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Old 10th December 2017, 19:06   #25231
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Originally Posted by Arjun Reddy View Post
.. If that is the resultant damage on the Baleno for just hitting a two wheeler, then it is just flimsily built. I would not buy the crumple zone theory here.

I know padestrian safety is equally important. I do not think Maruti have got there as yet. Maruti first needs to take care of its own occupants.
It you observe the pattern, its only the Japanese (India spec cars) cars that crumble so much when compared to European design (atleast most of the Euro OEM India spec cars sold here have a more rigid build).
Its not that the Euro design philosophy does not care about pedestrian safety. In fact they have a higher level of safety awareness and prioritise safety over efficiency and their designed cars (typically) do not self-destruct in the name of pedestrian safety.

The flimsy light weight build is clearly to cut material costs and extract more fuel efficiency (and thereby achieve greater sales in our fuel efficiency conscious market). Its got nothing to do with pedestrian safety.

Ultimately its our consumer base that has to become safety aware and demand safer vehicles from OEMs. OEMs will continue to sell vehicles that meet our Gov't minimum prescribed safety standards (that may not be safe enough) and get away with compromises in structural rigidity for India spec cars.

Hopefully regulations will get more stringent as we go along. We (our regulations) are already moving in the right direction in terms of mandatory airbags from Oct 2017 and mandatory airbags regulation and mandatory crash testing and compliance hopefully coming soon.

Last edited by for_cars1 : 10th December 2017 at 19:17.
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Old 10th December 2017, 23:02   #25232
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Accident last week along the Alappuzha Ernakulam highway just outside Alappuzha. There was some religious procession going on so the road was clogged. The lady driving the car tried to get ahead of a lorry in front of her, blindly, while stuck in a jam, and drove right onto an oncoming bike. Maybe she freaked out and kept her foot on the pedal, as she dragged the bike with the biker a good 100m before coming to rest. Helmet wasnt fastened so it flew away after the first impact. Rider seemed to have suffered minor injuries, was seen limping away.

Pics: Accidents in India-img_20171127_173102.jpg

Happened on the Infopark expressway in front of Rajagiri Engineering college. From what I heard, the Verna was driving on the right lane and slowed down near the circle (opposite the college). The lorry, thinking the Verna was about to take a right, over took it from the left and turned right. But the car kept going straight. And this happened.

Pics: Accidents in India-img_20171020_111833.jpg
Pics: Accidents in India-img_20171020_111844.jpg

Last edited by GeneralJazz : 10th December 2017 at 23:11.
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Old 11th December 2017, 08:00   #25233
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Originally Posted by for_cars1 View Post

The flimsy light weight build is clearly to cut material costs and extract more fuel efficiency (and thereby achieve greater sales in our fuel efficiency conscious market). Its got nothing to do with pedestrian safety.
One charitable way to look at them, then, is that Japanese cars have lightweight, easily crumped sheet metal - which helps them save cost - which does not affect car passenger safety positively or negatively. It just means that costs are initially low, but in an accident, the metal crumples right away and you end up paying to get the panel replaced.

I could be wrong though, just thinking aloud.

Other than the cost, is there any negative, for lightweight and easily deformed sheet metal of Japanese cars?
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Old 11th December 2017, 08:51   #25234
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Originally Posted by lawdgawd View Post
One charitable way to look at them, then, is that Japanese cars have lightweight, easily crumped sheet metal - which helps them save cost - which does not affect car passenger safety positively or negatively. It just means that costs are initially low, but in an accident, the metal crumples right away and you end up paying to get the panel replaced.
Unfortunately if the metal crumbles like it did in the picture, the car is a write-off. No amount of tinkering will help in that case .
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Old 11th December 2017, 09:09   #25235
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As i see it, a car is expected to save lives, any which way, even if it is at the cost of the car itself. That's the reason cars are subject to crash tests. Money can't bring back life. I remember the Mercedes monogram which was once firmly positioned on the bonnet as made flexible to bend over to prevent injury to pedestrians. The metal sunshades of cars were removed for the same reason. Wiper blades wee tucked underneath the bonnet facia etc.
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Old 11th December 2017, 09:15   #25236
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Unfortunately if the metal crumbles like it did in the picture, the car is a write-off. No amount of tinkering will help in that case .
Is it? Sheet metal can be replaced, right? Dented or crumpled?

