[caffeineAM]

Heading to the shops this morning and saw these two wheelers out on an apparent joyride. You can see the girl in yellow recording her friends going past. Seconds later they slide right into an Ertiga going across the street.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWzfuaKVtzI

Helmets definitely saved them from coming off much worse.

[The Rainmaker]

Originally Posted by mayankk

If you want safety at 150 plus, you really are not left with anything except being encased in steel and rolled off.
Indian, Japanese, korean,german, or kree, nothing will be safe at that speed. Or rated, for that matter.

Well I think you took it personal buddy. Unless you're hell bent on scrapping your car purposely, it's almost impossible to get any Japanese/German vehicle into the shape of that Mahindra in the post above. I mean if you've worked closely or even visited their design departments and seen the manufacturing process, you'll know what I mean. I speak from my experience and my long experience on working on cars of almost all companies. I'd rather not make a lose statement otherwise. I know what I'm talking about. You really don't know how dirty Indian brands play to earn that kind of money at the cost of fickle minded consumers. You don't just go and buy Jaguar Land Rover by playing it right and being a domestic manufacturer of compromised cars, trucks and buses. You either have a great wealth from a long history of Automotive business and racing championships with accolades to your name (Which is just not the case with any Indian or Korean Automakers) or you're making good money from offering cheap quality stuff to people. Ever wonder how Geely (Chinese) acquired Volvo? Food for thought.

There's a lot to read and understand about before coming to any conclusion and if almost everyone did that we won't be seeing manuals replaced with automatics or combustion engines replaced with electrics and definitely no one would ever buy such rip off brands like Tata, Mahindra, Hyundai, Kia etc. Trust me, the deeper you go the more you realize how these brands rip you off without you even knowing about it. Since I've taken apart a lot of these cars, I can tell you the low quality of replicas these companies use to build their cars. It's terrible!

[vvivek85]

My 2 cents regarding XUV7OO accident. Offlate car manufacturers' and end users' focus on safety aspect / NCAP ratings is confident inspiring, but at the same time I am worried that some drivers take these ratings very seriously and think that if they get a 5 star rated vehicle even the great Yema Dharmaraja can't get them. I am not sure if they had kept their brains back home before entering the car. I was speechless when I saw the heart of the lovely machine lying on the road, with many good drivers waiting for eternity to get this car, we have these bunch of idiots

My ground rule, whatever be the urgency, in a 4 way lane never cross 100, in a 2 way lane never cross 80, things can wait. PERIOD !! Our roads are full of surprises and you need sometime to mitigate it. Government should implement something like a speed hold in all cars to avoid it be driven beyond 120. Only way to eradicate these kinds of accidents.

[drsnt]

Originally Posted by vvivek85

Found these pictures in Facebook. No clear details on how it happened, based the little information it was a head-on collusion, Venue driver sustained minor injuries whereas Tiago driver unfortunately passed away. Driver's airbag in Tiago didn't deploy, not sure of it was due to driver's mistake or otherwise. One thing is clear, irrespective of number of safety stars the car possess, its your star that will save you on that day, drive safe.

For the records, Tiago is rated 4 stars and Venue is not tested yet.

The venue did not cause a major impact. It can be made out that the item causing major damage was verticle and small in the area at a slight right angle to the driver, either a pole or a wall corner. Venue either had an impact before or after the main crash.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by FortunerTRD

1. Alcohol
2. Speed
3. Drugs
+
4. Ego behind the wheels...

You left out basic driving skills.

Originally Posted by turbospooler

I think many of the accidents we see here are due to 3 major reasons:
1) Over-confident drivers / untrained drivers

Quite.

a) DEMONESTISATION-style scrapping of existing licenses of road users, so that everyone has to retake their tests and licenses are given to only those who have studied and at the bare minimum, road-worthy.

It's a nice idea, but is impossible to make work in practice. It would take a generation of new training of both driving instructors and the all-important test examiners to bring about change. The same people, as is, are just going to teach the same stuff and pass the same same stuff.

It is a change that would take years to be effective. I have only one thing to say about that: Why not start now? Well, first, the folks in charge, political and administrative, have to be taught to care about death and injury on the roads. There's not much sign of that right now.

PS: I know, none of these initiatives will be possible, so, you can consider this as a rant.

You went on to mention some very good and practical technical ideas. Sadly, yes, the truth is, we can but dream.

Originally Posted by mayankk

If you want safety at 150 plus, you really are not left with anything except being encased in steel and rolled off.

It's been mentioned that that leaves you hitting the steel at that speed. There is no way to be safe. I suppose some sort of seat-belt/airbag technology might be possible.

