[RSR]

I came across a very saddening news link elsewhere. A foreign tourist has fallen victim to India's nasty death-traps that pass off as roads. Elad Fishman, a 31 year old Israeli biker, was killed when his motorcycle collided with a bus.

R.I.P. Elad. I feel extremely sad for his family, I pray that God gives them the courage to overcome this tragic, irreplaceable loss.



News source and image:

http://www.yourjewishnews.com/2013/10/n29766.html

[shipnil]

Originally Posted by Turbo_Torq

It says that the impact was so severe that the deployed airbag also 'blew off' i.e. either the entire airbag assembly was dislodged from the dashboard or the airbag itself was ruptured and deflated rendering the accident fatal.

I find it hard to believe that Toyota would've cut corners regarding safety.

Originally Posted by tharian

I don't understand how did the newspaper knew the air bag 'blew off' on the Etios?
For all I know , what they meant would have been that the air bag blew up to do its work.

Also, if the air bag was dislodged from the dash, it would have happened after being deployed. The driver air bag is clearly visible.

Regards

The correct translation should have been airbag burst upon deployment hence it did not perform its intended use of cushioning the occupant.

[supremeBaleno]

Originally Posted by Safety is Param

I don't think policing and challaning is going to solve this,

Awareness about the danger due to driving-without-belting would be the quick way to solve this, but that's just being optimistic. Enforcement would be the only way to make people take care of their own safety and we can see this in the way helmet-usage is increasing due to enforcement (atleast in the South - no idea about North India). And enforcement is not really a bad thing - if today the US/EU etc have a good traffic behaviour, I am sure quite some enforcement/penalising has gone into moulding this behaviour in the initial days (and still continues).

Originally Posted by Safety is Param

I bought the SUNNY because that was the only thing within my budget that could fit my 6'3" frame and still leave a room at the back seat for a person with a similar frame that was my priority after the ABS / EBD and Airbags boxes were ticked; and something that GTO bought for himself as well (enough indicator for the reliability part atleast for me?

Reliability and Safety are 2 different things. Most cars on sale today are reliable in the sense that given scheduled services are done, they will work without breaking down for atleast 2-5 years, if not more. We were discussing safety in a crash, which is not about reliability. BTW, if you followed GTO's purchase behaviour enough, you would have also noticed that prior to the Sunny, he bought an Indigo and the experience was far from reliable. So..

Originally Posted by Safety is Param

What I have mentioned in my earlier post is when someone is looking forward for a suggestion before he actually goes and books a car!

You are perfectly right in directing a potential buyer to consider investing in safety features (ABD, airbags) when buying a new car and this is indeed laudable. What did not seem right was your saying that 2 random pics of accidents will serve as an indicator of which brand is safer. Nothing could be farther from the truth. A current-gen Linea will definitely be better-built that a decade-old Esteem, but the comparison is flawed there since the comparison is between apples and oranges. If at all we are to compare, we should do it between same-gen/same-segment cars eg. the Linea-D (1210 kg) to an SX4-D (1245 kg). Both have the national diesel engine as a common factor, removing which out of the equation, would leave the body/chassis etc and given that they weigh in around the same (the SX4 is actually heavier), I do not see what logical argument one would have to say that Fiat is safer or better-built.

[DRIV3R]

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

If at all we are to compare, we should do it between same-gen/same-segment cars eg. the Linea-D (1210 kg) to an SX4-D (1245 kg). Both have the national diesel engine as a common factor, removing which out of the equation, would leave the body/chassis etc and given that they weigh in around the same (the SX4 is actually heavier), I do not see what logical argument one would have to say that Fiat is safer or better-built.

Not to nitpick, but I see a flaw in your theory. Just because two objects weigh the same, doesn't mean they have the same metallurgical properties. Let's just get FIAT and Maruti out of your mind.

There are few terribly heavy SUVs which scored just 3 stars in Euro NCAP. All am saying is, weight of the car may not translate entirely to it's crash worthiness.

Am neither praising FIAT/VW/Skoda nor degrading Maruti/Toyota/Honda, it is for the world to see.

[supremeBaleno]

Originally Posted by DRIV3R

Not to nitpick, but I see a flaw in your theory. Just because two objects weigh the same, doesn't mean they have the same metallurgical properties. Let's just get FIAT and Maruti out of your mind.

