[sandeepmohan]

Originally Posted by venbas

Xylo Car turning turtle on an Overbridge.

Hmmm....that does not look like dash cam footage, cause the camera seems to be hand held. Was the chap filming at random and just so happened to capture this?

For a moment I thought this was Richmond Road fly over in Bangalore but that is narrower than this one and has the odd, one of kind, American left hand drive arrangement (or atleast it was).

[FORTified]

Originally Posted by sandeepmohan

Hmmm....that does not look like dash cam footage,

At the end, does the Xylo got back on its four? It looked like so, thru the dust cloud.

[Indian2003]

Originally Posted by venbas

Xylo Car turning turtle on an Overbridge. Looks like a high speed overtake gone wrong as the Xylo swerves suddenly to avoid hitting a car coming on the opposite lane

https://Youtu.be/brQKzm1f6OY

This driving style just shows that training should be improved in driving lessons. Drivers should also get a lesson in the laws of physics which will make them better drivers.

Driving a car is not just being able to operate one. Force, friction, traction and balance are all part of driving a car.

When you brake you need to allow for enough friction to be able steer your car. If the wheels lock, you have used up 100% of the friction and you have none for steering and you loose control like the guy in the video. He did not even make it to his destination with his rash driving.

Even more important on rainy and slippery roads with reduced friction. You need to have enough friction for traction, braking and steering.

About 4 months a year I drive on roads with near zero or zero friction. I have no fancy letters like ABS and ESP on my car. I can keep up the pace with the latest model cars with the works in safety features.
I do skid but on purpose to train myself in controlling the car and fun too.

Another thing is the time saved by speeding. You save only seconds and risk your life for these few seconds.

Driving at 90 in a 80 km zone saves you 50 seconds on a 10 km stretch with no traffic. At 100, you save 1:30 seconds and 2:03 seconds at 110 km/hour.

Is it worth risking yours and others lives to save these few seconds? These seconds saved is not even enough for a coffee.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by Indian2003

When you brake you need to allow for enough friction to be able steer your car. If the wheels lock, you have used up 100% of the friction and you have none for steering and you loose control like the guy in the video.

True. But isn't it also true that, if you attempt the nearest thing a car can do to a 90-degree turn, the momentum in the original direction is now briefly sideways? And that is one of the main ways to flip a vehicle, especially if it has a high centre of gravity.

Even more important on rainy and slippery roads with reduced friction. You need to have enough friction for traction, braking and steering.

Every time it rains, it is so frustrating to see the almost complete ignorance of that. Almost nobody changes their driving at all.

About 4 months a year I drive on roads with near zero or zero friction. I have no fancy letters like ABS and ESP on my car. I can keep up the pace with the latest model cars with the works in safety features.
I do skid but on purpose to train myself in controlling the car and fun too.

Do you drive in icy places? Even though I grew up in England, I don't have much of that skill. I wish I'd taken lessons in Northern Europe! Or visiting a UK skid rink for training would have been easier.

[Duckdoc]

Originally Posted by Indian2003

About 4 months a year I drive on roads with near zero or zero friction. I have no fancy letters like ABS and ESP on my car. I can keep up the pace with the latest model cars with the works in safety features.
I do skid but on purpose to train myself in controlling the car and fun too.

Wow, that's really great. Brought back memories of the only time it happened to me. It was a car without the 'fancy' letters that you mentioned, back in '07 when I hit black ice, late night in South Island, NZ right at the top of a long street which was at a steep inclination. With near zero friction and going downhill, self preservation kicked in as soon as the car stopped responding and started having a mind of its own. With my son screaming that I'm going to hit some body, I put the car in first gear with the foot off all the pedals and held the steering firmly, pointing it very straight with minimal adjustment and got to the bottom safely as the car slid slowly without much slithering. I was fortunate there were only about 10 cars sliding around me at that time. It must have been for about 10 minutes, but with 2 young kids at the back, seemed like forever, an unforgettable experience. It was probably the only time I had an adrenaline rush for something which happened slowly.

[Indian2003]

Originally Posted by Duckdoc

I had an adrenaline rush for something which happened slowly.