I thought car's structure was the difficult (or impossible) thing to fix.
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Old 11th December 2017, 09:27   #25237
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Is it? Sheet metal can be replaced, right? Dented or crumpled?

I thought car's structure was the difficult (or impossible) thing to fix.
In this particular case, the chassis and engine seem to be damaged. Not an easy fix.
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Old 11th December 2017, 09:30   #25238
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Originally Posted by reignofchaos View Post
In this particular case, the chassis and engine seem to be damaged. Not an easy fix.
Then its more than a crash that affected sheet metal. So either that means the chassis and engine are flimsy - I doubt that - or it was a big enough crash so sheet metal strength is not a determinant in the car's fixability.
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Old 11th December 2017, 09:39   #25239
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Then its more than a crash that affected sheet metal. So either that means the chassis and engine are flimsy - I doubt that - or it was a big enough crash so sheet metal strength is not a determinant in the car's fixability.
Chassis itself has been cost cut for india. If there was a cross member running in the front of the car, this kind of crumpling would not be seen when hit by a scooter. Baleno is just like most other marutis (barring the s-cross) is a flimsily built car. Even it's euro NCAP rating is barely a 3. If they test the current indian version, it probably will score even lower.
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Old 11th December 2017, 10:48   #25240
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Somehow, I don't buy this crumple-zone theory. I do know what it is and it's there for a reason. But, that said, if a car crumples like an accordion upon slightest of impact then we can only call it fragile. If a tiny Honda Dio can crumple Baleno this much, then imagine what a heavy bike like a Harley would have done. And, not to speak of other 4-wheelers.
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Old 11th December 2017, 10:59   #25241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lawdgawd View Post
One charitable way to look at them, then, is that Japanese cars have lightweight, easily crumped sheet metal - which helps them save cost - which does not affect car passenger safety positively or negatively. It just means that costs are initially low, but in an accident, the metal crumples right away and you end up paying to get the panel replaced.

I could be wrong though, just thinking aloud.

Other than the cost, is there any negative, for lightweight and easily deformed sheet metal of Japanese cars?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgsagar View Post
Somehow, I don't buy this crumple-zone theory. I do know what it is and it's there for a reason. But, that said, if a car crumples like an accordion upon slightest of impact then we can only call it fragile. If a tiny Honda Dio can crumple Baleno this much, then imagine what a heavy bike like a Harley would have done. And, not to speak of other 4-wheelers.
Lets just say it is to avoid killing the the vulnerable, like a pedestrian, that you may run over in India. Saves the pedestrian's life and saves you from spending long time in jail.
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Old 11th December 2017, 19:31   #25242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lawdgawd View Post
One charitable way to look at them, then, is that Japanese cars have lightweight, easily crumped sheet metal - which helps them save cost - which does not affect car passenger safety positively or negatively. It just means that costs are initially low, but in an accident, the metal crumples right away and you end up paying to get the panel replaced.

I could be wrong though, just thinking aloud.

Other than the cost, is there any negative, for lightweight and easily deformed sheet metal of Japanese cars?
Quote:
Originally Posted by aerohit View Post
Lets just say it is to avoid killing the the vulnerable, like a pedestrian, that you may run over in India. Saves the pedestrian's life and saves you from spending long time in jail.
I know I'm going to receive a lot of flak for saying this, but then that's fine! Because at some point truths have to be told, even if it's harsh. I can't believe so many Bhpians are blinded by this hollow "crumple zone theory" & "pedestrian safety". Crumple zones work only if the crumple zone crumples while the rest of the structure stays intact. The entire car should never be a crumple zone! Unfortunately with Maruti Suzuki all the cars except may be Scross feels/shows that. They are coming up with absolutely flimsy cars just because it helps to reduce cost, improve fuel efficiency/power to weight ratio and also because of the fact that the cheapest thing in our country is the life of a human being both to the corporates as well as to the Government. It's got nothing to do with pedestrian safety.

