[Divya Sharan]

Originally Posted by dark.knight

The bikers la-la land is called the lane lines, I hate to repeat this again and again but its true, specially in the city that is known for its two-wheelers - Bangalore.

EVERY biker sticks to the lane lines on every road.. and as a result they consider both lanes as their own and assume that their movement should happen freely and without contest either to the left or to the right.
......

Originally Posted by venkyhere

To add to that, whether its the :
1) the "im in a hurry, you are not" pizza/food delivery guy, or
2) the "im so selfish, i dont care if I hit a pedestrian" footpath riding office commuter, or
3) the 120+ "see, how fast I fly in my 3 lac bike, honey" reflective sunglass clad style-god with his girlfriend (sitting 2 feet higher than him) hanging on for dear life,

all of them, invariably think their two wheeler is a point object, .....

I agree whole heartedly with you both. But, when I don my helmet and riding gear for my commutes in city, here's what I see:
1. Alto with only one person.
2. WagonR with only one person.
3. Swift with only one person.
4. Honda City with only one person.
5. Innova with only one person.
6. Fortuner with only one person etc.

Now all of these 'intelligent/not wishing to sweat' folk hog all four out of the two or three available lanes. Only cars and buses and trucks hogging all lanes!
What does a rider do? He sees that nobody respects him. Therefore, he respects nobody.
It's prevalent in India - buy an SUV, become a road bully! On what grounds? I refuse to give them way unless I've a safe passage for myself. It's a give and take process.

I also agree that most riders out there have no road sense. But not all drivers are sensible either. If a bad rider takes the steering wheel, he's a bad driver too and vice versa.

I feel car owners should also realize that roads belong to everyone and possibly give some space to 2 wheelers. Maybe carpool or take shared cabs. Don't hate bikers.

Same goes for the 2 wheeled party.

[DriverR]

Second life for lucky two wheeler rider

Caught On CCTV: Close Call For Karnataka Scooter Driver In Crash With Bus

A two wheeler rider has an extremely lucky escape when he came face to face with a bus during what seems like an bad overtaking decision from his side.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnMG...gyLsLi4oEeryxg

[honeybee]

Originally Posted by Divya Sharan

I agree whole heartedly with you both. But, when I don my helmet and riding gear for my commutes in city, here's what I see:
1. Alto with only one person.
2. WagonR with only one person.
3. Swift with only one person.
4. Honda City with only one person.
5. Innova with only one person.
6. Fortuner with only one person etc.

Now all of these 'intelligent/not wishing to sweat' folk hog all four out of the two or three available lanes. Only cars and buses and trucks hogging all lanes!

We car drivers have the same grouse against the truck drivers. They too are just one or two in a truck, but manage to hog all the lanes!

Sadly the similarities end there.

The above video shows an emtpy road ahead, two laned, with the biker in the left lane. The trouble comes as he decides to take a leisurely stroll in the next lane, probably to feel the tar surface and see if the tar is smoother on the other side of the lane divider.

In the process he hasn't put his turn signal on, and he hasn't checked his rear view mirror. He probably doesn't know why the manufacturer charged him for those flashing lights and shiny plates.

Hopefully now he does.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by DriverR

Edit: On second thoughts, I think this post is better suited for the Accidents Thread.

Maybe not. One of the worst examples of bad driving/riding. That rider pretty-much threw themselves at the bus.

Simply, do not overtake in the face of oncoming traffic. This does not mean overtake if you think there is going to be a gap that will be big enough --- especially in such an extreme case as this.

The rider should, in a slightly better world, be charged with reckless driving and endangering the lives of others.

[Doge]

Originally Posted by discoverwild

Pardon my ignorance, Thad. The Nexon accident isn't a scuff as far as I can see. Nor are those of one tumbling down in Jammu that was shared a while ago, nor was one of the Hexa that missed a turn and tumbled twice somewhere in Kerala.

Assumptions of build quality are fine as long as you don't end up in an accident. On the fateful day, in a crash, the build quality defines whether you are still breathing or going to be buried six feet under.

Have spent almost 25 years of my life driving various cars and clocking an average 20k kms every year, I think I can safely assume what build quality is all about. Having also worked on building highways and seeing accidents on a daily basis then, I can say, 90% of the time it is the driver's fault - fatigue, overconfidence, street racing, driving long hours, slow reaction times, miscalculations, road rage, bad upkeep etc.