Maybe "evolution" should be left to take its course
/cynical

[sunsetorange]

Originally Posted by RGK

Another factor is that the car is new, which tempts you to accelerate more. Additionally, there's a probability that they tested ADAS while driving quickly.

Photos of the detached rear door on social media show it is an AX5. No ADAS there to be tested I think.

[OffRoadFun]

Originally Posted by RGK

Around 3 p.m. today, this accident occurred on the Tirupur-Madurai route before Koduvai Village, which is close to the town of Dharapuram.

At a high rate of speed (>150), the XUV700 crossed the lane and struck the approaching bus. Fortunately, it was a bus. All of the occupants, who were young adults in their 30s, perished, and the XUV's engine is out on the road. Due to the hit of the XUV700, the bus's front tyre was torn off.

Apparently, one of the passengers in XUV700 survived. Great but almost unbelievable!

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...w/93383146.cms

Kishorkumar, however, escaped with injuries!

[StopUnderrides]

Originally Posted by The Rainmaker

... no one would ever buy such rip off brands like Tata, Mahindra, Hyundai, Kia etc. Trust me, the deeper you go the more you realize how these brands rip you off without you even knowing about it. Since I've taken apart a lot of these cars, I can tell you the low quality of replicas these companies use to build their cars. It's terrible!

Every car manufacturer adopts a "satisficing" approach to safety to cut costs. Meaning they will only design a car as strong as the regulations demand.
- Even in the US, initially IIHS had a small overlap crash test only for driver side. Then they found that cars performed much poorly in the passenger side small overlap test. Once they included that as part of ratings the passenger side automatically became stronger.
- Or take FMVSS 301 that tests for fuel tank breach due to rear impact. Earlier the test was done at 40kph and later the standard was upgraded to withstand a 80kph rear impact from a similar sized car. If you look at injuries in later cars vs earlier cars due to rear impact there's a clear difference
The Germans you are talking about are famous for the Volkswagen emissions scandal. If everything could be decided based on quality of "design" as you say, there would be no need for destructive testing through crash tests.

We've had enough of non-scientific and subjective evaluations like "door closes with a resounding thud which indicates solid build quality" or "it's a German".
At least M&M sent it's made for India XUV 700 to GNCAP and it got a 5 star rating there. For XUV 700 they have publicly declared the % of Ultra High Strength Steel, Advanced High Strength Steel used in the Body in White of the "sold in India" vehicle as well as the torsional stiffness of the vehicle and # welds per unit length etc. No other company has gone to that level of transparency except Volvo which also publishes these % numbers.

[Bhargav7]

Originally Posted by The Rainmaker

Well I think you took it personal buddy. Unless you're hell bent on scrapping your car purposely, it's almost impossible to get any Japanese/German vehicle into the shape of that Mahindra in the post above. I mean if you've worked closely or even visited their design departments and seen the manufacturing process, you'll know what I mean.

Suzuki is a Japanese brand. And we know their focus (or lack of it) on safety. I have not personally worked in any automobile companies, but based on what we have been seeing recently, Indian companies have improved a lot on their products. Comparing them to Suzuki in terms of safety is quite unfair.

As to well built German cars, they are obviously safer, and at the same time, way more expensive. But I highly doubt if any German company can match Tata or Mahindra at the latter's price point. We will have to wait and see how good Taigun fares in GNCAP tests to have a comparable.

[The Rainmaker]

Originally Posted by StopUnderrides

Every car manufacturer adopts a "satisficing" approach to safety to cut costs. Meaning they will only design a car as strong as the regulations demand.
- Even in the US, initially IIHS had a small overlap crash test only for driver side. Then they found that cars performed much poorly in the passenger side small overlap test. Once they included that as part of ratings the passenger side automatically became stronger.
- Or take FMVSS 301 that tests for fuel tank breach due to rear impact. Earlier the test was done at 40kph and later the standard was upgraded to withstand a 80kph rear impact from a similar sized car. If you look at injuries in later cars vs earlier cars due to rear impact there's a clear difference
The Germans you are talking about are famous for the Volkswagen emissions scandal. If everything could be decided based on quality of "design" as you say, there would be no need for destructive testing through crash tests.

We've had enough of non-scientific and subjective evaluations like "door closes with a resounding thud which indicates solid build quality" or "it's a German".
At least M&M sent it's made for India XUV 700 to GNCAP and it got a 5 star rating there. For XUV 700 they have publicly declared the % of Ultra High Strength Steel, Advanced High Strength Steel used in the Body in White of the "sold in India" vehicle as well as the torsional stiffness of the vehicle and # welds per unit length etc. No other company has gone to that level of transparency except Volvo which also publishes these % numbers.

