[venkyhere]

I think we should put a rest to this "build quality" , "safety ratings" , "thud feel of the door" etc arguments and counter-arguments here. Unless we are all involved at the cutting edge of automotive safety research or material science involving steel and aluminium, we should take all the posts here in this thread with a pinch of salt.

Accidents involve hundereds of variables (technically speaking) - its one of the perfect examples of the school of thought that believes "science is an approximate model of nature, over generations we have gotten better with the modelling, but never perfected it. So never dismiss an actual observation as wrong-observation, if it does not fit into the existing model of how things are supposed to work - its the theory thats wrong, not what actually happened".

This is the reason why, even the crash-test agencies which provide safety ratings, have to stick to certain "standard" testing conditions, so that the labelling that they do are based on 'some criteria'. Whatever the 'some criteria' is, itself is highly debated and contested.

Hence, no matter how scientifically well informed you are, and how closely you watch/trust the safety ratings by all these agencies - remember one thing - nobody really knows. Engineers and scientists of the car-maker and the safety rating agency have approximated, and you just hope that they are as close to reality as possible. Nobody can really say for sure. Probably thats why volvo have given themselves time until 2020, inorder to claim "nobody can die from a car accident, if the car is a volvo". I would say we must wait and watch whether volvo can keep its word, or whether there are disclaimers to the above statement, neatly tucked away under a small asterisk somewhere.

But one thing is pretty sad, when the MD of a car maker says 'safety is our last priority' - we know that there is no sizeable population of grey haired gents racking their brains about this stuff, within that company. So, if someone survives a terrible accident involving a car from that car maker, it is probably down to either :
(a) the car designer got lucky - somehow the structure managed, even though the person who made the structure did not put proper thought into making the structure survive
(b) the survivor has just had the biggest stoke of luck in his/her life, to tilt the 'variables' involved in the accident in such a way, that he/she survives

With a car maker who actually are 'paranoid' of safety (for example volvo), we have to bring a 3rd factor in addition to the above two :
c) may the design is well thought through, it has taken into account a lot of things and the trust imposed by the buyer on the brain of some gray haired men has paid off, IN THIS CASE.

Its all a question of how much weightage is there to (a) (b) and (c) , behind the survival of someone involved in an accident. In case of maruti, from what the MD himself said, (c) is pretty weak

[shaktisarangi]

My two bits on this raging debate about vehicle safety and Maruti versus others is as follows:
a) First regarding the Baleno crash, as per research I have done it seems the car was hit on the rear end by the truck while trying to overtake it. This caused the driver to lose control and the vehicle which was being driven at high speed hit the median and flipped 3 or 4 times following which it slid on its roof for some distance and was finally t-boned on the side by a truck coming from the other end.
That is a LOT for any car to handle and I believe it explains the extreme damage to the Baleno.

b) Having worked in the Indian automobile industry I know for a fact that Maruti makes changes to its cars that compromise safety as compared to the European versions.
This is in favour of reducing cost as Indian customers are generally price sensitive and not very concerned about safety.
It is a business call at the end of the day as you are giving customers what they want and most Indian customers are clue less about safety despite driving the fanciest of cars ( case in point the recent Skoda accident on Hyderabad ORR)

c) At the end of the day better customer understanding of safety issues and a push from the government should ensure that we get cars as safe as any equivalent European variant.
Regarding Maruti, the fact that it can take a call to make it's cars safer, (they already know how to with their European models), bothers me personally and I would therefore never recommend a Maruti product to anyone.

[Torqy]

Originally Posted by sunishsamuel

If people slow down, follow rules, then this thread will have to be closed, isnt it ? This thread became 1200+ pages, so many eye openers but all we see is more contributions to this thread. Sad to see so many lives being wasted on a daily basis. Time to think if a few minutes of unsafe thrill is worth the risk !