So, please enlighten us about the metallurgical properties that make a Fiat withstand any accident, while other cars weighing the same will just crumble ? Your earlier point was about thickness of sheet-metal used - so if you are saying Fiat uses thicker sheet-metal, then I would expect the Linea to be heavier than its peer, the SX4. Which is not the case.

Originally Posted by DRIV3R

Am neither praising FIAT/VW/Skoda nor degrading Maruti/Toyota/Honda, it is for the world to see.

What the world can see is facts. Not some bravado about being built like a tank etc. Please reply factually without relying on your mere feeling.

And if NCAP is to be the benchmark, the SX4 (hatch) was rated 4, while we don't have rating for the Linea (it was not rated/tested) and in the absence of a comparitive rating,
any assumption of safety would be just that - an assumption. The Punto and Swift (peers) are again rated 5 - which would mean equivalent safety in similar test conditions.

[DRIV3R]

I do not see any reason for the frustration in your tone, SB.

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

So, please enlighten us about the metallurgical properties that make a Fiat withstand any accident, while other cars weighing the same will just crumble ? Your earlier point was about thickness of sheet-metal used - so if you are saying Fiat uses thicker sheet-metal, then I would expect the Linea to be heavier than its peer, the SX4. Which is not the case.

Why are you asking me to prove your claims? If you are not able to wrap your brain around something, agree to disagree and move on!

What the world can see is facts. Not some bravado about being built like a tank etc.

Did you see any bravado from my side?

You originally replied to 'Safety Is Param' and I just pitched in with my points. I do not remember me praising any manufacturer as claimed by you. I just said that European cars are generally better built than their Jap/Korean counterparts. I am still of the same opinion and I did agree with few of your points like 'All accidents are not the same', for example.

If you take offense and keep picking on FIAT, just because I own one, I can't help it one bit. It is kind-of getting personal, if you are being subjective, let others be, too.

Please reply factually without relying on your mere feeling.

It would be wise to practice what we preach. Why am I not surprised?

SB, if you want to involve in fist-fights or mud-slinging, am all game but not on this thread, bring it on in some other dedicated thread.

Mods, sorry for this last OT from my side, feel free to delete this in case you plan on cleaning this thread of all Euro Jap debates/OT.

[Safety is Param]

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

Awareness about the danger due to driving-without-belting would be the quick way to solve this, but that's just being optimistic. Enforcement would be the only way to make people take care of their own safety and we can see this in the way helmet-usage is increasing due to enforcement (atleast in the South - no idea about North India). And enforcement is not really a bad thing - if today the US/EU etc have a good traffic behaviour, I am sure quite some enforcement/penalising has gone into moulding this behaviour in the initial days (and still continues)

Some facts -

1) Helmet has been made compulsory to save the life of a biker/scooterist in the event of an accident.

2) Seat Belts are compulsory in major cities (lets consider pan-India) to keep the driver locked in a position in case of a mishap.

Some other facts -

1) Helmets are not compulsory for the pillion rider (except Calcutta and Delhi, may be). So is the Pillion Rider's life less precious than the driver? Or, why is the onus left on the biker to make sure that the pillion rider too wears a helmet? Why is no law being enforced here as well?

2) Why are seat belts compulsory only for the front row passengers? Do the 2nd / 3rd row passengers never die in case of a crash by getting flung here and there? Why is the onus left on the driver to make sure that other passengers in other rows too buckle up? Why is no law being enforced here as well?

Though I follow all safety guidelines and make others follow too when they are in my vehicles (even for small runs), following is my opinion on the police interference as far as seat belts and helmets are concerned -

If my number plate is fancy - fine me - people may not be able to make a note of it if I hit someone and run away.

If my vehicle is polluting above permissible levels - fine me - my vehicle is not adhering to the emission rules.

If my vehicle is running high beams - fine me - The lights are inconveniencing other commuters.

If my vehicle has malfunctioning head / tail lamps - fine me - I am posing grave danger to other commuters who are on the move.

If I don't furnish a driving license when demanded by the authorities - fine me - I might be incompetent to drive, the vehicle is stolen, etc.