You know anyone can quote those numbers. A lot of Made in India products come printed with "Export Quality" or "High Quality" on their flimsy boxes while they're of laughable quality . They can publish anything because who's gonna ask here in India? Also, those numbers mean nothing if the material being used is not in the right place. I can build a tank like vehicle but it would still be a piece of junk if I didn't reinforce it at the right places. They DON'T mention that!

We don't have proactive critics who would actually tear down a car to prove them wrong. In fact our so called reviewers on YouTube just read out a Brochure and call it a "Review" and there are viewers/commenters impressed by his skill of reading out a brochure . I mean seriously, come on man. I'd rather take those numbers with a grain of salt unless Tata/Mahindra is willing to supply a certificate with those numbers and VIN of the car printed clearly for every car being sold so that they can be challenged later on in case of an unfortunate event like this one above. This may be extreme but that's what you need if buying from an Indian Manufacturer since their manufacturing practices are just not standardized.

I've seen some panels being hand painted a couple of years back at their factory. I'd rather stray away from such unethical brands who would do anything to make a quick buck!

Originally Posted by Bhargav7

Suzuki is a Japanese brand. And we know their focus (or lack of it) on safety. I have not personally worked in any automobile companies, but based on what we have been seeing recently, Indian companies have improved a lot on their products. Comparing them to Suzuki in terms of safety is quite unfair.

As to well built German cars, they are obviously safer, and at the same time, way more expensive. But I highly doubt if any German company can match Tata or Mahindra at the latter's price point. We will have to wait and see how good Taigun fares in GNCAP tests to have a comparable.

First of all, Suzuki in India (Or 'Maruti' Suzuki) is not even offering (Quality wise) what they offer in the rest of the world (as Suzuki). Secondly, they have a different USP here - Lightweight, Budget Friendly and High Mileage. Had they entered India as Suzuki, you'd have seen much better quality overall and probably a different set of models as well. It wasn't until 2003 that they had the chance to control the lineup as they wanted to and now they're just capitalizing on a successful recipe that worked for them.

You said that Indian companies have improved a lot. Well, it's not called improving. It's called copying and still they can't even do that properly. They will take another 100 years (If at all) to even develop the supply chain and quality policies being followed by the German and Japanese Giants. I work hard to earn my money and I'm not gonna just throw it away at a replica just because they have 'improved' but still not where my 'benchmark' is. Foreign brands may be expensive (Due to taxes and duties) but give them the same concession and subsidies as Indian Brands, then let's see how they even survive. They're just surviving due to the government support and partially because there are some uninformed Make in India lovers buying their vehicles, not because they have anything special to offer. Please visit any Japanese Factory once and then visit one of these Indian Manufacturers. You'll know what I'm talking about. YouTube videos will only show what they want to show. The reality is totally different.

[Sran]

Originally Posted by The Rainmaker

They falsify all their ratings and actually cut costs for the road going variants.. Tells me the metal and supports being used are either non existent or made of butter.

I mean if you've worked closely or even visited their design departments and seen the manufacturing process, you'll know what I mean. I speak from my experience and my long experience on working on cars of almost all companies. I'd rather not make a lose statement otherwise. I know what I'm talking about. You really don't know how dirty Indian brands play to earn that kind of money at the cost of fickle minded consumers. Trust me, the deeper you go the more you realize how these brands rip you off without you even knowing about it. Since I've taken apart a lot of these cars, I can tell you the low quality of replicas these companies use to build their cars.

They can publish anything because who's gonna ask here in India? Also, those numbers mean nothing if the material being used is not in the right place.

It's called copying and still they can't even do that properly. They will take another 100 years (If at all) to even develop the supply chain and quality policies being followed by the German and Japanese Giants...but give them the same concession and subsidies as Indian Brands, then let's see how they even survive. The reality is totally different.

In your last few posts in thread you have been speaking as if you are an authority on manufacturing prcess but you are not backing it with proof. Do you have any info about some metalurgical shenanigan? Do you offer any proof about design changes from blueprint to factory production? You claim to have worked with many top OEM's but you are yet to share any privileged info, please don't put out word salads.

Till then everything you are saying is merely a conspiracy and I am all for conspiracy but you got to back it up with some documentation. Remember we have no way of knowing what is going on behind the back unless some whistleblower comes forward but you seem to have some information which is not out in public domain, do share it and make it known else it will across as some dirt being thrown due to malice. And please, trust me bro will not work out.

If not I will urge mods to delete your posts for unfounded claims to malign the companies and this forum.