Exaggerations exist everywhere. You need to know if you need to take it with a pinch of salt or a bucket load. Acche Din, for instance.

How do you define build quality? Heavy doors and fenders do nothing for safety, it is the inside that matters. A well designed chassis is the most important thing, not the doors.
The days of heavy build are getting over, get in to any new Mercedes or BMW and you would know what is on.

[discoverwild]

Originally Posted by Doge

How do you define build quality? Heavy doors and fenders do nothing for safety, it is the inside that matters. A well designed chassis is the most important thing, not the doors.
The days of heavy build are getting over, get in to any new Mercedes or BMW and you would know what is on.

I don't define anything. We see examples here of what build quality is. People surviving horrific accidents is proof of the build. Do not read comments in isolation.

Heavy doors and fenders are good to have when you have plenty of 'touch and go' in bustling traffic. Cars getting lighter serve a larger purpose than just safety. It's the cost of materials and to improve mileage.

Why is a Suzuki that's sold in Europe much heavier than the same sold in India?

Let's also say you have the option of going out in a Baleno or an S-Cross, both from Maruti. With only the safety factor in mind, which one would you choose to be in?

[selfdrive]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

Maybe not. One of the worst examples of bad driving/riding. That rider pretty-much threw themselves at the bus.

The ridiculous part is that after getting up he pointed to the Omni van (?) as if to blame that driver for his stunt.

He was solely and completely to blame for the fall. In such cases, I think such guys should be checked if fine (no impact from the fall and no driving under influence). Then they should be tied to the nearest tree for an hour to set an example

Too many of these morons instigate mobs to damage cars (or the bigger vehicle in an accident) and/ or bully those drivers into offering compensation. It is high time such morons get a taste of their own medicine and are shown up for what they really are. they cannot even be called as drivers; they are more like vehicle launchers.

[honeybee]

Originally Posted by Doge

How do you define build quality? Heavy doors and fenders do nothing for safety, it is the inside that matters. A well designed chassis is the most important thing, not the doors.
The days of heavy build are getting over, get in to any new Mercedes or BMW and you would know what is on.

What about getting T boned at a junction? Would you prefer heavier doors with a stronger anti intrusion beam that can stop an 80kmph missile or a fuel efficient lightweight construction that's probably good enough for a 40kmph collision?

[dark.knight]

Originally Posted by Divya Sharan

Now all of these 'intelligent/not wishing to sweat' folk hog all four out of the two or three available lanes. Only cars and buses and trucks hogging all lanes!
What does a rider do? He sees that nobody respects him. Therefore, he respects nobody.
It's prevalent in India - buy an SUV, become a road bully! On what grounds? I refuse to give them way unless I've a safe passage for myself. It's a give and take process.

I don't wish to comment on how 1 person drives around in a SUV, sedan or hatchback, and while I certainly get your point on how two-wheeler motorists actually prevent more congestion by using a two-wheeler which consumes less space and less fuel, my original point was and shall remain only on "safe" riding and keeping to rules. It doesn't matter to me whether its a two-wheeler, autorickshaw or car.. they are jointly defined as motorists. If two-wheelers indeed have such feelings and vendetta on car drivers, it is eye-opening to me and I will have to exercise much more caution than ever before for I'm guilty without cause.

For example yesterday I was caught in a gridlock and it was made all the worse by a never-ending stream of two-wheelers and autorickshaws who kept pushing and pushing and honking their way out of the tightest spots, it took 10 minutes just to escape that 50 feet long junction. If the two wheelers from all sides allowed the opposite side to pass first then it wouldn't have taken more than a minute, I've also suffered 4-5 scratches on what is otherwise a reasonably well-maintained car, all while I was parked in junctions. In the end all I plead for is lane-discipline, adequate indication before turning and perhaps, even a polite hand sign to make me feel that I'm even a human being behind the wheel who is worthy of being communicated with. For me my safety is a priority as also is the well-being of anyone seated in my car and even my car itself. Equally important is the safety of other drivers/riders who constantly test my nerves and reflexes by breaking rules, for the road is a symbiotic path and everybody need to take care of the other for it to function perfectly. Vendetta does no one any good.

Originally Posted by Doge

How do you define build quality? Heavy doors and fenders do nothing for safety, it is the inside that matters. A well designed chassis is the most important thing, not the doors.
The days of heavy build are getting over, get in to any new Mercedes or BMW and you would know what is on.