If I don't carry valid insurance documents - fine me - Third Party needs to be compensated from the insurance.

If I honk in "No Horn" zones - fine me - I am inconveniencing others.

If I drink and drive - fine me - I am a moron on the look out to bang some one innocent.

The list goes on -

If I don't wear seatbelts - WHY FINE ME?? - Am I causing inconvenience to others? If I decide to die, who can stop me? Then why fine? My car, my wish!!

If the government and police is so worried about the occupants, why not come up with something where in a car won't move if the seat belts are not engaged? Is that possible? Why don't they make people stop driving on the wrong side? Why don't they make people come to a dead stop at a big Red Sign indicating "STOP" as followed in the U.S.? And to top it all, why don't they make people follow Lane Discipline? Can't this be enforced? Aren't there sufficient incidents that highlight people cutting in and out of lanes haphazardly causing damage to cars and making 2-wheeler drivers fall flat on the road?

If there was an option to DISLIKE a post, my post would probably garner the maximum number of dislikes for posting this, however, I would still go ahead and give a big thumbs down to the traffic police in terms of being intrusive with regards to seatbelts and helmet.

These are my personal views and do not imply that the Team Bhp community endorses / advocates the same as well.

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

Reliability and Safety are 2 different things. Most cars on sale today are reliable in the sense that given scheduled services are done, they will work without breaking down for atleast 2-5 years, if not more. We were discussing safety in a crash, which is not about reliability. BTW, if you followed GTO's purchase behaviour enough, you would have also noticed that prior to the Sunny, he bought an Indigo and the experience was far from reliable. So..

If I was looking for a car when he bought an Indigo, I would have perhaps gone ahead with that, who knows? However, when I was in the market for a car, one thing that was pretty clear in my mind was - I am not going to buy TATA / MARUTI, even if I was to get a Buy One Get One offer So, if GTO had bought a MANZA instead of a SUNNY, I wouldn't have bought the MANZA for sure. I am not qualified to prove that the MANZA is better than the SUNNY or vice-versa, but there are some conditions one always has in mind when looking out for a new car. For me it was regarding not to buy an Indian brand.

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

but the comparison is flawed there since the comparison is between apples and oranges.

A car doesn't turn turtle every day, however, the chances of edging / cutting lanes are higher in a day to day commute and hence, I would look at the overall build quality where in even a small touch by a 2-wheeler wouldn't necessitate one to go to the workshop to take out the dent.

P.S. My 72 year old grandma, who was with us in the car for a Bangalore - Mysore - Bandipur - Bangalore trip last weekend, pledged to wear seat belts for the rest of her life after I showed her the Safari's bulged windshield (earlier in this thread) when we stopped for a break on Monday on the Mysore - Bangalore highway. Earlier, she used to say only one sentence - "You have tied up an old woman, and I can't even drink water from a bottle with ease"!!!!

So, I was at least able to inculcate safety discipline within my family, and I am happy about that. For the rest, I hope for the best!

[rohanjf]

Originally Posted by Safety is Param

If I don't wear seatbelts - WHY FINE ME?? - Am I causing inconvenience to others? If I decide to die, who can stop me? Then why fine? My car, my wish!!

In case your question is serious (and not mockery of our country's administration), I might have an answer for that. If you end up dead because you did not wear seatbelt, it will cost a lot to these parties:
- government for ambulance, post mortem etc
- other road users, until your corpse is moved away from the road
- court, because it has to spend time on one additional case
- family
- insurance company

So you will indeed cause inconvenience to others.
At least, I believe, this is the point of view in developed countries.
This is why they don't enforce any such rules when you are dirt biking in your own backyard

However, I can't say much about government/police not enforcing seatbelts/helmets for all occupants. Let's just say, they don't care about us common men.

[Safety is Param]

Originally Posted by rohanjf

In case your question is serious (and not mockery of our country's administration), I might have an answer for that. If you end up dead because you did not wear seatbelt, it will cost a lot to these parties:
- government for ambulance, post mortem etc
- other road users, until your corpse is moved away from the road
- court, because it has to spend time on one additional case
- family
- insurance company

Well, it was indeed mockery, however, don't the points mentioned in your post apply during a Bandh or a Hartaal as well? And doesn't the loss run into crores of rupees even though everyone is "Working from Home"?