Exactly, all we hear is people asking for more and more gadgets / airbags / safety features trying to make the cars idiot-proof, while the majority of the drivers prefer to stay idiots. You'll be surprised to know how many of these drivers have no clue about even the "Low Beam".
What we conveniently forget is "The airbags / ABS and other safety features" are ALWAYS for the occupants of the car.....not for those outside. So, an idiot can still kill 10 people sitting cocooned in that safety shell.

-- Torqy

[sephiroth]

A weeks delay in posting this.
Spotted this Ertiga in a ditch on the Surur side of the Khandala tunnel, on my way from Panchgani to Mumbai. This was snapped on 22nd November. What seems weird is that the Ertiga is facing the wrong way of the road. The road leading to the tunnel is one-way the other way. Absence of skid marks seem to rule out it having spun before landing into the ditch.
There was some dried blood on the rear passenger door. Didn't stop since the incident was already resulting in a bottleneck.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by Torqy

... ... ...
What we conveniently forget is "The airbags / ABS and other safety features" are ALWAYS for the occupants of the car.....not for those outside. So, an idiot can still kill 10 people sitting cocooned in that safety shell.

I agree 110% with the spirit of your post, but ABS can potentially save the lives of others

[IshaanIan]

As a car enthusiast, I feel the need to vent here and considering the recent discussions on this thread, I suppose this may be quite relevant to the topic:

Does anyone else feel as though things are simply not going the right way in terms of future development?

Cheap cars of today (sub-15 lakhs) seem to be engineered keeping on-paper figures in mind. Everyone is only bothered about maximum theoretical efficiency (real world mileage improvements have been marginal), peak output (power/torque curves are left out of the equation), and number of features or gizmos in the vehicle and lastly, maximum profit margins. The is no honest development anymore and my biggest gripe with focusing on what I consider secondary factors, is that cars are beginning to loose their "feel" there is no longer a connect with the machine and companies like Hyundai don't seem to bother while others continue to dilute that feeling. Increasing number of modern small cars, have me making mid-corner steering adjustments or corrections at high speeds they all feel dynamically less sound and increasingly disconnected.

What bothers me is, forget seatbelts, airbags heads up displays blah blah; being confident in your abilities to pilot a car, is in the end your primary safety and no one seems to care about that factor. Manufacturers save money by not developing a dynamically capable chassis for family cars, no effort in creating a connect between the car and the driver and instead spend very little in kitting their cars with a bunch of silicon chips that cost next to nothing at their end and the public gets wowed and fooled by all these "features" honest engineering of the 90s is gone.

[hangover]

Originally Posted by IshaanIan

As a car enthusiast, I feel the need to vent here and considering the recent discussions on this thread, I suppose this may be quite relevant to the topic: Does anyone else feel as though things are simply not going the right way in terms of future development......silicon chips that cost next to nothing at their end and the public gets wowed and fooled by all these "features" honest engineering of the 90s is gone.

An excellent point.

I own a certain car. I won't name it since that's not under discussion. It somehow provides much more driving satisfaction than any new car.

I don't mean to sound like a Luddite. We have a few nice "modern" cars at home. And i do use them regularly. I'm forced to use them is more correct. My parents and some of my family prefer those "nice" cars.

The car control and and confidence you get in a well designed drivers car is missing.

And sadly it does not look like a solution is near. Most car chief's are adept at MS excel and power-point than in opening a can of transmission fluid.

Now, if they make Clarkson, Tiff Needle and Sabine Schmitz the chiefs of an auto company or two....

[phamilyman]

Originally Posted by IronH4WK

my wife and me almost got crushed by a BMTC bus on our way back from a breakfast ride last Sunday. quick evasive maneuver saved the day.

Crazy. A lesser bike could've been found wanting in that scenario.

IMHO the fault is yours - such bus drivers are pretty much the norm in most parts of India. As riders its our responsibility to be ultra-defensive since physics isn't on our side. I normally avoid such narrow overtakes where any random lane change (which is actually quite likely in such merging lane scenarios) can result in us being cut off and a certain accident.

Why give the morons a chance, I say? Good reactions though - this must've been way too quick actually. Your instincts saved the day.