Except that when Mercedes tries to reduce weight it uses high-strength aluminium for the overall frame which is lighter but also more rigid than regular spec steel, ultra-high strength steel for the A and B pillars, as well as a mix of sheet-metal. For the doors and hood of the new Mercedes 2019 G Class, they have used aluminium instead of the 20 or 22 gauge steel sheet. This I knew because I had read in a forum that people using angle grinders to cut modern cars (about 20-22 SWG) couldn't do the same as easily in older cars with 16-18 SWG and needed bigger mig welders to join panels. BMW's on the other hand, also use extensive CFRP i.e carbon-firbe-reinforced-plastics on the core of their cars combined with aluminium, magnesium alloys and high-strength steels to reduce weight but maintain stiffness. While not being as heavy as before, their doors still weigh a lot compared to the cars of the class we're currently discussing.
Doors also play an extensive role in safety.. they are made with high strength pipe cross-welds like Volkswagen does, or with 6 way safety beams (total on 4 doors, 3 per side, 1 each on rear door) like Hyundai and BMW, and Mercedes has a more reinforcing 12 way cross structure (across 4 doors, 6 per side) on their GLA SUV's because of height.

Again I don't wish to criticize any brand for what it is or what it lacks, when pricing is an objective there sure will be restrictions in every way possible. I'm just sharing what I know. Thicker sheet metal increases weight and decreases fuel economy, the two alternatives to lowering weight is to use exotic alloys and increase net price of car production and consequently, MRP, or to use thinner gauge sheets & normal spec steel for the frame which will result in saving cost but also decrease rigidity/stiffness/safety. Off topic and and oft debated about subject, so I shall stop.

[Divya Sharan]

Originally Posted by dark.knight

I don't wish to comment on how 1 person drives around in a SUV, sedan or hatchback, and while I certainly get your point on how two-wheeler motorists actually prevent more congestion by using a two-wheeler which consumes less space and less fuel, my original point was and shall remain only on "safe" riding and keeping to rules. It doesn't matter to me whether its a two-wheeler, autorickshaw or car.. they are jointly defined as motorists. If two-wheelers indeed have such feelings and vendetta on car drivers, it is eye-opening to me and I will have to exercise much more caution than ever before for I'm guilty without cause.

For example yesterday I was caught in a gridlock and it was made all the worse by a never-ending stream of two-wheelers and autorickshaws who kept pushing and pushing and honking their way out of the tightest spots, it took 10 minutes just to escape that 50 feet long junction. If the two wheelers from all sides allowed the opposite side to pass first then it wouldn't have taken more than a minute, I've also suffered 4-5 scratches on what is otherwise a reasonably well-maintained car, all while I was parked in junctions. In the end all I plead for is lane-discipline, adequate indication before turning and perhaps, even a polite hand sign to make me feel that I'm even a human being behind the wheel who is worthy of being communicated with. For me my safety is a priority as also is the well-being of anyone seated in my car and even my car itself. Equally important is the safety of other drivers/riders who constantly test my nerves and reflexes by breaking rules, for the road is a symbiotic path and everybody need to take care of the other for it to function perfectly. Vendetta does no one any good.

Agree with you. That's why I said, the feeling is mutual. And most IT folk in Bangalore who ride 2 wheelers are one of the worst road users on earth.
See, the problem with riders is that they don't understand that road use is a privilege and not birthright.
The way they use roads is pathetic.
Having said that, we, as drivers (car/truck/bus) need to be more patient. Yes, we usually take 1.5x in commuting w.r.t a 2 wheeler and hence we do lose focus or patience or both, but still we know that in the current scenario, it's always the bigger vehicle at fault. Unless you have a dashcam to save the day, that is!
I only hope that we teach our children to be better road users, irrespective of the number of wheels, from an early age. Until then, all parties just need to be a little patient. At most, it adds 5-10 min to a long journey.

[msdivy]

Originally Posted by Divya Sharan

I agree whole heartedly with you both. But, when I don my helmet and riding gear for my commutes in city, here's what I see:
1. Alto with only one person.
2. WagonR with only one person.
3. Swift with only one person.
4. Honda City with only one person.
5. Innova with only one person.
6. Fortuner with only one person etc.

What about two-wheelers with just one person on it, when it can carry 2
Why don't they find the 2nd person during the ride for efficient utilization of space it occupies?