Only if you panic. The most important is not to hit the brakes, then you loose both traction and steering. I would drive down in second or third gear on black ice or loose snow without braking.

For extreme cases, I carry a jar of sand with me in the winter but I have never had use for it myself. I have saved a few trucks from sliding backwards on hills.
When I drove a truck, I had a bucket of sand with a ladle with me.

It is better to reverse up an icey hill and if the car does not make it, you can always drive down again. If you reverse downhill, you have no steering.

[VKumar]

Originally Posted by Indian2003

jar of sand with me in the winter
It is better to reverse up an icey hill and if the car does not make it, you can always drive down again. If you reverse downhill, you have no steering

Thanks for sharing dear sir, I frequently visit hills and drive on the icy roads. After all the experimentation, I have reached the conclusion that either a compact 4x4 like Skoda Yeti or a nose heavy light car with slightly under inflated tyres are the best ones for ice covered narrow hilly roads.

Having read about the sand, nobody ever told this to me, but it sounds really easy and practical. Frequently when I lose grip while on slight gradient or undulations, I start following slight reverse - move ahead - slight reverse - move ahead, after 2-3 attempts the car starts moving again by gaining the traction; all this is when there are no snow chains.

That said, FWD and RWD cars demand a very different approach when we hit the icy surface, would request you to take your time and open a new thread on the tips and tricks of tackling the icy surface with 4x2 cars, there are many people like me who seek to learn from the people with a lot of practical experience of it. Let's all share our experiences and make an ice driving Bible

[locusjag]

Originally Posted by Indian2003

Driving at 90 in a 80 km zone saves you 50 seconds on a 10 km stretch with no traffic. At 100, you save 1:30 seconds and 2:03 seconds at 110 km/hour.

Is it worth risking yours and others lives to save these few seconds? These seconds saved is not even enough for a coffee.

I remember our fellow member venkyhere had uploaded an excel calculation to show that when you drive constantly at 80 Kmph, you're doing almost the same average speeds as a driver who's ripping it at 120 kmph only to take a break now and then; I think he used our toll booths on India's NHs as an example for those breaks.

But the trouble arises for the 80 kmph driver (such as myself) from slow coach lorries, autorickshaws, 2 wheelers on the expressway (the latter two categories don't even pay tolls!) that block all lanes at 40 kmph for a solid kilometer, before an overtake/pass is possible. A corner of my brain tells me that I would need to rip it for a few kilometres thereafter to make up for the lost time; and I'm too lazy to just open an excel and work out the hypothesis!

[Duckdoc]

Originally Posted by VKumar

Having read about the sand, nobody ever told this to me, but it sounds really easy and practical.

D

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandbox_(locomotive)

The concept of using sand has been used by the railways for many years. In fact, remember seeing an old black and white photo many, many years back of sand being thrown manually in front of the steam locomotive in one of our hill railways in icy conditions.

'In Indian Railway context, sanding is one of the important design and functional requirement to improve adhesion between rail and wheel during traction. The requirement has gone so deep in the background of policy makers that it is difficult to believe a traction equipment without sanding gear', as quoted fro the article below:

https://www.railelectrica.com/electr...rove-adhesion/

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by Duckdoc

The concept of using sand has been used by the railways for many years.

It's been used on roads too. At least on main roads, in GB, there are gritting trucks spreading a fine cover of grit and salt.

Excuse my complete ignorance of Northern India: I have a vague (probably ignorant) impression that one has to go up mountains to find ice/snow. Are roads there ever gritted?

[Indian2003]

Originally Posted by VKumar

I start following slight reverse - move ahead - slight reverse - move ahead, after 2-3 attempts the car starts moving again by gaining the traction; all this is when there are no snow chains.

Trams, trains and articulated busses in Norway have sand spraying equipment built into the front wheels. Everytime you brake, the front wheels are sprayed with a fine mist of sand.

This is available on trucks and busses as optional extras. There is a tank of about 50 liters of sand on the vehicle and connected to the air brakes.

The sand is not something you can dig from your garden but a fine sand like you find on the beach but made with crushed rocks or baked clay.