I don't think the Government is going to step in to these things immediately because there are much worser things to look into. Then it's us consumers who should teach these manufacturers a lesson by giving them a feedback that we are not going to allow them to manhandle our lives n family for their pity profits!

I always discourage my loved ones from going in for a Renault/ Maruti Suzuki because these manufacturers don't give a damn about the safety of their customers. I'm sorry if it hurts any Bhpians and we can never blame ourselves individually but it's our overall attitude about safety that should be blamed. Corporates know Indians don't value safety so they cut corners everywhere when it comes to safety. Renault reducing the size of airbags/ or Marutis flimsy build etc.. are all examples of these. Where's the thing called "ethics"? They exist only because of us & the very basic thing that they should ensure is that their product provides an average level of safety that the competition too offers in the corresponding price range.

I had driven the baleno and yes it has lots of space, good ride quality, nice cluster, very practical but it felt like a toy car to me. It was too flimsy! & no Maruti Suzuki is not using carbon fibre in baleno to make it that light weight and strong at the same time. You know what happens. Going through our own accidents thread gives us enough insights about Marutis safety focus or to be exact- the sheer lack of it.

Renault reducing the size of airbags in Duster and reinforcing the driver side alone in Kwid works only in India. If they ever dared to try that anywhere else they might have suffered a life time ban/penalised heavily. No wonder why Kwid in Brazil is 130kgs heavier. But then Kwid is an affordable offering. Cars such as the Baleno/duster aren't! So I try my best to stay away from the most flimsy cars & those who are decidedly unethical in business practises. Yes you might lose some money n bling in the process but atleast your family will be safe. For many people by the time this realisation comes in it may be too late. Now the reason I picked Maruti n Renault here is because there are enough examples about their disregard to safety. I believe many of the cars in India below 10 lacs have their safety compromised except the very few that has been tested n some Europeans.

Once when I went to an FNG with my Linea I got to see this one with its bonnet and a few panels removed. Clearly seen is the impact beam in front. Above you can see what's provided on a Swift dezire. These cars were launched during the same period at similar price point and are comparable. It's difficult to believe that those two tiny pipes on the dezire is going to offer the same level of safety as the one below it. Haven't seen newer ones so can't comment on them but seeing how they fare I don't think there's much improvement.

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Originally Posted by DRIV3R View Post
Head-on collision between a BMW 3 series and Linea, somewhere on the BLR-HYD highway.

Attachment 1696717

Attachment 1696718

Source: http://www.teamfiat.com/threads/lifesaver-linea.16865/
This post a few pages back shows exactly how crumple zones work. Whatever was designed to crumple on both the cars crumpled while passenger cabin stayed intact despite a severe hit. Despite the Linea being 1/3rd the cost of a bimmer it still got the occupants out safe. & it's not a simple nudge as can be seen from the damage on the 3 series. Now I'm not saying these are the safest cars you can get etcc but atleast build quality matters at some places and just used an easily available example. Most of the european cars offer excellent pedestrian safety by using collapsible materials on vulnerable places and stronger beams where strength matters. While manufacturers here take it to the next level by using it everywhere and fool customers in the name of pedestrian safety and crumple zones.

With the absolute non sense that goes on in our roads on a daily basis, safety is of paramount importance even more than what was in the past. So try laying your hands on the safer ones in the market even if it's a bit of stretch. Now which are the safe ones? That's a difficult question- but I would stay away from Suzuki(except S-cross) & Renault anyday. They have to learn a lesson or two about safety of their own customers. Not intending to hurt the sentiments of any owners but I'm really fed up with seeing our lives taken for granted in our country and we all being blind about it too! Things have to change from us through our attitude and concern for safety to Government guidelines to force manufacturers to behave ethically.