[JediKnight]

Originally Posted by Divya Sharan

I also agree that most riders out there have no road sense. But not all drivers are sensible either. If a bad rider takes the steering wheel, he's a bad driver too and vice versa.

I feel car owners should also realize that roads belong to everyone and possibly give some space to 2 wheelers. Maybe carpool or take shared cabs. Don't hate bikers.

Same goes for the 2 wheeled party.

It is very easy to hate bikers. Agree many bikers drive like complete morons, probably since the two wheedlers maneuverability allows it. There is perceptible holier than thou attitude among four wheeler drivers. Badi gaadi. Remnants of a feudal society, still imprinted in the Indian psyche. A place like Bangalore will stop working without two wheelers. Just imagine every two wheeler replaced by a car. Nothing would move. Your 2200 kg SUV hauling your little ego would not be of much use then.

[VKumar]

It is always better to first conduct a situational analysis and then jump to the conclusion, my thoughts and observations can be found in my replies below.

• Maximum resolution available: 480P
• The point motorcyclist started turning to right: 19th second
• The point when contact between the vehicles happened: 22nd second
• Difference between the first sign of turning and contact: ~2.5 seconds
• Reaction time available for an alert driver: 2.5 seconds
• No. of people on motorcycle: 2

Other observations:

• The Terrano driver didn't brake at all
• The pillion rider on the motorcycle had given the hand indicator - can be seen in the picture posted below:

Mathematics time!!

Assumptions:

• Camera car speed = 100 kph (I have various videos which prove that dash cam speed looks way higher than actual speed of the vehicle)
• Terrano speed = 120 kph
• Motorcycle speed = 30 kph
• Differential speed between motorcycle and Terrano = 90 kph

Rate of loss of distance between the Terrano and the motorcycle: 25 meter per second
Since the Terrano driver didn't brake at all, so the car has covered a distance of 25*2.5 = 62.5 meters between itself and the motorcycle

Many of the members here may have seen such a situation, IMO if the motorcycle rider is at say 25% fault, then the Terrano driver is at the remaining 75% fault because - the motorcyclist was ignorant; but the Terrano driver too was ignorant but at a way higher speed. While we go fast, we have to be alert; the Terrano driver wasn't in this case.

It is a clear case where two ignorant drivers have banged each other.

Originally Posted by DRIV3R

It was the biker’s fault to barge into the fast lane without checking, but the Terrano did not even stop after the hit.

Driving is a skill which requires a lot of alertness and anticipation

The Terrano driver has miserably failed at both these important aspects of driving, biker was definitely at fault, but the Terrano guy is at a higher one. If he was alert, then he had enough space and time to try an evasive maneuver - which he didn't at all.

Originally Posted by shubhodeepdas@g

Both are equally at fault of completely ignoring their surroundings and driving.

100% agree, still I am adamant at my point and repeating it again - the person going faster needs to be more alert - it is a responsibility of responsible people to make sure that idiots don't get killed on the roads - right?

Originally Posted by venkyhere

Mob fury borne out of a need to let out personal frustrations, thrashes the driver of the bigger vehicle, irrespective of whatever happened.

In 2016 I had this accident where I t-boned a biker - trust me sir, nothing happened; absolutely nothing. In fact the people present at the spot were in my favor after they saw what exactly happened.

Once I was ignorant and got brushed by an SX-4, that time too people came up and warned me about being ignorant and entering the main road directly. Mob fury depends a lot on the way the driver was driving and how exactly the incident has happened.

But the camera car guy could have stopped in this case, he had time, space and a video footage - enough for the situation.

Originally Posted by Axe77

Terrano for not stopping.

The motorcyclist made the life threatening decision, at the same time the Terrano driver didn't even try to make his decision wrong. His fault is not that he didn't stop - his fault is that he did not even try to.

Originally Posted by dark.knight

The bikers la-la land is called the lane lines, I hate to repeat this again and again but its true

Let's talk the case in hand and not go for stereotypes - the biker here was in the left and came to right - he wasn't riding in the middle of lanes. He made the grievous mistake and paid quite hard for that, what about the driver who could have probably avoided it but decided not to?

EVERY biker sticks to the lane lines on every road.. and as a result they consider both lanes as their own and assume that their movement should happen freely and without contest either to the left or to the right.

