, illogical blanket rules etc. it seems like it has become easier for people to simply blame speeding rather than solve the issue at its core.
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