[GTO]

Mod Note: The Baleno accident has been discussed enough. Additionally, we have dedicated threads to discuss build quality. Please continue the discussion over there.

Lets move on. Thanks!

[Dry Ice]

Originally Posted by IshaanIan

As a car enthusiast, I feel the need to vent here and considering the recent discussions on this thread, I suppose this may be quite relevant to the topic:

Does anyone else feel as though things are simply not going the right way in terms of future development? .....

Don't lose hope just yet.

Not mentioning any price bracket, but for me, the description fits the 'commuter cars'. These cars are intended to take you from point-A to B, in crazy traffic. Not BIA kind corners or straights. The heavier steering isn't welcome here. The roads for commute are horrible, a stiff suspension doesn't help. Frankly speaking, our 'market' favors these commuter cars and ends up getting more of them. Positive feedback loop. Well, the silver lining is now at least they have started to come with decent safety features.

Car companies are a business. They will make and sell something which is in demand. Not something which is 'correct' or morally right or suited to a particular group, say 'enthusiasts'. Sure, they can make a model or two for them, but it isn't top priority.

[IshaanIan]

Originally Posted by Dry Ice

Not mentioning any price bracket, but for me, the description fits the 'commuter cars'. These cars are intended to take you from point-A to B, in crazy traffic. Not BIA kind corners or straights. The heavier steering isn't welcome here. The roads for commute are horrible, a stiff suspension doesn't help. Frankly speaking, our 'market' favors these commuter cars and ends up getting more of them. Positive feedback loop. Well, the silver lining is now at least they have started to come with decent safety features.

Car companies are a business. They will make and sell something which is in demand. Not something which is 'correct' or morally right or suited to a particular group, say 'enthusiasts'. Sure, they can make a model or two for them, but it isn't top priority.

I understand what you are saying but according to me we have let too much fly in the name of business. Light steering is fine but one can still expect feedback, I mean heck if they are engineering 3 cylinder forced induction motors with crazy peak output figures and mileage (in lab conditions) then they can definitely infuse some feel and dynamism to the car. Like I said, being in control of the car is primary safety according to me. I never felt confident driving a Hyundai at highspeeds because I need the car to be a little chatty to endure high-speed maneuvers during incidents and such. Maybe the aam junta likes reverse cameras on their sub 4 meter hatchbacks but a good car, one that is dynamically gifted is what they deserve, maybe not what they need right now We take the same stance with safety features like ABS and airbags even though aam junta never cared all I am saying is, isn't everyone forgetting primary safety first?

PS: hope I get away with that batman reference

[Dry Ice]

Originally Posted by IshaanIan

Like I said, being in control of the car is primary safety according to me.
.....
We take the same stance with safety features like ABS and airbags even though aam junta never cared all I am saying is, isn't everyone forgetting primary safety first?
......

There's a saying -

It takes 8,460 bolts to assemble an automobile, and one nut to scatter it all

When our country's machinery doesn't produce quality, safety conscious drivers, giving them better cars won't help. People still don't belt up, the most basic of safety features that is standard on all cars.

IMO, the developments will come in only through legislation. Until our country passes some to ensure a minimum safety rating for cars, there is little, we as a enthusiast community can hope to achieve.

[dhanushs]

Just got this photos from a friend.

This happened near Pariyaram, Kerala. The Duster and Eon got into an accident, and after a while (passengers all came off the vehicles) the Duster started burning.

[schakravarthy]

My friend sent these pics. Crash occured at Dattagalli, Mysore.

[su1978]

while on my way today to office from Faridabad to Gurgaon, saw this Escorts hydra pulling out a Hyundai Accent from the ditch by the side of road. Guess the driver was drunk and was diving at illegal speed and did not notice the curve ahead. Roof had crumpled to some extent. No signs of blood though proves that the driver escaped unhurt. Since the dickey of car was intact hence this rules out any rear impact caused by some heavy vehicle ramming it from behind. Also there were no tyre marks on the road proves that the driver lost control