Please refer the first line of my previous reply!!

[/quote] no matter how many cars they brush against and dent.. nothing happens to the handlebars or the leg-protectors of the bike..[/quote]
There is a simple rule of protecting your car:
Either pull enough to the side that there is no space for the 2 wheeler to pass, or leave enough space that they can pass freely - problem solved! I have been following this since years, especially the second one and it works.

Still, the best part you know about two wheeler riders? Well, they would have stopped to help these men, unlike the camera carrying car!!

the two wheeler did NONE of those.

Please refer the picture posted above.

[quote]two wheeler should've stuck to his lane or should've turned much in advance if he wanted to take a right at that junction.
100% agree.

Originally Posted by Sheel

Something appears wrong with the driver of the Terrano. I didn't spot the brake lamps when the rider was inching close towards the Terrano.

All he did as an evasive maneuver was steering slightly towards the right, decent chances of something wrong as the video poster himself has stated that the Terrano was being driven rashly and had a few near misses previously too.

Originally Posted by venkyhere

its the car driver's responsibility to not hit them by panic braking

100% agreeable, I too get a few heart-in-the-mouth moments every month for the same reason.

Originally Posted by honeybee

We car drivers have the same grouse against the truck drivers. They too are just one or two in a truck, but manage to hog all the lanes!

So you expect trucks to carry passengers? What if the overloaded truck driver expects you to carry some of it in your car? C'mon man, that vehicle isn't meant for this purpose, that's a pure for sure redundant example. Those 18-20 wheelers take so much space but carry only 2 people and a lot of goods - car drivers have no right to have this grouse that a truck carries only one or two people.

Additionally, if I go by what all I have experienced till date - then if I go by the percentage of good drivers of the total (of each kind) on the road, the truckers will probably come on the top; especially the long distance truckers.

Originally Posted by Divya Sharan

If a bad rider takes the steering wheel, he's a bad driver too and vice versa.

This is indeed a truth - an ignorant and inattentive person will have the personality traits always; no matter what he/she is doing.

Originally Posted by JediKnight

Just imagine every two wheeler replaced by a car. Nothing would move. Your 2200 kg SUV hauling your little ego would not be of much use then.

Bitter but truth. I have personally developed a habit with time that I let the two wheelers pass from between may car and the car ahead of me; especially when they move from right to left most lane - saves my time later on as well as gives me peace.


I once had this Duster just ahead of me who was trying real hard to block any two wheeler from passing. Since it was a standing jam (for cars), an elderly uncle came to my window, asked me to reverse six inches - which I did and made enough space for people to pass. Then I realized that the duster driver rolled his car back by around 2-3 inches - again same outcome. I went to him and told him that he won't save even a single second of his time by doing such nuisance; but may end up getting scratches on his car and worse, getting beaten like dogs here on the road by a bunch of frustrated bikers and this is for sure that no other car driver will come out to rescue him, he didn't utter a word and silently made the way - around 5 minutes later when the jam opened; only cars were left there to cut into lane of each other and move ahead at snail pace.

[paragsachania]

Originally Posted by VKumar

Driving is a skill which requires a lot of alertness and anticipation

This sums it up !

- The fact that the 2 wheeler rider started to bend was the first hint - I would anticipate that he is most likely to change his lanes - Anticipation!

- The fact that there was clear sign of median opening ahead would give another hint that the 2 wheeler rider was attempting to cross to the other side - Alertness!

(another reason why I personally always prefer driving in the left lane all the times unless I am overtaking; At the same time, look for gap in medians whenever I am next to it anticipating even a dog to cross the road!)

We can sit and go on and on trying to find the fault with the biker but driving in our country's roads is all about anticipation and alertness as you said and its the lack of it that results in such mishaps!

Conversely, the 2 wheeler rider should have remained alert when taking that turn suddenly by anticipating the gap in the median ahead and gradually moved to the right lane instead of that last second decision.

But hey, this is exactly why it is called an Accident .

[Divya Sharan]

Originally Posted by msdivy

What about two-wheelers with just one person on it, when it can carry 2
Why don't they find the 2nd person during the ride for efficient utilization of space it occupies?

I guess we're deviating away from the topic for no reason. In fact, by that logic, a 2 wheeler should only be carrying 2 people at most as per the rule book. But many people (read families) load up to 3/4/5 people on a puny bike.
So, lets not get into that area.