These incidents are brushed aside with the cliche - "Ours is a Democratic country and everyone has a right to express their opinion, even if that causes inconvenience to the aam junta"! When compared to this, I don't think dealing with an accident would cause that much of a loss to the Government.

Anyways, I should stop posting more on this topic now since I don't want to be the source of dragging this thread

[supremeBaleno]

Originally Posted by DRIV3R

I do not see any reason for the frustration in your tone, SB.
Why are you asking me to prove your claims? If you take offense and keep picking on FIAT, just because I own one, I can't help it one bit.

There is nither any frustration nor I care what car you own. By your own admission, I was responding to someone else (not to you) and you by your own volition came in with your comments and theory. You only mentioned sheet-metal thickness and metallurgical properties in certain cars which give them an edge - so I would think it fair that you explain it to others like me who did not know about it. And other than asking you for facts to back up your claim, I did not in way say anything personal.

Originally Posted by Safety is Param

If I don't wear seatbelts - WHY FINE ME?? - Am I causing inconvenience to others? If I decide to die, who can stop me? Then why fine? My car, my wish!!

Assume you are riding in someone else's car, seated in the rear. The driver is belted up, but you are not because you believe it is not inconveniencing others and no one should force you. In case of an accident or even very heavy/sudden breaking, being unrestrained, you land on top of the guy in front and end up killing him. Would that qualify as an inconvenience ? This is not theoretical, but something that happened in a Swift-VDi accident at Kollam (KL) reported on this very thread, where the driver's death was partly due to the heavy-set guy at rear landing on top of him.

Originally Posted by Safety is Param

A car doesn't turn turtle every day, however, the chances of edging / cutting lanes are higher in a day to day commute and hence, I would look at the overall build quality where in even a small touch by a 2-wheeler wouldn't necessitate one to go to the workshop to take out the dent.

If you think the Sunny won't dent on being hit by a bike, you are being too optimistic and obviously you have not had enough biker experiences.

[binand]

Originally Posted by Safety is Param

If I don't wear seatbelts - WHY FINE ME?? - Am I causing inconvenience to others? If I decide to die, who can stop me? Then why fine? My car, my wish!!

The problem is what happens if you DON'T die, but are only maimed badly - so much so that you are say, bed-ridden for the rest of your life. Your family will most likely abandon you, and now you become the responsibility of the state. Since you have a constitutional guarantee of life, the state now has to spend scarce resources to keep you alive.

The state I guess feels it is better for it to prevent this scenario.

[manjubp]

Originally Posted by Safety is Param

Some facts -


P.S. My 72 year old grandma, who was with us in the car for a Bangalore - Mysore - Bandipur - Bangalore trip last weekend, pledged to wear seat belts for the rest of her life after I showed her the Safari's bulged windshield (earlier in this thread) when we stopped for a break on Monday on the Mysore - Bangalore highway. Earlier, she used to say only one sentence - "You have tied up an old woman, and I can't even drink water from a bottle with ease"!!!!

So, I was at least able to inculcate safety discipline within my family, and I am happy about that. For the rest, I hope for the best!

While everyone in home wear seat belts, my mother has the issue with the seatbelt. I will use you post and also the Safari's picture to make her to wear the seat belts.

[Safety is Param]

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

Assume you are riding in someone else's car, seated in the rear. The driver is belted up, but you are not because you believe it is not inconveniencing others and no one should force you. In case of an accident or even very heavy/sudden breaking, being unrestrained, you land on top of the guy in front and end up killing him. Would that qualify as an inconvenience ? This is not theoretical, but something that happened in a Swift-VDi accident at Kollam (KL) reported on this very thread, where the driver's death was partly due to the heavy-set guy at rear landing on top of him.

Personally speaking, in my previous company where I used to avail the cab service, our cab wouldn't move out of the campus unless all occupants, except the last row, are buckled up. Once the cab moved out of the campus, most of the employees would unbuckle themselves, but I didn't, because I understood that it was for my safety. That has made me wear seat belts even when I travel to the Airport in a Meru cab. And that's what I said in my previous post as well; Why enforce seat belts only for front row passengers, why not for the rear seats as well! And as far as I am concerned, I am not going to topple on someone in the front row because I do wear seat belts even when seated as a passenger in the 2nd row.