When I use sand, I just use a few grains for better grip. More is not better

There is even the Onspot automatic chains that is activated manually by the driver. This system is also available on the big vans like the Mercedes Sprinter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgM2LfuBW68

When I use sand, I just use a few grains for better grip. More is not better

[Rahul Rao]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

Do you drive in icy places? Even though I grew up in England, I don't have much of that skill. I wish I'd taken lessons in Northern Europe! Or visiting a UK skid rink for training would have been easier.

Icy roads are a completely different game, about 10 Yrs ago I had driven to Himachal in my Innova, and while returning from Dalhousie I just downshifted from 4 to 3 before approaching a curve, the rear axle lost traction and I stopped after a full 180* skid, my dad who was next to me came to his senses before me, and told me 'don't touch the brake get into neutral and control with only the handbrake' as we were now moving in reverse, and I could manage it and stop the car. Speed may have been just 30 or so.
In about 32 years of driving a little over 11 lakh km I have faced two accidents. First sitting next to my driver when we hit a tractor who decided to take a U turn through an illegal cutting in the divider, luckily it was hit both by our car and a KSRTC we were overtaking symultaneously. The second when I crashed and had a roll over after the LH tierod snapped in my Polo.

[haria]

Originally Posted by Indian2003

For extreme cases, I carry a jar of sand with me in the winter but I have never had use for it myself. I have saved a few trucks from sliding backwards on hills.
When I drove a truck, I had a bucket of sand with a ladle with me.

interesting information! What is to be done with the jar of sand ? pour in front of the tyre ? which tyres ? will one jar be enough for all four tyres ?

Sorry, if the question sounds dumb - I have never driven in cold weather. The coldest I would have driven would be in ooty / kodai /etc (that too only very few times).. where the temp. rarely goes below 5 or 6

[Indian2003]

Originally Posted by haria

interesting information! What is to be done with the jar of sand ? pour in front of the tyre ? which tyres ? will one jar be enough for all four tyres ?

You dont pour the sand but sprinkle a few grains in front of the tyres with drive, more like a tablespoon or even a teaspoon of sand. Ther idea is to get the wheel loose and us the momentum to drive on.

If a truck starts sliding backwards, behind the wheels with the parking brakes. You will be surprised how little you need.

You can also use Snow Grip on the tyres but this is messy and expensive to use.

[vivekgk]

Originally Posted by CEF_Beasts

I am 101% sure this particular variant of the Seltos doesn't get ESP.

Attachment 2167149

Here's the brochure for the now discontinued Anniversary Edition.
[ATTACH=Seltos-AE-Leaflet-Desktop.pdf]2167150[/ATTACH]

Well, at least this car came with an electric sunroof and LED headlamps, which as everyone knows, is more essential for us Indians, more than at least a 3 star crash rating, or ESP, or a properly engineered body.

How long will we continue to allow car makers to sell tin boxes disguised as cars?

Another thing that needs to desperately change is the "bigger vehicle always at fault" attitude of people, police and even the judiciary. If a smaller vehicle has caused the accident, then the other car driver has to be absolved of all responsibility. Not being able to brake in time to avoid an irresponsible biker, or a jaywalking pedestrian should not cost a driver years of anguish due to court appearances and possible jailtime.

Imagine that the Seltos driver had hit the biker head on and caused his death. He would be subjected to immediate mob violence, followed by police violence and bribes, his vehicle would be confiscated and left in a police yard to rot, and he would have to spend time and money on lawyers and court appearances, and at the end either himself or the insurance company would reach a settlement or a judgement in favour of the biker.

If a car/UV/truck driver has ever hit a pedestrian or a 2 wheeler, even for no fault of his own, the mob justice that follows immediately would be enough to scar him forever, and his first instinct from thereon would be to swerve to avoid, at any cost.

Now what happens to the rider/pedestrian/cart that caused such an accident? Nothing at all. 90% of the time, no one would even remember them, and they would have fled the scene, and no police would even track them down. They get away scot-free, to cause more accidents or deaths another day.

Don't.Ever.Swerve.