[StopUnderrides]

Originally Posted by The Rainmaker

A lot of Made in India products come printed with "Export Quality" or "High Quality" on their flimsy boxes while they're of laughable quality . They can publish anything because who's gonna ask here in India? Also, those numbers mean nothing if the material being used is not in the right place. I can build a tank like vehicle but it would still be a piece of junk if I didn't reinforce it at the right places. They DON'T mention that!

There's a difference between products sold in a toy shop where you can call it "Export Quality" or on a marketplace like Amazon and a car that has to pass several regulations. After publishing these numbers in public they can't go back on them. This is an interview with R. Velusamy the Head of R&D at Mahindra who walks us through the Body in White. Mahindra has engineers from IITs which are as good as any other European institute. So not sure why you assume they won't know where to put the right material. Watch the interview-they do mention where they have put in the different materials

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bztfrYCfraE

I'd rather take those numbers with a grain of salt unless Tata/Mahindra is willing to supply a certificate with those numbers and VIN of the car printed clearly for every car being sold so that they can be challenged later on in case of an unfortunate event like this one above. This may be extreme but that's what you need if buying from an Indian Manufacturer since their manufacturing practices are just not standardized.

Did you ask for such a certificate from Volkswagen or Skoda? Also read my comment above. Public acknowledgment in an official interview is deemed to be as good as an official statement legally

I've seen some panels being hand painted a couple of years back at their factory. I'd rather stray away from such unethical brands who would do anything to make a quick buck!

You seem to have a prejudice against Indian brands for some reason. Maybe you visited the factory 40 years back. Now a days factories are automated. This is a forum where discussions are based on facts and data rather than speculation and prejudices. Please talk about facts.

[Dry Ice]

Originally Posted by The Rainmaker

You really don't know how dirty Indian brands play to earn that kind of money at the cost of fickle minded consumers.

Isn’t this true for any and every for-profit company out there, not just Indian? They operate on a single point agenda of maximising share holder value/profits.

2 examples which were widely publicised, covered in the media -

• VW (German) cheated on emissions tests.
  
• Takata (Japanese) provided faulty airbags to almost every manufacturer out there.

It’s perfectly fine to have an opinion and vote with your wallet, quite another to make sensational claims without much data to back them up.

[vegitakarthik]

Originally Posted by pixantz

No point in blaming either the XUV people or the bus driver because we do not know any detail about who or what caused this.

The model involved in the accident looks like Ax5 variant based on alloys and interior seats. That takes ADAS out of the picture. Not sure If it is Petrol/Diesel. If its petrol then there is no ESP available which is a life saver and could have helped them take control of the vehicle. Not sure why Mahindra would skip such a important safety feature for 200 Bhp 1.8 ton crossover while patting themselves for receiving 5 star. Tata offers the same as standard for Harrier/Safari/Nexon trio.

Originally Posted by The Rainmaker

Feel sorry for the occupants, but this is a live example of why NEVER to buy a Tata/Mahindra or any Indian vehicle.

Respectfully Sir, please don't post unverified claims here based on your gut feeling. That's a head on collision between a 15+ ton bus and 1.8 ton SUV at speeds above 150 KPH. That says it all. Is there a proof to your claim about stripped down road going variants. If so please share it here for everyone.

[The Rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Sran

In your last few posts in thread you have been speaking as if you are an authority on manufacturing prcess but you are not backing it with proof. Do you have any info about some metalurgical shenanigan? Do you offer any proof about design changes from blueprint to factory production? You claim to have worked with many top OEM's but you are yet to share any privileged info, please don't put out word salads.

Till then everything you are saying is merely a conspiracy and I am all for conspiracy but you got to back it up with some documentation. Remember we have no way of knowing what is going on behind the back unless some whistleblower comes forward but you seem to have some information which is not out in public domain, do share it and make it known else it will across as some dirt being thrown due to malice. And please, trust me bro will not work out.

If not I will urge mods to delete your posts for unfounded claims to malign the companies and this forum.

Well buddy, I'd love to do just that. Unfortunately, I'm not allowed to take pictures when I visit certain manufacturing facilities and certain areas where actually the hanky panky is going on. I have some dear friends working at these facilities but obviously I can't make them lose their job by quoting exactly what is going on. But still I tried to give a hint of what to expect when buying from these brands. Rest, it all depends on you to believe or not believe me. It's a free country, I'm entitled to my opinion as you are to yours. I won't go too far to even tell you to visit these facilities.

Just start servicing your own cars and some of your friends' rides too as a favor. You'll come across a lot of different makes and within 6 months my words will become a fact for you. You need to get your hands dirty to find out the truth . From low quality bolts with snapped heads to paper thin materials, it's all in there for your to see and experience when you do your own work. Cheers!