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

If you think the Sunny won't dent on being hit by a bike, you are being too optimistic and obviously you have not had enough biker experiences.

I was once hit on the right-curve of the rear bumper by a Maruti 800. It was being driven by a lady and she hit that part of the car perpendicularly on a round-about on Ulsoor road. Clearly her fault. I stopped for a second and upon seeing that she was a lady, went on with my drive to the office. Once I reached office, I saw that there were scratches in a one feet area, but thankfully no dent. Got the same removed using 3M Rubbing Compound and that part is now factory-fit clean.

And in my previous posts did I ever recommend the SUNNY directly or indirectly? What makes you think that I am all gaga about this vehicle? Did I ever say that even if I drive with my eyes closed I won't hit anyone if it's a SUNNY? If I had said all this, I could understand that I was being too optimistic. Even today I happily concede the fact that a Rapid is built stronger than a SUNNY, and it definitely looks better than the SUNNY.

On the other hand, I feel that it's you who are not ready to take anything against MARUTI, despite no one criticizing MARUTI in the first place.

[aravind.anand]

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

So, please enlighten us about the metallurgical properties that make a Fiat withstand any accident, while other cars weighing the same will just crumble ? Your earlier point was about thickness of sheet-metal used - so if you are saying Fiat uses thicker sheet-metal, then I would expect the Linea to be heavier than its peer, the SX4. Which is not the case.

What the world can see is facts. Not some bravado about being built like a tank etc. Please reply factually without relying on your mere feeling.

Sorry, but a car having heavier seats, very heavy tyres, heavy suspension and is taller will definitely be heavy, but not necessarily safe. It is more about how the crumple zones are designed, how the car absorbs the energy that matters. Not just weight.

And for NCAP ratings, presence of 6 airbags, ESP, Passenger seat belt warning, lane departure warning, driver fatigue warning and other active and passive safety systems play a sizeable role too. So a Swift's 5 star rating or a Punto's 5 star would nopt apply to our countrty, as the features on their European versions are not offered here, sadly, even as an option!

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by Safety is Param

If I don't wear seatbelts - WHY FINE ME?? - Am I causing inconvenience to others? If I decide to die, who can stop me? Then why fine? My car, my wish!!

I am so fed up with this question, with this point of view. Sorry, the world needs changing for the better, and sometimes that needs to be led by law and by the enforcement of law.

I lived through and experienced the screaming about personal liberties in UK with reference to both drink driving and seat belt use. Now, the vast majority don't even think about not wearing a seat belt, and just about anybody with any sense takes the alcohol thing so seriously that many go further than the allowable limits and follow a zero-alcohol-and-driving policy. Why? In both cases they got educated and came to accept what was necessary. The law had to lead --- just as it did in other social areas such as racial and gender discrimination. Or do you say that an employer should be free to reject you because of your race?

If there was an option to DISLIKE a post, my post would probably garner the maximum number of dislikes for posting this, however, I would still go ahead and give a big thumbs down to the traffic police in terms of being intrusive with regards to seatbelts and helmet.

Sure, my downvote would be there. Maybe put that down to having, as I say. lived through the story before because I got born somewhere else.

P.S. My 72 year old grandma, who was with us in the car for a Bangalore - Mysore - Bandipur - Bangalore trip last weekend, pledged to wear seat belts for the rest of her life after I showed her the Safari's bulged windshield (earlier in this thread) when we stopped for a break on Monday on the Mysore - Bangalore highway. Earlier, she used to say only one sentence - "You have tied up an old woman, and I can't even drink water from a bottle with ease"!!!!

So, I was at least able to inculcate safety discipline within my family, and I am happy about that. For the rest, I hope for the best!

Respect! But not every family has such grandsons. Probably the majority do not. The only mechanism left is the law. It has to be that way: there is not enough personal common sense in the world. Even as an already dedicated front-seat belt wearer, I had to be taught why rear belts were necessary: my common sense was not enough, the law had to give me a hand there.

I'm sure the moderators' axe is falling. This is sooo off-topic. Sorry mods, I really believe in not giving you guys extra work, but I had to get this off my chest!