Here's the pic of the impact beams on the said cars. The image failed to load earlier.
Attached Thumbnails
Pics: Accidents in India-picsart_1474992685874.jpg  


Last edited by Samurai : 12th December 2017 at 00:49.
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Old 11th December 2017, 21:06   #25243
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Originally Posted by SUPERSPORT View Post
Here's the pic of the impact beams on the said cars.
I completely agree with you on the part where jargon like “crumple zone” & “pedestrian safety” is used by manufacturers to get away with pathetic build quality.
It’s not just MSIL who’s doing it, but even companies like TKM are passing off flimsily built cars, while charging a bomb for them.
The sheet metal of both, the Toyota Fortuner & the Ford Endeavour, when compared side by side, shows what the word build quality stands for.
Yes, the reliability of a Japanese/Korean vehicle cannot be questioned upon, but not by sacrificing on build quality. It’s a very important aspect of a car, which can not only can save your life in the future, but also protect your car from minor dings in everyday driving. For example, our month old Innova Crysta already has a couple of tiny dings on the doors, thanks to the insanely flimsy sheet metal used.
I am NOT saying that people should stop buying cars like these, but it is the duty of the manufacturer to step up their game in this aspect & provide better built cars to the consumer. Producing cheap cars & selling a tonne of them only makes you a good company, but selling well built cars that a consumer will appreciate & thank their stars for one day, makes you a much better company.
In the above mentioned post, one can see why the Fiat Linea, in EVERY ownership thread, is called built like a tank.
But then, one can’t forget that owning a Fiat Linea comes with its own share of niggles that a Maruti Swift owner will never go through in their ownership period.
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Old 11th December 2017, 22:33   #25244
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Originally Posted by SUPERSPORT View Post
x x x [SNIP] x x

This post a few pages back shows exactly how crumple zones work. Whatever was designed to crumple on both the cars crumpled while passenger cabin stayed intact despite a severe hit. Despite the Linea being 1/3rd the cost of a bimmer it still got the occupants out safe. & it's not a simple nudge as can be seen from the damage on the 3 series. Now I'm not saying these are the safest cars you can get etcc but atleast build quality matters at some places and just used an easily available example. Most of the european cars offer excellent pedestrian safety by using collapsible materials on vulnerable places and stronger beams where strength matters. While manufacturers here take it to the next level by using it everywhere and fool customers in the name of pedestrian safety and crumple zones.

With the absolute non sense that goes on in our roads on a daily basis, safety is of paramount importance even more than what was in the past. So try laying your hands on the safer ones in the market even if it's a bit of stretch. Now which are the safe ones? That's a difficult question- but I would stay away from Suzuki(except S-cross) & Renault anyday. They have to learn a lesson or two about safety of their own customers. Not intending to hurt the sentiments of any owners but I'm really fed up with seeing our lives taken for granted in our country and we all being blind about it too! Things have to change from us through our attitude and concern for safety to Government guidelines to force manufacturers to behave ethically.
Reminds me of a totalled Vista I had seen in the Tata Workshop I frequented in Delhi. The Vista had come in for insurance claim purposes and its entire front, right till the firewall was badly crumpled. What was remarkable was that the passenger shell was intact, with minor bends along the A pillar and shut lines of the front doors. The owner of the workshop, who was there with me at the time informed me that it was an accident as a result of considerable speed, but the passengers had all walked out, with the doors having been opened on their hinges with some assistance.

What's important is that the well designed crumple zone, with (I'm conjecturing here) a robust sheet metal quality did its work properly and ended up saving the passenger cabin.

A robust build quality (along with a host of other safety considerations) surely does its bit in saving lives - a prerequisite that most car manufacturers today are ready to forego in their pursuits of lighter cars with higher fuel efficincies.

Cheers !
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Old 11th December 2017, 22:36   #25245
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Happened on the Infopark expressway in front of Rajagiri Engineering college. From what I heard, the Verna was driving on the right lane and slowed down near the circle (opposite the college). The lorry, thinking the Verna was about to take a right, over took it from the left and turned right. But the car kept going straight. And this happened.
Looks like minor damage. Bumper + Left/Right fender will need replacement. Bonnet crumple zones might have been triggered. Should also check for damage to the left/right arm, suspension and cross-member of the car.

The front airbags seem to have been triggered. Hopefully the owner of the car has bumper to bumper insurance. Else, will cost quite a good amount of money to fix the airbags back

Last edited by bhpfaninblr : 11th December 2017 at 22:38.
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